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The crisis in Egypt


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Well, it seems like the Egyptian army is standing with the people, from what I can tell. This is a good sign. The army is also separating the pro-Mubarak protesters from the anti-Mubarak supporters.

It's still going to get a bit worse before it gets better. Keep the hopes up.

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I saw a protest today here in Waterloo, it was suprising to see Egyptian flags and protest going on by students who must be from influential families going on right infront of my eyes in Canada.

There was a sizable protest too, like the size you see for a moderate size protest from Canadians about Canadian issues......

It is protest in effigy - I'm very nuetral on this issue, but I'm suprised anti government protests are going on here in Canada - by what must be the priveleged people of Egypt.

---

Or maybe this protest was by Canadians.... due to being against the government of Egypt.

Regardless why protest in the middle of a University if you can protest at city hall or infront of government of canada buildings?

A large group of egyptians linked to militant protests in egypt actually made me exercise caution and had me question my own safety. (being circumsized and growing my hair like an orthodox jew.)

It doesn't belong on campus - target politicians not students.

I think it is totally fine and a right to protest, but it is still distressing... I don't need stress.

I can respect both sides of this situation.

Common now, there's support protests happening everywhere around the world, Canada and Canadians should be different?

Get real!

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Wip allow me to respond to just some of your comments I have placed in quotes:

"Maybe rightwingers just aren't capable of seeing issues from other perspectives than their own interests..."

That could be the case but it would equally hold true of you as well then, unless you are saying only your opinions are acceptable. The point is you made a generalization simply based on the fact that you disagree with what you stereotype as "rightwingers". Not all "rightwingers" are closed minded. For you to suggest such a thing simply evidences you want to name call and reduce a vast range of opinions into a simplistic label to make it easy for you to dismiss without having to debate.

You stated this:

"you believe the average Egyptian should give a crap about Israel's security!"

It appears the above is supposed to be a rhetorical question but in fact you rephrased it to project through exclamation your own view. How about instead of projecting onto others your opinion, you take ownership of your opinion and simply state you believe the average Egyptian doesn't need to care about Israeli security.

Now in response to that specific opinion of yours, I don't doubt right now the real reason Egyptians are on the street are food prices. However of course Egyptians might want to care about Israel although I do not presume to lecture any Egyptian. If there is a war with Hamas and Israel of course it will cause futher instability across the Middle East and fan the Islamist extremists in Egypt which from what appears to be the case represents about 30% of its population but not more.

Egyptians have traditionally hated Israel and probably always will manifest anti-semitism which pertains to all Jews and not just Israelis since it is deeply entrenched in its culture, i.e., expressed in its media, universities, school curriculums and popular views, but that said, Egyptians are also first and foremost pragmatists and invited Israeli dollars from tourism and the average Egyptian was not wanting the Muslim Brotherhood and a shiite theocracy which they fear would spread with Hezbollah, Hamas and anti Israeli extremists.

So to answer your question, no Egyptians are probably not as simplistic as you, at one level they probably still entertain ancient anti-semitic beliefs about Judaism, a gut hatred for Israel and a manifest distrust of Israel and sympathy for Palestinians but on another level are capable of understanding why a stable Middle East without Israel at war is of benefit to them as well.

You made this sweeping statement:

"If the close relationship the Mubarak Regime has with Israel causes blowback, and a similar situation as Iran in 1979, that's the price you pay when you try to manipulate entire nations as pawns on a chessboard."

Egypt never had a close relationship with Israel. There never has been any warmth or closness or genuine mutual admiration or affection. Egypt never exchanged an ambassador. It shows how little you know of the actual relationship. The relationship came out of pragmatism not closeness or affection-it came because Egypt received billions in aid from the US for being Israel's ally and portraying itself as an ally of the US. Egypt's relationship with Israel was based on pure self interest and a mutual concern over Islamic fundamentalist extremism, Syria, Iran, Hezbollah and Hamas.

You stated:

"I've never paid a great deal of attention to what Israel is, and is not doing,"

Yes that is clearly evident in your comments and none-the-less it doesn't seem to stop you from making all kinds of generalizations and assumptions about Israel now does it?

You made this statement:

".. but I am sick of the Harper Government's changing of Canada's historic position of working for peace, to one that offers unqualified support for whatever Israeli governments want to do."

Well we are even then because I am sick of people like you mistating Harper's position and reducing it to something he has never stated he supports. Harper has never given unqualified support for what ever Israeli governments want to do. That again is you projecting your subjective opinion and another simplistic black and white one on the actual foreign policy of the Conservative government in the Middle East which is no different then the Liberal one at this point.

If you bother to actually read it, what Harper has done is to say unequivocally he defends Israel's right to protect itself against terrorism, no more, no less. When it comes to the West Bank he has stated he is in favour of a two state solution, supports a settlement freeze, and does not encourage continued settlement by Israel on the West Bank.

In that respect his policy is no different than Ignatieff's. Do provide the documentation for your representation. I would love to read the policy statement where Harper said he would support anything Israel did at any time. Can't wait.

Oh by the way before you label me a right winger, I am well known on this board for not being a Conservative or a left winger. Its possible to be neither. Its also possible to disagree with Harper but not agree with people like you who deliberately misrepresent his positions to bolster your rhetoric.

You made this comment:

"If they want to plant their flag and takeover most of the West Bank, why the hell is our Government supporting them?"

Put up or shut up. Provide the evidence Harper stated he supports continued settlement on the West Bank.

You then after admitting you do not follow what Israel does provided this expert analysis of Israel:

"As Israel has progressed from its beginnings as a secular Jewish state, to one dominated by Orthodox Jews.."

You are of course completely incorrect and your statement shows your inability to understand the difference between the Rabbinical Court dominated by Orthodox Jews and the Israeli government and typical Israeli who if you need to use a simplistic label is more aptly described as reluctant existentialist. In fact actual orthodox Jews are not the majority of Israelis. The average Israeli is not religious at all. The fact the Rabbinical Courts have dominated what the definition of a Jew is during debate on it or now controls the marriage and citizenship laws of Israel, does not mean Orthodox Jews dominate Israel or the government. There is a big difference your simplistic generalizations can not clearly grasp.

In fact the average Israeli is sick and tired of orthodox Judaism principles imposed on them and mostly ignore them. The religious Orthodox Jewish political parties are fringe groups and even their clout in Netanyahu's coalition of right wing groups is precarious.

The fundamentalist Jewish settlers on the West Bank constitute one third of the Jews on the West Bank. They most certainly effect Israeli policies on the West Bank and within their group are cells of intolerant extremists. However another 1/3rd of the Jewish population are in fact ultra-orthodox Hasids who do not recognize the state of Israel something you appear to have overlooked. The other 1/3rd are typical Israelis, non religious and reluctant existentialists just trying to survive.

You also made this statement:

"It's time for the West to start to realize that the real demographic bomb for Israel is not Palestinian Arabs, but importing Orthodox Jews from around the world, which are breeding like rabbits, and calling every settlement they build 'holy land' that must stay Jewish forever. "

Again for someone who does not much care for Israel or what goes on there you have no problems lecturing us all on Israel and making sweeping stereotypes and ridiculous ones at that about Orthodox Jews breeding like rabbits. That without a doubt summarizes the extent of your credibility-the need to make sweeping insulting generalizations as to Orthodox Jews and their sexual habits reducing them to rodents. How insightful. You might perhaps want to look at the actual population rates of Palestinians and Jews to see who is as you state "breeding lile rabbits". Your statement is nonsensical because in fact Palestinians have a birth-rate far higher than Israelis.

Your idiotic statement also shows you engage in an erroneous stereotype. Hasidic or ultra-orthodox Jews believe in large families yes, but over 60% of them are not even Zionist!

In fact the vast majority of Israelis are not reproducing in large amounts because of high taxes and the constant stress. You though being a sexologist and demographer and expert on Jewish breeding habits must have forgot that.

You stated:

"Israel will eventually turn into a Jewish theocracy.."

Another insightful comment. It has been since 1948. Not that you seem to have noticed. This from someone who claims to be an expert on Jewish sex habits.

Oh but wait, just to let you know I actually agreed with one thing you stated:

" There has always been an inherent contradiction between having a Jewish state and a democratic state. This contradiction was submerged for the first few decades because the Arab population was small enough to allow them full participation without worrying about losing that Jewish character. But, as the Arab population has grown, the restrictions have increased on the non-Jewish population."

That is an excellent analysis actually and something openly discussed everyday in Israel. Also interestingly it directly contradicts your sex theories on the reproduction of Jews because if they were breeding like rabbits the above wouldn't be an issue no would it? Um uh um uh.

Oh but wait here is another lecture to me and Jews about knowing our place in the world. Tell me that need to tell me my place you know where that comes from. Do you have any idea where you get that habit to lecture Jews as to our proper place? Ooopsy. Another trendy leftist liberal who spits out elitist, arrogant patronizing, holier then thou lectures to the pushy Jew on their rightful place. Where is it? Oh wait you say it is....

"If Israel wants to build a state for every Jew in the world to go to, and correspondingly push out everyone who is not Jewish, then they should have to stand or fall by that choice."

Thanks for the lecture about the price we Jews must pay for wanting to be free and not subject to you and your lectures. Thanks. Oh by the way Bwana Massuh, who are you lecturing about the price Jews have paid for their freedom? Israelis? You think with your soft sheltered buttox which takes freedom and majority status and the power that comes with it for granted so much so you need to patronize Jews, that you can lecture any Israeli or Jew on the price we have paid for our freedom? You think Israelis do not know the price they have paid since Israel's inception and before it was created for our freedom? Really now.

Got news for you Bwana Massuh take that arrogant presumptious patronizing tone which presumes to lecture Jews on the price they have paid for freedom and shove it up your

onboxious stuck up derrieres. Oh was that too pushy? Does this Jew not know his place? What's that massuh az need to suffer some moh you sez?

Are you even aware you have raised an ancient anti-semitic canard with that question that flows from the concept that Jews deserve to suffer? You even know where it comes from and why or do you just spew it out because its so deeply entrenched in your culture that you have no idea where it comes from?

Oh but wait let's trot out some more stereotypes shall we..here we go...the entire West should resist mind control of that dastardly Jew lobby....

"It's stupid for the West to be dragged into blanket support for Israel because of the powerful Jewish Lobby..."

Well its nice to know in the above stereotype of the Jew lobby (do note how you said JEWISH lobby not Israeli lobby-because after all what would we be if in a discussion criticizing Israel we forgot to stereotype all Jews, right?)..you then decided to stereotype a whole bunch of gentiles as well....

"and idiot Christian Zionists, who want to foment a big war because the dumbasses think it will fulfill end-time prophecy....."

You are just full of stereotype platitudes aren't you...tell me how would your sensibilities be if I trotted out such stereotypes of Egyptians or Muslims?

In regards to this comment,believe it or not I do not criticize it, I may not agree with all of it but I think its fair to throw it out as a political opinion...because if for no other reason some of us who do support Israels' right to exist are not stupid and no there are ulterior motives involved in all political decisions...

"I think Harper's playing of the Israel card has more to do with appealing to Christian fundamentalists than it does to sucking up to Ezra Levant & co."

I do believe Harper is a fundamentalist Christian which causes him to be a supporter of Israel. I think that is a fair thing to say and quite frankly I am not under the impression he has ever hid his traditional Christian views and therefore support of Israel for religious reasons. I think he has also made it clear though that foreign policy is not just based on that or his personal views.

Even if it is true, what is the difference between saying that or saying Carolyn Parrish deliberately enagged in anti Israeli and anti-semitic comments to get elected in Mississauga as an MP and then later as an Alderman before she was thrown out on her large buttox?

Are you suggesting Harper is inherently evil simply because he is a Christian or pro Israel in certain views? How is that different from the NDP having a bias against Israel because it sucks up to trade unions that have decided they feel they should tell the world Israel is evil?

You seem a tad selective.

See from where I sit, I don't embrace extremism from the left or right or generalizations made by you simply because you feel your leftism gives you inherent righteousness.

I hate everyone and criticize everyone equally. I don't select what I hate for politically opportune arguements. I believe in insulting everyone all the time.

Edited by Rue
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Protesters would need to stay their course, as the beliguered president is trying to stay his.. by all means. Eventually, one would give. I couldn't imagine it could be a crackdown at this time (the army seems to be firmly against it), so it'd only be a matter of time before the dictator becomes an embarrassment is encourage to leave without delay. Provided, and it's a big if, that the protesters, and opposition are able to maintain pressure. I.e. bring out the numbers, not necessarily every day, but regularly, and when needed. My hopes are with the people who weren't afraid to take a stand for their freedom.

One thing is already achieved, no matter what. The event has given us a chance to look at ourselves from the outside. So to say, has shown us a mirror of ourselves. And guess what, it's quite different from that pretty picture we so like to paint ourselves and on (quite multiple) occasion, preach to others (who'd still care to notice.. of whom, I dare think, there will be fewer and fewer with each and every revealed episode of democratically encouraged dictators, despots and such). No, it's still same old, same old, face firmly disfigured by a grimace of hatred and fear, and hands itchy to condone, excuse and on occasion, execute all and anything that Needs To Be Done For The Sake of Sacred National Interest. While, as in the well known movie, the Mouth keeps smiling and saying all the right words.

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Wip allow me to respond to just some of your comments I have placed in quotes:

"Maybe rightwingers just aren't capable of seeing issues from other perspectives than their own interests..."

That could be the case but it would equally hold true of you as well then, unless you are saying only your opinions are acceptable. The point is you made a generalization simply based on the fact that you disagree with what you stereotype as "rightwingers". Not all "rightwingers" are closed minded. For you to suggest such a thing simply evidences you want to name call and reduce a vast range of opinions into a simplistic label to make it easy for you to dismiss without having to debate.

You stated this:

"you believe the average Egyptian should give a crap about Israel's security!"

It appears the above is supposed to be a rhetorical question but in fact you rephrased it to project through exclamation your own view. How about instead of projecting onto others your opinion, you take ownership of your opinion and simply state you believe the average Egyptian doesn't need to care about Israeli security.

Now in response to that specific opinion of yours, I don't doubt right now the real reason Egyptians are on the street are food prices. However of course Egyptians might want to care about Israel although I do not presume to lecture any Egyptian. If there is a war with Hamas and Israel of course it will cause futher instability across the Middle East and fan the Islamist extremists in Egypt which from what appears to be the case represents about 30% of its population but not more.

Egyptians have traditionally hated Israel and probably always will manifest anti-semitism which pertains to all Jews and not just Israelis since it is deeply entrenched in its culture, i.e., expressed in its media, universities, school curriculums and popular views, but that said, Egyptians are also first and foremost pragmatists and invited Israeli dollars from tourism and the average Egyptian was not wanting the Muslim Brotherhood and a shiite theocracy which they fear would spread with Hezbollah, Hamas and anti Israeli extremists.

So to answer your question, no Egyptians are probably not as simplistic as you, at one level they probably still entertain ancient anti-semitic beliefs about Judaism, a gut hatred for Israel and a manifest distrust of Israel and sympathy for Palestinians but on another level are capable of understanding why a stable Middle East without Israel at war is of benefit to them as well.

You made this sweeping statement:

"If the close relationship the Mubarak Regime has with Israel causes blowback, and a similar situation as Iran in 1979, that's the price you pay when you try to manipulate entire nations as pawns on a chessboard."

Egypt never had a close relationship with Israel. There never has been any warmth or closness or genuine mutual admiration or affection. Egypt never exchanged an ambassador. It shows how little you know of the actual relationship. The relationship came out of pragmatism not closeness or affection-it came because Egypt received billions in aid from the US for being Israel's ally and portraying itself as an ally of the US. Egypt's relationship with Israel was based on pure self interest and a mutual concern over Islamic fundamentalist extremism, Syria, Iran, Hezbollah and Hamas.

You stated:

"I've never paid a great deal of attention to what Israel is, and is not doing,"

Yes that is clearly evident in your comments and none-the-less it doesn't seem to stop you from making all kinds of generalizations and assumptions about Israel now does it?

You made this statement:

".. but I am sick of the Harper Government's changing of Canada's historic position of working for peace, to one that offers unqualified support for whatever Israeli governments want to do."

Well we are even then because I am sick of people like you mistating Harper's position and reducing it to something he has never stated he supports. Harper has never given unqualified support for what ever Israeli governments want to do. That again is you projecting your subjective opinion and another simplistic black and white one on the actual foreign policy of the Conservative government in the Middle East which is no different then the Liberal one at this point.

If you bother to actually read it, what Harper has done is to say unequivocally he defends Israel's right to protect itself against terrorism, no more, no less. When it comes to the West Bank he has stated he is in favour of a two state solution, supports a settlement freeze, and does not encourage continued settlement by Israel on the West Bank.

In that respect his policy is no different than Ignatieff's. Do provide the documentation for your representation. I would love to read the policy statement where Harper said he would support anything Israel did at any time. Can't wait.

Oh by the way before you label me a right winger, I am well known on this board for not being a Conservative or a left winger. Its possible to be neither. Its also possible to disagree with Harper but not agree with people like you who deliberately misrepresent his positions to bolster your rhetoric.

You made this comment:

"If they want to plant their flag and takeover most of the West Bank, why the hell is our Government supporting them?"

Put up or shut up. Provide the evidence Harper stated he supports continued settlement on the West Bank.

You then after admitting you do not follow what Israel does provided this expert analysis of Israel:

"As Israel has progressed from its beginnings as a secular Jewish state, to one dominated by Orthodox Jews.."

You are of course completely incorrect and your statement shows your inability to understand the difference between the Rabbinical Court dominated by Orthodox Jews and the Israeli government and typical Israeli who if you need to use a simplistic label is more aptly described as reluctant existentialist. In fact actual orthodox Jews are not the majority of Israelis. The average Israeli is not religious at all. The fact the Rabbinical Courts have dominated what the definition of a Jew is during debate on it or now controls the marriage and citizenship laws of Israel, does not mean Orthodox Jews dominate Israel or the government. There is a big difference your simplistic generalizations can not clearly grasp.

In fact the average Israeli is sick and tired of orthodox Judaism principles imposed on them and mostly ignore them. The religious Orthodox Jewish political parties are fringe groups and even their clout in Netanyahu's coalition of right wing groups is precarious.

The fundamentalist Jewish settlers on the West Bank constitute one third of the Jews on the West Bank. They most certainly effect Israeli policies on the West Bank and within their group are cells of intolerant extremists. However another 1/3rd of the Jewish population are in fact ultra-orthodox Hasids who do not recognize the state of Israel something you appear to have overlooked. The other 1/3rd are typical Israelis, non religious and reluctant existentialists just trying to survive.

You also made this statement:

"It's time for the West to start to realize that the real demographic bomb for Israel is not Palestinian Arabs, but importing Orthodox Jews from around the world, which are breeding like rabbits, and calling every settlement they build 'holy land' that must stay Jewish forever. "

Again for someone who does not much care for Israel or what goes on there you have no problems lecturing us all on Israel and making sweeping stereotypes and ridiculous ones at that about Orthodox Jews breeding like rabbits. That without a doubt summarizes the extent of your credibility-the need to make sweeping insulting generalizations as to Orthodox Jews and their sexual habits reducing them to rodents. How insightful. You might perhaps want to look at the actual population rates of Palestinians and Jews to see who is as you state "breeding lile rabbits". Your statement is nonsensical because in fact Palestinians have a birth-rate far higher than Israelis.

Your idiotic statement also shows you engage in an erroneous stereotype. Hasidic or ultra-orthodox Jews believe in large families yes, but over 60% of them are not even Zionist!

In fact the vast majority of Israelis are not reproducing in large amounts because of high taxes and the constant stress. You though being a sexologist and demographer and expert on Jewish breeding habits must have forgot that.

You stated:

"Israel will eventually turn into a Jewish theocracy.."

Another insightful comment. It has been since 1948. Not that you seem to have noticed. This from someone who claims to be an expert on Jewish sex habits.

Oh but wait, just to let you know I actually agreed with one thing you stated:

" There has always been an inherent contradiction between having a Jewish state and a democratic state. This contradiction was submerged for the first few decades because the Arab population was small enough to allow them full participation without worrying about losing that Jewish character. But, as the Arab population has grown, the restrictions have increased on the non-Jewish population."

That is an excellent analysis actually and something openly discussed everyday in Israel. Also interestingly it directly contradicts your sex theories on the reproduction of Jews because if they were breeding like rabbits the above wouldn't be an issue no would it? Um uh um uh.

Oh but wait here is another lecture to me and Jews about knowing our place in the world. Tell me that need to tell me my place you know where that comes from. Do you have any idea where you get that habit to lecture Jews as to our proper place? Ooopsy. Another trendy leftist liberal who spits out elitist, arrogant patronizing, holier then thou lectures to the pushy Jew on their rightful place. Where is it? Oh wait you say it is....

"If Israel wants to build a state for every Jew in the world to go to, and correspondingly push out everyone who is not Jewish, then they should have to stand or fall by that choice."

Thanks for the lecture about the price we Jews must pay for wanting to be free and not subject to you and your lectures. Thanks. Oh by the way Bwana Massuh, who are you lecturing about the price Jews have paid for their freedom? Israelis? You think with your soft sheltered buttox which takes freedom and majority status and the power that comes with it for granted so much so you need to patronize Jews, that you can lecture any Israeli or Jew on the price we have paid for our freedom? You think Israelis do not know the price they have paid since Israel's inception and before it was created for our freedom? Really now.

Got news for you Bwana Massuh take that arrogant presumptious patronizing tone which presumes to lecture Jews on the price they have paid for freedom and shove it up your

onboxious stuck up derrieres. Oh was that too pushy? Does this Jew not know his place? What's that massuh az need to suffer some moh you sez?

Are you even aware you have raised an ancient anti-semitic canard with that question that flows from the concept that Jews deserve to suffer? You even know where it comes from and why or do you just spew it out because its so deeply entrenched in your culture that you have no idea where it comes from?

Oh but wait let's trot out some more stereotypes shall we..here we go...the entire West should resist mind control of that dastardly Jew lobby....

"It's stupid for the West to be dragged into blanket support for Israel because of the powerful Jewish Lobby..."

Well its nice to know in the above stereotype of the Jew lobby (do note how you said JEWISH lobby not Israeli lobby-because after all what would we be if in a discussion criticizing Israel we forgot to stereotype all Jews, right?)..you then decided to stereotype a whole bunch of gentiles as well....

"and idiot Christian Zionists, who want to foment a big war because the dumbasses think it will fulfill end-time prophecy....."

You are just full of stereotype platitudes aren't you...tell me how would your sensibilities be if I trotted out such stereotypes of Egyptians or Muslims?

In regards to this comment,believe it or not I do not criticize it, I may not agree with all of it but I think its fair to throw it out as a political opinion...because if for no other reason some of us who do support Israels' right to exist are not stupid and no there are ulterior motives involved in all political decisions...

"I think Harper's playing of the Israel card has more to do with appealing to Christian fundamentalists than it does to sucking up to Ezra Levant & co."

I do believe Harper is a fundamentalist Christian which causes him to be a supporter of Israel. I think that is a fair thing to say and quite frankly I am not under the impression he has ever hid his traditional Christian views and therefore support of Israel for religious reasons. I think he has also made it clear though that foreign policy is not just based on that or his personal views.

Even if it is true, what is the difference between saying that or saying Carolyn Parrish deliberately enagged in anti Israeli and anti-semitic comments to get elected in Mississauga as an MP and then later as an Alderman before she was thrown out on her large buttox?

Are you suggesting Harper is inherently evil simply because he is a Christian or pro Israel in certain views? How is that different from the NDP having a bias against Israel because it sucks up to trade unions that have decided they feel they should tell the world Israel is evil?

You seem a tad selective.

See from where I sit, I don't embrace extremism from the left or right or generalizations made by you simply because you feel your leftism gives you inherent righteousness.

I hate everyone and criticize everyone equally. I don't select what I hate for politically opportune arguements. I believe in insulting everyone all the time.

Man-oh-man I wish they had that applause emoticon here... VERY pleased to meet you indeed... I'm the/a "newbie" here and I certainly appreciate a well written post solely on it's merits, regardless of any political viewpoint, which I may or may not share... Well done... I applaud you...

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As for the Israel lobby, there is some heated debate on this matter among the Left generally. I'm inclined to agree with Noam Chomsky and some others who make the case that the influence has been vastly overstated.

A common idea--which comes as much from the Pat Buchanan Right as from the Left--is that Israel has undue influence on American policy...and that this is detrimental to America.

I don't see it that way.

At bottom, while I disagree that it is an inherently anti-semitic view, I believe it is premised on a fallacious notion of American righteousness: if only Israel weren't dragging America into wrong-headed support, America could continue its inherently good and benign international policies.

As usual, when the United States does something bad, it is someone else's fault; and the only American fault to discuss in polite society is that it blunders in its efforts to "do good," or, at worst, overreacts to a very plausible threat. So without the baleful influence of Israel, or of the dictators here or there, or the sinister UN, America could be back on its "natural" course of "doing good"...all predicated, incidentally, on the single matter of World War 2, which is why Hitler's name is reflexively summoned every time there's a new enemy. (Including the American Left.)

So when The United States and its Anglo allies materially and intentionally support massive state terrorism and mass murder in East Timor, it's because of the "Communist threat" (never spelled out in this case, but just a general catch-all justification); or because "Suharto fooled us" (never claimed even among the declassified reports, so a total fabrication).

The idea that the Western democracies (often conveniently symbolized by the Mob Boss) might behave badly, without a profound moral good as the premise, seems too much for many people to bear. It's unthinkable, and in fact has become doctrine for much of the intellectual, commentary class.

So it's always someone else's fault; if not enemies, then allies.

The truth is that Israel is an important geostrategic ally, and that's the reason for the close relationship. The supposed "cultural ties" are way overblown, in terms of their importance to policy. If anything approaching a bipartisan consenus appeared in which Israel was deemed a liability, the U.S. would drop it like a bomb with a lit fuse.

The Christian Zionists would be forced to alter their conveniently foreign-policy-aligned myths (and maybe also their anti-semitism, which is real enough, and innate to their beliefs); the neocons would adapt, since adapting is what they're good at, and would decry Israel's abandonment of "shared principles" or some such thing.

America's policy towards Israel is not about Israel; it's about the United States of America.

Edited by bloodyminded
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As for the Israel lobby, there is some heated debate on this matter among the Left generally. I'm inclined to agree with Noam Chomsky and some others who make the case that the influence has been vastly overstated.

A common idea--which comes as much from the Pat Buchanan Right as from the Left--is that Israel has undue influence on American policy...and that this is detrimental to America.

I don't see it that way.

At bottom, while I disagree that it is an inherently anti-semitic view, I believe it is premised on a fallacious notion of American righteousness: if only Israel weren't dragging America into wrong-headed support, America could continue its inherently good and benign international policies.

As usual, when the United States does something bad, it is someone else's fault; and the only American fault to discuss in polite society is that it blunders in its efforts to "do good," or, at worst, overreacts to a very plausible threat. So without the baleful influence of Israel, or of the dictators here or there, or the sinister UN, America could be back on its "natural" course of "doing good"...all predicated, incidentally, on the single matter of World War 2, which is why Hitler's name is reflexively summoned every time there's a new enemy. (Including the American Left.)

So when The United States and its Anglo allies materially and intentionally support massive state terrorism and mass murder in East Timor, it's because of the "Communist threat" (never spelled out in this case, but just a general catch-all justification); or because "Suharto fooled us" (never claimed even among the declassified reports, so a total fabrication).

The idea that the Western democracies (often conveniently symbolized by the Mob Boss) might behave badly, without a profound moral good as the premise, seems too much for many people to bear. It's unthinkable, and in fact has become doctrine for much of the intellectual, commentary class.

So it's always someone else's fault; if not enemies, then allies.

The truth is that Israel is an important geostrategic ally, and that's the reason for the close relationship. The supposed "cultural ties" are way overblown, in terms of their importance to policy. If anything approaching a bipartisan consenus appeared in which Israel was deemed a liability, the U.S. would drop it like a bomb with a lit fuse.

The Christian Zionists would be forced to alter their conveniently foreign-policy-aligned myths (and maybe also their anti-semitism, which is real enough, and innate to their beliefs); the neocons would adapt, since adapting is what they're good at, and would decry Israel's abandonment of "shared principles" or some such thing.

America's policy towards Israel is not about Israel; it's about the United States of America.

Hmmm, painted with a somewhat broad brush stroke that didn't quite get into all the corners, but essentially a fairly accurate analysis...

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Hmmm, painted with a somewhat broad brush stroke that didn't quite get into all the corners, but essentially a fairly accurate analysis...

Well, I appreciate that. As for broad brush strokes...that seems pretty unavoidable in such a forum....

Is there anything specific that you think is missing?

Edited by bloodyminded
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OK...but that would include defense contractors like General Dynamics Canada (headquarters in Ottawa):

http://www.gdcanada.com/content/detail.cfm?acronym=locations

Sorry, but reality kinda sucks that way.

Sorry, nice try, but no cigar (Cuban or otherwise)...

GENERAL DYNAMICS

Please refer to the list below to reach one of our business units.

Corporate Headquarters

General Dynamics

2941 Fairview Park Drive, Suite 100

Falls Church, Virginia 22042-4513

Main Number: (703) 876-3000

Fax Number: (703) 876-3125

Please note that General Dynamics (Canada) is not mentioned on the list...

General Dynamics (Canada)

Core to Edge

As a division of the General Dynamics Corporation, our customers have access to an unparalleled breadth and depth of GD-family technology, and benefit from the corporate strength of more than 83,000 people worldwide.

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General Dynamics Canada, like so many other Canadian defense contractors, profits nicely from the arms business. You can try to squirm away from this Canadian fact, but resistance is futile.

1.

But, I did forget to thank you for your strong support of Canadian (even if they're only a minor Subsidiary of a U.S. Mega Corp.) industry... A significant change on your part that I welcomely acknowledge... B)

It's truly nice to know that what Canada does matters so much to you...

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But, I did forget to thank you for your strong support of Canadian (even if they're only a minor Subsidiary of a U.S. Mega Corp.) industry... A significant change on your part that I welcomely acknowledge... B)

2.

I have always supported Canadian "industry"...and uranium mining!

It's truly nice to know that what Canada does matters so much to you...

..and it is equally nice that you have learned where General Dynamics Canada headquarters is located.

Edited by bush_cheney2004
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Well, I appreciate that. As for broad brush strokes...that seems pretty unavoidable in such a forum....

Is there anything specific that you think is missing?

Nope, nothing "specific"...

My meaning was more that your comments didn't allow for the eb and flow of political tides in the USA and all other countries involved...

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No.

I've watched the video several times, they don't even say "we want to destroy Israel" (not sure where you got that, give me the time on the video if I missed it) what they say is:

"Israel is supporting Mubarak"

"Israel controls America"

"Israel is our enemy"

Meaning - that their opinion of Israel is directly related to Israel's support of Mubarak and his regime. And most likely the occupation doesn't help either.

Shouldn't they have expressed their hatred for Saudi Arabia, then, which also supports Mubarak? I'm sure that in the general scheme of things the Saudis helped to prop up Mubarak more than the Israelis did.

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Nope, nothing "specific"...

My meaning was more that your comments didn't allow for the eb and flow of political tides in the USA and all other countries involved...

Sure, I don't necessarily disagree; but I'm unclear of the distinction between my posts and...well, every other post here on any topic.

Unless we're to allow special leeway for the Western countries--their "ebb and flow" their nuances--while leaving official enemies (for example) as simplified caricatures.

At any rate, it's pretty incontestable that your criticism is more vague than is my post, criticized as (if I'm reading you right) oversimplification.

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2.

I have always supported Canadian "industry"...and uranium mining!

..and it is equally nice that you have learned where General Dynamics Canada headquarters is located.

Of course, the link was on my post, but it still wasn't on the list... GD (UK) was, GD (Sweden) was, GD (Switzerland) was, and more, but not GD (Canada), why not?

Could it be we are not the "big player" in Defence Contracting you're trying to make Canada out to be?

Sorry, nice try, but no cigar (Cuban or otherwise)...

GENERAL DYNAMICS

Please refer to the list below to reach one of our business units.

Corporate Headquarters

General Dynamics

2941 Fairview Park Drive, Suite 100

Falls Church, Virginia 22042-4513

Main Number: (703) 876-3000

Fax Number: (703) 876-3125

Please note that General Dynamics (Canada) is not mentioned on the list...

General Dynamics (Canada)

Core to Edge

As a division of the General Dynamics Corporation, our customers have access to an unparalleled breadth and depth of GD-family technology, and benefit from the corporate strength of more than 83,000 people worldwide.

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Globe and Mail\

According to the Globe and Mail, interviews with the people involved seem to indicate they are legitimately outraged by the demand Mubarak leave immediately.

Yes, but we don't normally allow equal weight to the supporters of a dictator (and every dictator has supporters) as we do the opponents of a dictator.

Of course they're outraged: they believe a dictator has the right to rule inherently--by dint of having taken power--so it's upsetting to them that he should not be accorded more respect.

Are you drawing some equivalence between the two factions? Whatever for?

Edited by bloodyminded
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Sure, I don't necessarily disagree; but I'm unclear of the distinction between my posts and...well, every other post here on any topic.

Unless we're to allow special leeway for the Western countries--their "ebb and flow" their nuances--while leaving official enemies (for example) as simplified caricatures.

At any rate, it's pretty incontestable that your criticism is more vague than is my post, criticized as (if I'm reading you right) oversimplification.

No criticism intended... Just my viewpoint...

My view is that Newton's 3 Laws of motion apply very well to the political and social interactions between and within countries... Nothing done stays static in physics or politics... You are of course free to feel differently on that subject or any other...

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That is simple speculation at this point.

pamphlets printed for the occasion...mubarak T shirts made for the occasion...co-ordinate meeting points and attacks... police and internal security in their midst...internal security services that haven't been seen in a week suddenly show up to confiscate media cameras and equipment...pro-mubarak demonstrators come armed to counter a unarmed protestors....really that's quite a lot of coincidences for a spontaneous demonstration...as well this has past history, armed gangs have been used before by the government to break up demonstrations, it allows the police and government to deny responsiblity... Edited by wyly
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