scouterjim Posted February 22, 2011 Report Share Posted February 22, 2011 Why are the Liberals so set against Canada upgrading her defence forces? The NDP we understand, given they have always been anti-military. Do the Liberals want this country to fall behind in defence? Do they honestly think Canada is safe from any attack? They opposed a naval upgrade. They opposed new helicopters. They sent troops to Afghanistan, then blame the Harper administration for the troops being there. Why do the Liberals hate the military? Canada has a proud military history. The Canadians were the most feared troops on the Western Front in WW I. The Germans dreaded meeting the Canadians after D-Day in WW II (they ran away from Dieppe as the Canadians closed in in 1944). Why do the Liberals want to destroy something of pride to Canada? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWiz Posted February 22, 2011 Report Share Posted February 22, 2011 Why are the Liberals so set against Canada upgrading her defence forces? The NDP we understand, given they have always been anti-military. Do the Liberals want this country to fall behind in defence? Do they honestly think Canada is safe from any attack? They opposed a naval upgrade. They opposed new helicopters. They sent troops to Afghanistan, then blame the Harper administration for the troops being there. Why do the Liberals hate the military? Canada has a proud military history. The Canadians were the most feared troops on the Western Front in WW I. The Germans dreaded meeting the Canadians after D-Day in WW II (they ran away from Dieppe as the Canadians closed in in 1944). Why do the Liberals want to destroy something of pride to Canada? Been there done that... Scroll through the threads, find it, and enjoy a couple of hours of reading it, it's rather a good read if I say so myself... I might even link you to it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicky10013 Posted February 22, 2011 Report Share Posted February 22, 2011 Why are the Liberals so set against Canada upgrading her defence forces? The NDP we understand, given they have always been anti-military. Do the Liberals want this country to fall behind in defence? Do they honestly think Canada is safe from any attack? They opposed a naval upgrade. They opposed new helicopters. They sent troops to Afghanistan, then blame the Harper administration for the troops being there. Why do the Liberals hate the military? Canada has a proud military history. The Canadians were the most feared troops on the Western Front in WW I. The Germans dreaded meeting the Canadians after D-Day in WW II (they ran away from Dieppe as the Canadians closed in in 1944). Why do the Liberals want to destroy something of pride to Canada? Ahahahaha wow. The Liberals don't want to destroy anything, they just want to see the contract put out to tender. The Conservatives basically said this is the plane we want quite arbitrarily. Normally, there's a tender is put out, companies submit bids and a plane is purchased. The fact that there is a competition usually lowers the price. It also usually guarantees more contracts are handed out to Canadian firms. The price was exorbitant for the F-35s and there was absolutely no provision for any of the maintenance to be handled by Canadian firms, something that's ALWAYS included in terms of the procurement of expensive and highly technical equipment. The Liberals don't want to scrap purchasing a plane. Besides, the contract isn't to be signed for another two years anyway. So, by all accounts, we have the time to put the contract out to tender to fish for a better price and actually have a comptetition to see which plane best fits our need. Conservatives are for competition, right? They were the last time I checked. Then again, this thread isn't to get answers as to why the Liberals don't support the F-35. If we're going to be completely honest, it's to smear the LPC as Canadian Military haters and ultimately Canada haters. If this was to be a true debate on policy you wouldn't have included the last line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWiz Posted February 22, 2011 Report Share Posted February 22, 2011 Here you go - http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=17363&view=findpost&p=593400 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted February 22, 2011 Report Share Posted February 22, 2011 Why are the Liberals so set against Canada upgrading her defence forces? The NDP we understand, given they have always been anti-military. Do the Liberals want this country to fall behind in defence? Do they honestly think Canada is safe from any attack? They opposed a naval upgrade. They opposed new helicopters. They sent troops to Afghanistan, then blame the Harper administration for the troops being there. Why do the Liberals hate the military? Canada has a proud military history. The Canadians were the most feared troops on the Western Front in WW I. The Germans dreaded meeting the Canadians after D-Day in WW II (they ran away from Dieppe as the Canadians closed in in 1944). Why do the Liberals want to destroy something of pride to Canada? What do you want... Tax relief (see tax cuts)??? or A well funded military??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWiz Posted February 22, 2011 Report Share Posted February 22, 2011 Ahahahaha wow. The Liberals don't want to destroy anything, they just want to see the contract put out to tender. The Conservatives basically said this is the plane we want quite arbitrarily. Normally, there's a tender is put out, companies submit bids and a plane is purchased. The fact that there is a competition usually lowers the price. It also usually guarantees more contracts are handed out to Canadian firms. The price was exorbitant for the F-35s and there was absolutely no provision for any of the maintenance to be handled by Canadian firms, something that's ALWAYS included in terms of the procurement of expensive and highly technical equipment. The Liberals don't want to scrap purchasing a plane. Besides, the contract isn't to be signed for another two years anyway. So, by all accounts, we have the time to put the contract out to tender to fish for a better price and actually have a comptetition to see which plane best fits our need. Conservatives are for competition, right? They were the last time I checked. Then again, this thread isn't to get answers as to why the Liberals don't support the F-35. If we're going to be completely honest, it's to smear the LPC as Canadian Military haters and ultimately Canada haters. If this was to be a true debate on policy you wouldn't have included the last line. Have a look and catch up my friend... http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=17363&view=findpost&p=593400 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shakeyhands Posted February 22, 2011 Report Share Posted February 22, 2011 and lets not forget this little tidbit.... Arm twisting and threats I wonder what capabilities that the F35 alone has that no other model has anyway, perhaps someone could point them out for me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scouterjim Posted February 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2011 What do you want... Tax relief (see tax cuts)??? or A well funded military??? A well funded military, thank you. I have no problem paying taxes for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scouterjim Posted February 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2011 Ahahahaha wow. The Liberals don't want to destroy anything, they just want to see the contract put out to tender. The Conservatives basically said this is the plane we want quite arbitrarily. Normally, there's a tender is put out, companies submit bids and a plane is purchased. The fact that there is a competition usually lowers the price. It also usually guarantees more contracts are handed out to Canadian firms. The price was exorbitant for the F-35s and there was absolutely no provision for any of the maintenance to be handled by Canadian firms, something that's ALWAYS included in terms of the procurement of expensive and highly technical equipment. The Liberals don't want to scrap purchasing a plane. Besides, the contract isn't to be signed for another two years anyway. So, by all accounts, we have the time to put the contract out to tender to fish for a better price and actually have a comptetition to see which plane best fits our need. Conservatives are for competition, right? They were the last time I checked. Then again, this thread isn't to get answers as to why the Liberals don't support the F-35. If we're going to be completely honest, it's to smear the LPC as Canadian Military haters and ultimately Canada haters. If this was to be a true debate on policy you wouldn't have included the last line. Wrong. I just wonder why they are so anti-military, and have been so since the days of the late unlamented Pierre Eliott Asshole Trudeau. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted February 22, 2011 Report Share Posted February 22, 2011 A well funded military, thank you. I have no problem paying taxes for that. Fair enough.. Most chose the Chretien/Martin tax cuts,however... The Con's have chosen tax cuts and increased spending (including the military)...And a huge deficit... But they're "Standing Up For Canada!!!"...So says the stickers I see on bumpers... The lesson?? Ya' can't have it both ways.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted February 22, 2011 Report Share Posted February 22, 2011 Wrong. I just wonder why they are so anti-military, and have been so since the days of the late unlamented Pierre Eliott Asshole Trudeau. Just Society or a military... Take your pick... And you should be happy with Trudeau's authoritarian side... He made sure this country woud'nt end up like Northern Ireland in 1970 by getting tough with traitor revolutionaries... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scouterjim Posted February 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2011 Just Society or a military... Take your pick... And you should be happy with Trudeau's authoritarian side... He made sure this country woud'nt end up like Northern Ireland in 1970 by getting tough with traitor revolutionaries... The whole "October Crisis" was overblown. The FLQ weren't nearly as big a threat as Trudeau tried to make them out to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a.gee Posted February 22, 2011 Report Share Posted February 22, 2011 The country is in need of new machinery, but the Liberals are just opposed to the lack of supplier competition. Unfortunately, they make it seem like they're against it all together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Canada Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 (edited) The Liberals can cry all they want, they won't be winning an election any time soon. Who cares what they say? The Tories will be in Power at least for another 5 years. Plus we've already spent hundreds of millions of dollars in development of this plane. Plus it's the same plane our closest Nato partners will have etc etc. We're still waiting for the helicopters from the deal that Chretien canceled. So the Liberals don't really have much integrity in that dept. They screwed up the helicopter deal royally and it cost Canadian pilots their lives. Where are these new choppers...? We're still waiting for them and that was over 15 years ago. Edited February 23, 2011 by Mr.Canada Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capricorn Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 The whole "October Crisis" was overblown. The FLQ weren't nearly as big a threat as Trudeau tried to make them out to be. To say the least, it was ill advised for the Liberals under PM Martin to produce the "soldiers in our streets" anti-Conservative ad, considering the Liberals invoked the war measures act in October 1970, complete with tanks rolling down the streets of Montreal. We know how well that attack ad was received by Canadians - not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saipan Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 Why are the Liberals so set against Canada upgrading her defence forces? They enjoy great war loses of lives so they can point fingers.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWiz Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 Plus it's the same plane our closest Nato partners will have etc etc. Nope, quess again... THEY are a lot smarter than us... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MapleLeafAlliance Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 Defense spending and military spending are not the same thing. Defense spending is for when we need to defend our sovereignty. Military spending is when we interfere in the internal affairs of other nations. We will need to purchase newer, more updated aircraft to better defend our sovereignty from future threats - whether or not this means we should be buying those F-35 jets at this moment is up for debate. Maybe we should worry about getting our finances in the black first...then worry about buying expensive defense equipment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saipan Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 Defense spending and military spending are not the same thing. Defense spending is for when we need to defend our sovereignty. Military spending is when we interfere in the internal affairs of other nations. For defence we use FMJ bullets and for interfering in the internal affairs we use JMF? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWiz Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 (edited) Why are the Liberals so set against Canada upgrading her defence forces? The NDP we understand, given they have always been anti-military. Do the Liberals want this country to fall behind in defence? Do they honestly think Canada is safe from any attack? They opposed a naval upgrade. They opposed new helicopters. They sent troops to Afghanistan, then blame the Harper administration for the troops being there. Why do the Liberals hate the military? Canada has a proud military history. The Canadians were the most feared troops on the Western Front in WW I. The Germans dreaded meeting the Canadians after D-Day in WW II (they ran away from Dieppe as the Canadians closed in in 1944). Why do the Liberals want to destroy something of pride to Canada? - Last week, Alan Williams, the former Assistant Deputy Minister of defence responsible for procurement, testified before Parliament that it was a mistake to go to a sole-source competition and that an open competition would get the best fighter at the lowest price with the most jobs. In a vitriolic response, Stephen Harper said that Mr. Williams had changed his opinion since he was in government a charge that Mr. Williams called an absolute lie. This is the single largest military procurement in Canadian history, said Liberal Defence Critic Dominic LeBlanc. We are deeply concerned that the government hasnt been straight with Canadians, and that without competition, were not getting the right plane, the best price, or the greatest benefits for our aerospace industry. Mr. Garneau and Mr. LeBlanc set out the following questions on the F-35 deal: 1. What are the defence priorities and the domestic and foreign mission requirements that our new fighter jets must be able to support? 2. What are the roles, capabilities and operational performance requirements that any new fighter must be able to meet in order to support these future domestic and international priorities and missions? 3. What evidence does the government have to demonstrate that their deal gets the right equipment for our Air Force while achieving the following: a. The lowest cost and best value for taxpayer dollars, with controls to prevent cost escalation; and b. Guaranteed regional benefits with a transfer of intellectual property to grow the Canadian aerospace industry, including in-service support? Without compelling answers to each of these questions, we dont understand why the government is sole-sourcing a plane chosen by the Pentagon, said Mr. LeBlanc. It seems like all of our NATO allies are questioning the skyrocketing costs of the F-35, so why is the Canadian government alone in writing a blank cheque to Lockheed Martin with no questions asked? There is no penalty for cancelling the current deal and holding an open competition for our next fighter jet. A Liberal government would remain committed to the 2006 Memorandum of Understanding that gives Canadian industry access to F-35 contracts, without any obligation to purchase the planes. If the Conservatives dont provide us with satisfactory answers, we will cancel this deal and hold an open competition upon forming government, concluded Mr. Garneau. An open competition which could still result in the selection of the F-35 would provide better value to taxpayers, guarantee industrial regional benefits for manufacturing and maintenance, and result in knowledge transfer to help build our aerospace industry. - http://www.dominicleblanc.ca/ Much more - http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=17363&view=findpost&p=593400 Edited February 23, 2011 by GWiz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shwa Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 Why are the Liberals so set against Canada upgrading her defence forces? The NDP we understand, given they have always been anti-military. Do the Liberals want this country to fall behind in defence? Do they honestly think Canada is safe from any attack? They opposed a naval upgrade. They opposed new helicopters. They sent troops to Afghanistan, then blame the Harper administration for the troops being there. Why do the Liberals hate the military? Canada has a proud military history. The Canadians were the most feared troops on the Western Front in WW I. The Germans dreaded meeting the Canadians after D-Day in WW II (they ran away from Dieppe as the Canadians closed in in 1944). Why do the Liberals want to destroy something of pride to Canada? Of course you are wholly referring to the Avro Arrow yes? You know, the advanced Canadian fighter jet that was going to be manufactured right here in Canada? Is that what you mean when you ask why do the Liberals want to destroy something of pride to Canada? It was not until June 1957, however, when the governing Liberals lost the federal election and a Progressive Conservative government under John Diefenbaker took power, that the aircraft's fate began to noticeably change. Oops, it wasn't the Liberals. Remember the Arrow! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWiz Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 Of course you are wholly referring to the Avro Arrow yes? You know, the advanced Canadian fighter jet that was going to be manufactured right here in Canada? Is that what you mean when you ask why do the Liberals want to destroy something of pride to Canada? Oops, it wasn't the Liberals. Remember the Arrow! We all do! At least those of us who swore never again to vote for the party in power that destroyed Canada's last chance to be a "player" in international military aviation sales, that being John (Dief the Chief) Diefenbaker and the CONSERVATIVES... Lest we forget... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 We all do! At least those of us who swore never again to vote for the party in power that destroyed Canada's last chance to be a "player" in international military aviation sales, that being John (Dief the Chief) Diefenbaker and the CONSERVATIVES... Lest we forget... Gee...and I always thought you just blamed the Americans...again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Canada Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 Nope, quess again... THEY are a lot smarter than us... Bottom line is that the Tories don't need to care about what the Liberals or NDP say. Neither of them can beat the Tories in an election and basically just whine and pout, nothing else. probably explains why the Tories are basically just ignoring them, they don't matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWiz Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 Gee...and I always thought you just blamed the Americans...again. Naaa, electing a PM that sells out Canada to US interests is a Canadian problem... One that seems to still exist today... Perhaps even more so than it did back then... Diefenbaker, Moroney and now Harper, all 3 cut from the same cloth, and all three sold (or in Harpers case are selling) Canada down the river to the U.S. of A.... The truest, and nastiest, thing YOU can say about certain Canadians is that they're SLOW learners, with weak minds, and short memories... WOW! I just realized, that I just described REpublicans as well... Two birds with one stone, I'm getting GOOD at this... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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