bloodyminded Posted February 20, 2011 Report Posted February 20, 2011 (edited) While this article feels a little scattered for my tastes, there's some really excellent observations here. First of all the tepid (and belated) "support" for the democratic uprisings by Western governments is too little, too late. The people, most of whom are genuinely and sincerely interested in a truly moral victory (in the best sense of the word) would rather not have Obama and co. offering empty words of support: Having originally supported the "stable" dictatorships of the Middle East – when they should have stood by the forces of democracy – they decided to support civilian calls for democracy in the Arab world at a time when the Arabs were so utterly disenchanted with the West's hypocrisy that they didn't want America on their side. "The Americans interfered in our country for 30 years under Mubarak, supporting his regime, arming his soldiers," an Egyptian student told me in Tahrir Square last week. "Now we would be grateful if they stopped interfering on our side." At the end of the week, I heard identical voices in Bahrain. "We are getting shot by American weapons fired by American-trained Bahraini soldiers with American-made tanks," a medical orderly told me on Friday. "And now Obama wants to be on our side?" Fisk also points out the amusing impotence of the Islamist movements: Iranian leaders trying to celebrate a democratic uprising--as "Islamist," which it is not--while simultaneously threatening its own people not to rise up. In fact, the reactionaries and extremists throughout the region, from Iran to Yemen, were left behind, as dumbfounded and wondering how to proceed as were their counterparts in error and folly: the leaders of the Western democracies. The Islamists and the Western leaders united in confusion, stumbling about, making inane remarks about the uprising...hilarious! God and Mammon, united at last! http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-these-are-secular-popular-revolts-ndash-yet-everyone-is-blaming-religion-2220134.html Edited February 20, 2011 by bloodyminded Quote As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. --Josh Billings
Shady Posted February 21, 2011 Report Posted February 21, 2011 Can a group of highly religious people have a secular revolt? Quote
wyly Posted February 21, 2011 Report Posted February 21, 2011 (edited) and now libyan regime is on the verge of going down I can't say I thought that would happen... Edited February 21, 2011 by wyly Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
DogOnPorch Posted February 21, 2011 Report Posted February 21, 2011 It's just one more third world crap-hole exchanging one form of corrupt government for another... Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 21, 2011 Report Posted February 21, 2011 It's just one more third world crap-hole exchanging one form of corrupt government for another... President Reagan bombed him back in '86, and Bush scared him enough to come clean on nuclear weapons aspirations. This time should be the hat trick. Plus he just looks terrible! Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
GostHacked Posted February 21, 2011 Report Posted February 21, 2011 It's just one more third world crap-hole exchanging one form of corrupt government for another... All backed by corrupt governments in the west. Quote
bloodyminded Posted February 27, 2011 Author Report Posted February 27, 2011 Can a group of highly religious people have a secular revolt? Why not? Quote As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. --Josh Billings
DogOnPorch Posted February 27, 2011 Report Posted February 27, 2011 All backed by corrupt governments in the west. Oh yawn... Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Scotty Posted February 28, 2011 Report Posted February 28, 2011 The Islamists and the Western leaders united in confusion, stumbling about, making inane remarks about the uprising...hilarious! God and Mammon, united at last! It certainly looks like these are genuine populist uprisings. However, if I told you that I'd been to the future, and that in two years, Yemen, Libya, Tunisia and Egypt are all being run by brutal Islamist dictatorships would you be shocked? Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Michael Hardner Posted February 28, 2011 Report Posted February 28, 2011 Why not? The Americans did ! Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
GostHacked Posted February 28, 2011 Report Posted February 28, 2011 It certainly looks like these are genuine populist uprisings. However, if I told you that I'd been to the future, and that in two years, Yemen, Libya, Tunisia and Egypt are all being run by brutal Islamist dictatorships would you be shocked? I would not be shocked at all. I am actually expecting it. Quote
Shady Posted February 28, 2011 Report Posted February 28, 2011 The Americans did ! Not quite. Freedom of religion isn't tantamount to being secular. Read the declaration of independence, the constitution or the currency of the state. "In God We Trust!" Quote
GostHacked Posted February 28, 2011 Report Posted February 28, 2011 Not quite. Freedom of religion isn't tantamount to being secular. Read the declaration of independence, the constitution or the currency of the state. "In God We Trust!" As long as it's the Christian God. Quote
Mr.Canada Posted February 28, 2011 Report Posted February 28, 2011 Yeah, that's why they are praying in the streets at prayer time, because they're secular. Spouting CBC talking points over and over doesn't make them true. Quote "You are scum for insinuating that isn't the case you snake." -William Ashley Canadian Immigration Reform Blog
Michael Hardner Posted February 28, 2011 Report Posted February 28, 2011 Not quite. Freedom of religion isn't tantamount to being secular. Read the declaration of independence, the constitution or the currency of the state. "In God We Trust!" In that case, I doubt that they can come up with a nation that is less religious than America was in the 18th century. We should agree on where the goalposts should be. If religion is as free in these reconfigured nations as it was in the 19th or 20th century then would you agree that progress has been made ? Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
Michael Hardner Posted February 28, 2011 Report Posted February 28, 2011 Yeah, that's why they are praying in the streets at prayer time, because they're secular. You're missing it - we've said on this thread that they're highly religious. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
Bryan Posted February 28, 2011 Report Posted February 28, 2011 It certainly looks like these are genuine populist uprisings. However, if I told you that I'd been to the future, and that in two years, Yemen, Libya, Tunisia and Egypt are all being run by brutal Islamist dictatorships would you be shocked? I would not be shocked at all. I am actually expecting it. It's either that, or more American puppet dictators. Actual secular democracy? Now that would shock me. Quote
Muddy Posted February 28, 2011 Report Posted February 28, 2011 I am sure the average guy putting his life on the line protesting and facing government forces is really believing that democracy will be the end result. But as in all revolts and revolutions a vacuum is created. To fill that hole will be the toughest guy with his own agenda. He may even feel he is benevolent in his own mind. He may even have some convoluted idea what democracy means. He selects his cabinet and they vote on what they perceive the leader wants and carry out his orders.I hope with all the sacrafices that these states win their revolution and a seculor liberal and benevolent government evolves. Do I have doubts? Yes. As for western armament being used against the people ,if one looks carefully, the rifles being used are usually AK 47`s. Quote
Wild Bill Posted February 28, 2011 Report Posted February 28, 2011 Can a group of highly religious people have a secular revolt? How do we know if the percentage of highly religious people is as high as it appears? We have this HUGE demographic of young folks, raised on Facebook and Twitter! They live in countries where if they don't APPEAR to be highly religious they will likely be buried up to their necks and stoned! I submit you have a difficult to prove premise, Shady. Revolutions seem to happen from the young, not the old. That's my generalization, anyway! Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
Mr.Canada Posted February 28, 2011 Report Posted February 28, 2011 You're missing it - we've said on this thread that they're highly religious. I've missed nothing. The majority of protesters in Egypt favor Sharia Law. Still think it's going to become a secular society? Quote "You are scum for insinuating that isn't the case you snake." -William Ashley Canadian Immigration Reform Blog
Michael Hardner Posted February 28, 2011 Report Posted February 28, 2011 I've missed nothing. The majority of protesters in Egypt favor Sharia Law. Still think it's going to become a secular society? Can I have source for that ? I don't have an opinion, but as I said America managed okay. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
kimmy Posted February 28, 2011 Report Posted February 28, 2011 I've been a little skeptical about the spin that's been put on these protests. Were they really crying out for freedom, or were they crying out against Mubarek? Was it really a desire for freedom, or do they really just want a government that's not pals with the US? What does they freedom they're supposedly fighting for actually look like? What really got all those people out in the streets? I'm skeptical of the suspiciously rosy picture the media has painted for me. And then, of course the fact that the people who went out in the square don't speak for the whole country. The protesters may have caused the fall of the regime, but they won't have the only say in what replaces it. When the Lara Logan incident left people asking "wait, are these the happy, hopeful freedom-loving protesters we were told about?" we were assured that no, these were different people in the streets... the freedom-loving protesters had been replaced by a different crowd. Well, that different crowd is still out there, and they'll have their say in what happens as well. Like Mr C, I have a hunch that in a few years we'll look at the Middle East and think "this doesn't look much like the warm-and-fuzzy freedom-loving Middle East they told us was going to happen." -k Quote (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ Friendly forum facilitator! ┬──┬◡ﾉ(° -°ﾉ)
Mr.Canada Posted February 28, 2011 Report Posted February 28, 2011 Yes kimmy. Unless something has already happened people here don't believe it. I like to be proactive while posters here would prefer we be reactive. Quote "You are scum for insinuating that isn't the case you snake." -William Ashley Canadian Immigration Reform Blog
Scotty Posted March 1, 2011 Report Posted March 1, 2011 It's either that, or more American puppet dictators. Actual secular democracy? Now that would shock me. Wouldn't American puppet dictators be better - from our perspective? Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
DogOnPorch Posted March 1, 2011 Report Posted March 1, 2011 Gaddafi is an American puppet? Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
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