These are Secular Popular Revolts....

[bloodyminded]

It's funny that only a few months later, the premise of a secular popular revolt has been completely proven false. Muslim Brotherhood for the win!

Even if there's a bad outcome, you can hardly retroactively declare a movement other than what it was.

[Shady]

Even if there's a bad outcome, you can hardly retroactively declare a movement other than what it was.

Just like you can't prematurely declare a movement something that you hope, instead of what it actually is.

[bloodyminded]

Just like you can't prematurely declare a movement something that you hope, instead of what it actually is.

The Muslim Brotherhood wasn't even part of the uprising; it appears they were as surprised as was everyone else.

[GostHacked]

And by "backed", you mean the "corrupt governments in the West" committed the incredible crime of doing business for essentials - such as securing oil for our own countries. It's sad how it never gets old to see simplistic statements from simple persons (like you, GostHacked) taking little cheap shots at "the West" and suggesting that somehow we're all responsible for the circumstances in the Arab and Muslim countries.

You think our countries are completely innocent in these matters? It's not simplistic, it is reality.

As if there's ever been this simple choice between freedom and tyranny, and the West chose tyranny.

The west will support a tyrannical leader when it benefits them. One really obvious example is Iraq and Saddam Hussein and supporting them in a war against Iran. We also support one of the most tyrannical rules on the planet, which is Saudi Arabia.

Try again Bob.

As if the West can just make up its mind as to what kind of governments it want to see in the Middle East and manifest its desires at the snap of its fingers.

Are you that naive?

Of course, the West should stand on principle and stop buying oil from dictatorships in the Middle East/Northern Africa and starve its economy so that everyone ends up in poverty.

So if we don't buy oil from dictatorships we let people starve? WTF kind of mentality is this? Is buying oil from these dictatorships more of a selfish issue because we want to have a certain level of moderninity and comfort?

That is kind of like buying drugs from the criminal just so his family can eat. Try again Bob.

At least then, the West could insulate itself from infantile criticisms from persons like you.

Infantile is supporting genocide of another people just so Israel can be secure, but we already have many threads on that topic.

Ridiculous, but not unexpected from the likes of GostHacked.

You've got quite the track record as well.

[Shady]

The Muslim Brotherhood wasn't even part of the uprising; it appears they were as surprised as was everyone else.

Nope, they were part of the uprising. They just stayed under the radar. To fool useful idiots in the West.

[bloodyminded]

Nope, they were part of the uprising. They just stayed under the radar. To fool useful idiots in the West.

And you of course have some evidence for this.

[Shady]

And you of course have some evidence for this.

It was in the news. Long before you created this thread.

[bloodyminded]

It was in the news. Long before you created this thread.

I'm asking for evidence, not a bland assertion that evidence exists.

[GostHacked]

I'm asking for evidence, not a bland assertion that evidence exists.

I am going to assume you are not expecting any evidence from Shady anyways. Remember this when he says someone else is pulling things out of their ass.

[bloodyminded]

I am going to assume you are not expecting any evidence from Shady anyways. Remember this when he says someone else is pulling things out of their ass.

I'll try to remember, but this has become so common that it all blends into one.

[GostHacked]

I'll try to remember, but this has become so common that it all blends into one.

Sadly, I agree.

[Bob]

And you of course have some evidence for this.

Come on bloodyminded, seriously? You know there is a deeply-rooted and well-established Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. They were certainly involved in the demonstrations/events. To what degree? Who knows. I read the same terrible media you do and don't trust them to give me the full story. To what degree this movement is really secular is very up in the air. I hope it is, but chances are it isn't given the nature of Egyptian people. These aren't secular people, so they're not going to have a secular revolt. Yes, they're more secular than places like Saudi Arabia, but they're certainly not secular in the Western context.

[bloodyminded]

Come on bloodyminded, seriously? You know there is a deeply-rooted and well-established Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. They were certainly involved in the demonstrations/events. To what degree? Who knows. I read the same terrible media you do and don't trust them to give me the full story.

Of course not. But that certainly doesn't mean that something not reported must be true.

And the claim I was countering was precisely that the media were reporting on the MB's being behind the uprising. A pure and uttelry politicized invention, in other words.

I performed the radical leftist tactic of asking for evidence of an explciit claim made through a declarative sentence.

To what degree this movement is really secular is very up in the air. I hope it is, but chances are it isn't given the nature of Egyptian people. These aren't secular people, so they're not going to have a secular revolt. Yes, they're more secular than places like Saudi Arabia, but they're certainly not secular in the Western context.

No, certainly not, and I personally wish they were. But the revolts, like all major uprisings, revolts, revolutions, etc--without a single exception anywhere--ae going to involve a myriad of distinct individuals and groups fighting for different reasons, with differing ends in mind.

Surely you don't perceive the Libyan situation in precisely the way politicians and commentators--incluidng, almost universally, conservatives--have been spouting on the subject? That it's plain and simple a matter of high-minded emocratic forces being crushed by the tyrant?

I'm not saying these matters are not complicated and complex.

It is those saying "the Muslim Brotherhood were behind this" who are declaring that it's not complicated. Your argument is with them.

Edited May 25, 2011 by bloodyminded