EU Bans gender-base insurances

[madmax]

Which would be different from say VISA, AMEX , Sears, Loblaws ,CdDN Tire.....why would that be fair? I do know they employ a ton of assets to try and catch fraud, but in many cases spending $1000 to cathc a ten cent fraud is kind of silly.

Credit cards are another protected industry, like insurance, and if my card is fraudulently used, they swallow it. Which is exactly the opposite of what your have stated your industry does. You stated, u take the risk for autothefts, then pass on the Risk costs back onto the consumer regardless of the massive profits the Industry wallows in.

See above comment. I have no idea what you are attempting to convey.

I am suggesting that your sample space is the Entire driving population of Ontario. The % of Fraud is no higher or lower then the % of fraud within your own industry. (Ssshh, you probably think you have no crooks within the industry).

Everyone is a good insurance person like you...

I could only wish...

Then pay more attention. They are healthy for the most part no doubt due to the FSCO (Fin Services commish) and the regulatory boards. They dictate holdings and assests to be covered for the risks they have on the books. One of the reasons they are mostly healthy.

32 insurance companies have either failed or been wound up by FSCO since 1979. Thems the facts.

Heavily heavily regulated does not allow for making their case

Holy shit, thats it ? 32 companies within a 40 year period? Holy sheepshit, I have seen more companies in on city close within a 3 month period then u listed within 40 years.

Life is good.

Enjoy it and Respect it.

[madmax]

My Nephew went to live with his mom in South Carolina. He has no Health Insurance. He got a job, bought a car, insured it himself, bought a motorcycle, insured it himself, bought a car and insured it himself.

He was 16 through to 20 years of age when He bought his bike for $3200, his truck for $2000, his care for $1200. His insurance for all vehicles was Under $800.. This was in 2002. Because he was a flight trainer and the shit hit the fan regarding foreign flight trainers etc.... he had to return to Canada. And yes, many instructors are that young.

Insurance for his $2000 truck here in Ontario was $5700. They wouldn't touch his bike. His car was $4000.

Needless to say, he sold all his vehicles and in his mind Ontario Insurance companies can F/OFF.

Its hard to disagree with someone trying to earn a living.

Meanwhile its friggin nonsense that companies can't hire people under the age of 25 to drive for them. Having a license for 7 years is valueless. Its preventing our youth from getting a job, delivering autoparts, bottle water..etc. This is bullshit. And a person who is eligible to go to Afghanistan at 18 but not able to drive in Ontario to earn a living is bullshit too.

This risk aversion is out of control. You have a protected industry which makes great monies. The purpose is not all about the poor hard done by insurance company.

On another note, I give Guyser all the credit in the world.

He defends the position of Satan with class and consideration to all those who post. Insurance people aren't the most loved bunch by the general public.

But I will hold off on any public hangings for the foreseeable future

[guyser]

Not true. When I first got my insurance policy here I had to keep all the coverages up to BC standards because my car was a lease from a Canadian dealership. The cost of insurance was still only about 1/2 as much as it was in BC. I was paying ~$2400 per year in BC, about $1300 per year when I moved here and re-insured with an American company, and about $850/year after I bought out the car and downgraded the coverages.

Fair enough, but understand you had a much more limited policy versus what you had in BC.

The CDN dealership wanted you to carry the same liability limits to prevent them from having to top up a liability claim, but they certainly did not require that you keep the same Accident Benefits as you had in BC.

Washinton State insurers are required to offer you PIP , but you can reject it. It covers $10,000 for reasonable medical expenses. In BC it is $260,000.

Loss of income, $200 per week, maxed out at $10,400 , in BC = $300 per week to a max of $1m.

It gets worse from there but I think this illustrates my point.

Anyone who thinks car insurance in BC is somehow a good deal is in denial, period.

Im inclined to agree, however knowing the amount of claims and the costs associated it isnt terrible.

Which is how often? I've paid insurance for about 7 years, totaling somewhere around $14,000 (almost as much as my car cost) and have yet to ever make a claim. Yes, yes, only anecdotal blah blah blah.

Well, first off you asked how often does one get a payout. From that I understood that to mean "after a claim" , not how often does one get money for nothing back to the insured. So my answer is never.

You paid to insure the risk of wrecking your car ,they took your money and the risk , you didnt wreck (which is good) but you are upsst that you didnt get any money? Come on, whats with that?

So your view of "responsibility" is throwing money away to an insurance company? I don't see anything irresponsible about saving money by having a higher deductible.

No my view is not that.

My view is one has risks in life, and assets to protect, such as a home vacation home et al.

So to keep my assets safe I insure my car for a million dollars liability or more so that in the event of a bad crash and I am sued , the monies paid are from my insurer, not from the sale of assets to pay it off.

With $50,000 liability , by the time one get to the discovery phase of a suit culminating from an accident , the lawyers would turn to you and say, well, our $50,000 fee has been used up. So, how do you want to pay us from here on in?

[guyser]

Credit cards are another protected industry, like insurance, and if my card is fraudulently used, they swallow it. Which is exactly the opposite of what your have stated your industry does. You stated, u take the risk for autothefts, then pass on the Risk costs back onto the consumer regardless of the massive profits the Industry wallows in.

Im not in agreement for a couple of reasons.

One, VISA etc do pass on the risk no matter how we look at it. Thgey use the loss to establish interest rates , they use to increase the retailer costs to access VISA etc (some can be 4%, other industries may be charged more % point s)

Careful on that massive profits thing, especially in auto insurance. Canadian property and casualty insurers writing Ontario auto lost an astounding $907 million in 2009.

Yeah, $907Million. And now we see rates rise. Took the lawyers and re-hab houses 5 years to figure out how to bilk the system and they did, thus the changes last September.

I am suggesting that your sample space is the Entire driving population of Ontario. The % of Fraud is no higher or lower then the % of fraud within your own industry. (Ssshh, you probably think you have no crooks within the industry).

Everyone is a good insurance person like you...

I could only wish...

I am under no illusions about crooks scams and what not. I see it everyday, get calls from client whom I damn well know are either outright fraudulent or padding a claim. In cases such as that I can only relay my concerns via telephone, ceretainly not in writing should the case get to court and I am wrong well then I am up the creek.

I know damn well there is more than a few claims adjusters who are less than honest (nice english huh?) and live in wonderful houses that defy explaination considering the income (thats one I know for sure about) And it is a catch 22 for me. If I biotch or report the claim adjuster, he or she no doubts sticks it to my next client , or worse our entire book.

Holy shit, thats it ? 32 companies within a 40 year period? Holy sheepshit, I have seen more companies in on city close within a 3 month period then u listed within 40 years.

Life is good.

Enjoy it and Respect it.

32...yeah, just goes to show that FSCO has their finger on the companies ensuring they have sufficient re3serves to pay down claims etc. The ins co's are heavily regulated , from rates applied (and NO exceptions since penalties are exhorbitant) to rules to how to apply for an increase , whcih by the way is a long tedious process that takes a min of 6 months and must include a presentation as to why you want higher rates.

[guyser]

My Nephew went to live with his mom in South Carolina. He has no Health Insurance. He got a job, bought a car, insured it himself, bought a motorcycle, insured it himself, bought a car and insured it himself.

He was 16 through to 20 years of age when He bought his bike for $3200, his truck for $2000, his care for $1200. His insurance for all vehicles was Under $800.. This was in 2002. Because he was a flight trainer and the shit hit the fan regarding foreign flight trainers etc.... he had to return to Canada. And yes, many instructors are that young.

Insurance for his $2000 truck here in Ontario was $5700. They wouldn't touch his bike. His car was $4000.

Ok it seems high but there could well be valid reasons for that. (you knew that was coming didnt you? )

Tickets, lapse in insurance (that one bugs me no end) and biggest of all is the mandatory aspects of our policies. When a young kid is injured , we are on the hook for a long time and could in some cases do.....

1) fix his house so he can be mobile (injured for life)

2) Supply a housekeeper for a yr or more

3) pay someone to cut his lawn etc

4) pay his wwages to a max of $480 'til the $1M max is hit

5) Provide alternative transport

6) Pay a family memebr to live in

Needless to say, he sold all his vehicles and in his mind Ontario Insurance companies can F/OFF.

Its hard to disagree with someone trying to earn a living.

I am not surprised he had to sell. If he lived outside Toronto it very well could have been more affrodable, or in your parlance less of a rip off

Meanwhile its friggin nonsense that companies can't hire people under the age of 25 to drive for them. Having a license for 7 years is valueless. Its preventing our youth from getting a job, delivering autoparts, bottle water..etc. This is bullshit. And a person who is eligible to go to Afghanistan at 18 but not able to drive in Ontario to earn a living is bullshit too.

This is one I deal with daily. Yes they can drive a truck and be hired, but we do charge for the increased risk.In the caase of pisk up drivers I lean more towards you, however a lot of fleeets have 5tons, dumps, semi's and honestly an under 25 does not have the right experience for my liking. Yea yea, how do they get it then- I know thats a catch.

But I will hold off on any public hangings for the foreseeable future

I live for another day !!

However if you change your mind let me know, there a re a few clients who would likely want to help knot the rope.

[bush_cheney2004]

Ok it seems high but there could well be valid reasons for that.

LOL! Ya think? Now I understand why many of the home buyers and renters on those cheesy HGTV productions out of Ontario always ask about proximity to public transit. At those rates, I would sell all my vehicles too. What a scam!

[Bonam]

Fair enough, but understand you had a much more limited policy versus what you had in BC.

The CDN dealership wanted you to carry the same liability limits to prevent them from having to top up a liability claim, but they certainly did not require that you keep the same Accident Benefits as you had in BC.

Washinton State insurers are required to offer you PIP , but you can reject it. It covers $10,000 for reasonable medical expenses. In BC it is $260,000.

Loss of income, $200 per week, maxed out at $10,400 , in BC = $300 per week to a max of $1m.

Actually that's exactly what they required me to carry (bodily injury liability), with a $2 million limit in fact, not $1 million.

It gets worse from there but I think this illustrates my point.

Since your facts are incorrect, it doesn't.

Well, first off you asked how often does one get a payout. From that I understood that to mean "after a claim" , not how often does one get money for nothing back to the insured. So my answer is never.

No, I did not mean after a claim. I meant how often in general. How worthwhile is it to pay $2000-3000 per year in insurance (in BC) if on average you have a claim once every several years that probably costs less than 1 year of your insurance? And that's what most claims are: repairs for minor damage due to parking lot incidents, vandalism, low speed impacts, emergency road assistance, etc. Again, insurance is by definition a losing proposition: the average payer will pay more into it than they will ever get back, or else insurance companies could not exist.

You paid to insure the risk of wrecking your car ,they took your money and the risk , you didnt wreck (which is good) but you are upsst that you didnt get any money? Come on, whats with that?

I would have rather kept the risk myself and had $14,000 more in my bank account, if I was allowed to do so by law. The only reason many many people buy insurance is to comply with the law. In the US, the cost of complying with the law is much lower.

So to keep my assets safe I insure my car for a million dollars liability or more so that in the event of a bad crash and I am sued , the monies paid are from my insurer, not from the sale of assets to pay it off.

And that's fine, but you pay much more for the same insurance, and furthermore you have reduced options if you wanted to lower how much you are insured for, if you are in BC. I'm not saying insurance is not worthwhile, but what I am saying, is that in BC you pay a lot more for the exact same coverage.

Edited March 8, 2011 by Bonam

[guyser]

Actually that's exactly what they required me to carry (bodily injury liability), with a $2 million limit in fact, not $1 million.

Bonam, you are equating apples with linguine.

BI Liability is entirely seperate from Accident Benefits. The dealership has no say in requiring higher AB but they do have a right to request set limits as respects Liability.

ince your facts are incorrect, it doesn't.

You werent on the correct page to begin with so your assertion is off base.

No, I did not mean after a claim. I meant how often in general.

How often does Safeway send you a cheque? Same goes for your avg PUC , or Exxon? Probably never. Same as insurance companies. You will get paid subject to an allowable claim.

How worthwhile is it to pay $2000-3000 per year in insurance (in BC) if on average you have a claim once every several years that probably costs less than 1 year of your insurance? And that's what most claims are: repairs for minor damage due to parking lot incidents, vandalism, low speed impacts, emergency road assistance, etc. Again, insurance is by definition a losing proposition: the average payer will pay more into it than they will ever get back, or else insurance companies could not exist.

The average cost for insurance in BC is $1324 (2005--so it has gone up a bit) so perhaps the rates you quote are for effect, but that aside, and you are right most claims are minor, but I want assets protected in case of the serious claim.

A losing proposition is not how I see it. I instruct clients to self insure to high degrees in order to maximize savings , but in the end they get what they want, asset protection and security. YMMV. Its all personal.

And that's fine, but you pay much more for the same insurance, and furthermore you have reduced options if you wanted to lower how much you are insured for, if you are in BC. I'm not saying insurance is not worthwhile, but what I am saying, is that in BC you pay a lot more for the exact same coverage.

When in fact you dont. Sorry, but the facts speak.

[guyser]

LOL! Ya think? Now I understand why many of the home buyers and renters on those cheesy HGTV productions out of Ontario always ask about proximity to public transit.

Geez, you look north for entertainment now huh?

At those rates, I would sell all my vehicles too. What a scam!

Not a scam but preudent for many. The cost of keeping, insuring, gas etc is expensive anywhere.("cept Venezuala)

The highest average commute time in North America is Toronto. Live in inner city TO and you bet you want the transit option.

[bush_cheney2004]

Geez, you look north for entertainment now huh?

Sure do....American cable can get those government supported productions out of Canada for a song. "Ontario" and "Canada" are plastered all over the closing credits.

Not a scam but preudent for many. The cost of keeping, insuring, gas etc is expensive anywhere.("cept Venezuala)

It's a scam when the government helps the insurance companies jack people like that. If I want to pay for higher coverage or buy an umbrella policy, that's my choice.

The highest average commute time in North America is Toronto. Live in inner city TO and you bet you want the transit option.

Hell...live anywhere in Ontario or BC and it would still be an attractive option based on those kind of insurance rates. Getting hosed big time!

[guyser]

Sure do....American cable can get those government supported productions out of Canada for a song. "Ontario" and "Canada" are plastered all over the closing credits.

Good! Then they are selling them and making money.

We even buy some of the state supported shows from America too!

It's a scam when the government helps the insurance companies jack people like that. If I want to pay for higher coverage or buy an umbrella policy, that's my choice.

You mean like the govt helps the insurance companies the same way in the States? Ok...

Hell...live anywhere in Ontario or BC and it would still be an attractive option based on those kind of insurance rates. Getting hosed big time!

Outside the GTA the rates drop significantly , thus alllowing rural people to avoid transit (if there is any to begin with)

[bush_cheney2004]

Good! Then they are selling them and making money.

We even buy some of the state supported shows from America too!

Cool...I like to watch Mike Holmes' show because all of the measurements spoken are in English units.....not metric!

You mean like the govt helps the insurance companies the same way in the States? Ok...

Yes, but not at the levels in BC or Ontaririario.

Outside the GTA the rates drop significantly , thus alllowing rural people to avoid transit (if there is any to begin with)

I sure hope so...the rate esperience quoted by Bonam are extreme hose city!

[Bonam]

A losing proposition is not how I see it. I instruct clients to self insure to high degrees in order to maximize savings , but in the end they get what they want, asset protection and security. YMMV. Its all personal.

So you are an insurance agent? No wonder you are defending high insurance rates

[guyser]

So you are an insurance agent?

Nope , I am a insurance broker

No wonder you are defending high insurance rates

Im not defending high rates (not entirely), just explaining the hows and whys.

Edited March 8, 2011 by guyser

[guyser]

I sure hope so...the rate esperience quoted by Bonam are extreme hose city!

I would suggest the rates quoted are not the whole story , but to get to the bottom one would have to ask him questions that I cannot ask in this forum.

Let me suggest that Vancouver is cheaper to get insurance than Toronto. Anyone in the $2-3000 range in TO has a bit less than stellar driving habit, and /or some underwriting criteria that boosts the rate.

Bonam, in no way am I suggesting you have been less than honest, but perhaps unaware of the u/w reasons behind such a high rate.

[Oleg Bach]

Is the young farm boy who has been driving a tractor since he was six - the same as the Honda driving black kid from the projects...when it comes to being unfit for reasonable insurance? I think not - I also see young woman who are just as aggressive and dangerous as young males..Insurance should not discriminate....They do because there is profit in it...Have an accident and the first thing the company will tell you is that particular thing is not covered...50% of the people will simply go away and not collect...The more persistent will! The insurance companies are dishonest..time to have them actually provide a good service to all equally............OR - just get rid of this nasty taxing system that only grants mobility to those who can pay the big bucks.

[guyser]

Is the young farm boy who has been driving a tractor since he was six - the same as the Honda driving black kid from the projects...when it comes to being unfit for reasonable insurance?

No not at all.Assuming the young black kid , as you so eloquently put it not to mention no relevance in him being black or white or yellow, has insurance he would have a record one could prove. As for the farm boy driving a tractor , he would not have ny vefiable insurance since we dont take names of drivers for tractor driving.

See how that works?

I think not - I also see young woman who are just as aggressive and dangerous as young males..Insurance should not discriminate

Ergo the rates for young women are climbing faster than young men.

Have an accident and the first thing the company will tell you is that particular thing is not covered

Not true. Unless of course the driver was drunk and there is no lien on the car he will SOL ,but thats only fair

just get rid of this nasty taxing system that only grants mobility to those who can pay the big bucks.

Driving is not a right, and its an expensive proposition no matter who or where it is.No tax on auto, only home insurance.

[Bonam]

Bonam, in no way am I suggesting you have been less than honest, but perhaps unaware of the u/w reasons behind such a high rate.

Umm, because I happened to be a male in my early 20s?

Edited March 9, 2011 by Bonam

[August1991]

The only reason most people buy car insurance is because it is required by law, and the only real consideration is how cheaply you can get it, not what it supposedly covers.

That's a bone-headed comment, Bonam. If you drove a Lamborghini, I bet that you would have more insurance than required by law.

As to third party liability, I'm sure that Mrs Bonam and the little Bonams (?) are reassured to know that I have insurance in case I run you over.

Which would be different from say VISA, AMEX , Sears, Loblaws ,CdDN Tire.....why would that be fair?

In fact, different people pay different rates of interest on their credit cards and lines of credit.

The problem with starting out at the same rate is it will mean a rise in premiums for older drivers to compensate for the lack of premium for the new kid driving.

True, and here I agree with you guyser.

----

At issue here is the obvious fact that different drivers pose different risks to insurance companies. Unfortunately, insurance companies don't know which drivers pose which risks and so the companies must rely on unchangeable "signals" that form proxies of risk. Sex, age, driving experience, type of car, place of residence, use of car. These proxies are not perfect and maybe in the future, insurance companies will use genetic testing to determine reaction times or predilection to aggressive driving.

IMHO, in our private affairs (eg. between myself and my insurance company), we should be free to discriminate as we see fit. The State however should not have such freedom. In a civilized society, the State should never discriminate in certain ways.

----

I haven't read this EU decision. At first glance, it seems that female drivers will be subsidizing male drivers. On second thought, there will be unintended consequences: more European male drivers will become uninsurable and so will drive illegally without insurance.

Edited March 9, 2011 by August1991

[Wilber]

Not true. When I first got my insurance policy here I had to keep all the coverages up to BC standards because my car was a lease from a Canadian dealership. The cost of insurance was still only about 1/2 as much as it was in BC. I was paying ~$2400 per year in BC, about $1300 per year when I moved here and re-insured with an American company, and about $850/year after I bought out the car and downgraded the coverages.

What are you insuring? I pay around $1200 for each of my vehicles in BC for collision, comprehensive and 3 million liability. My collector car costs about $275 for the same coverage.

[Bonam]

What are you insuring? I pay around $1200 for each of my vehicles in BC for collision, comprehensive and 3 million liability. My collector car costs about $275 for the same coverage.

A 2008 Honda Fit.

[guyser]

Umm, because I happened to be a male in my early 20s?

That explains a lot. Thanks.

So in fact you are in the high risk category, you are also quite young which means ins co would pay you for a long time in case of a bad accident (assuming you were back in canada).The risk is commensurate with the premium based on stats of people your age. And this is bad?

Being male and in your 20's would seem to cinfirm why you would be so casual on the protection of assets thing. Thats no slag, but in the future I would bet that your view point will get modified.

Edited March 9, 2011 by guyser

[Bonam]

That explains a lot. Thanks.

So in fact you are in the high risk category, you are also quite young which means ins co would pay you for a long time in case of a bad accident (assuming you were back in canada).The risk is commensurate with the premium based on stats of people your age. And this is bad?

Look, you insurance dudes are free to profile me however you like and quote me ridiculous rates. Just don't be surprised when, if I find better deals elsewhere, I speak up about it. With my company here I got a 30% discount for being a grad student with a GPA above 3.4. Apparently that's a profile of people that drive more safely, one that ICBC doesn't take into account.

[guyser]

Look, you insurance dudes are free to profile me however you like and quote me ridiculous rates.

I understand the frustration. Its just that i dont thihnk you grasp the magnitude of coverage you would receive, the dollars spent on your behalf as mandated by the Ministry in the case of a serious accident.

It is not a personal afront.

Just don't be surprised when, if I find better deals elsewhere, I speak up about it. With my company here I got a 30% discount for being a grad student with a GPA above 3.4. Apparently that's a profile of people that drive more safely, one that ICBC doesn't take into account.

And there is the beauty of the free market system. You can pick and choose who you want.....well , here you can anyway.

Discount is for GPA of 3 or better. ? Nice gig, and congrats !

In Ontario a 40% discount is given to students on their parents policy is they are 100K away at school.

[Wilber]

I would have rather kept the risk myself and had $14,000 more in my bank account, if I was allowed to do so by law. The only reason many many people buy insurance is to comply with the law. In the US, the cost of complying with the law is much lower.

You miss the point. In such a case it is the person you hit who would be taking the risk. If you cripple them for life and they lose their ability to support themselves, $14,000 won't be much of a consolation to them and the real costs could end up bankrupting you for life. What are you going to do if a court gives them a 2M settlement for injuries and lost income? What is your victim going to do if you can't pay? Mandatory liability insurance is required to protect your potential victims, not you.

By law you are only required to carry $200K liability insurance in BC which must be purchased from ICBC. Anything over and above that can be purchased from a private insurer. That is what I do. That initial 200K is the biggest hit because that is where the biggest cost to an insurance company will be if you are at fault in an collision.

Edited March 9, 2011 by Wilber