Young Jews Disrupt Netanyahu at Jewish General Assembly

[naomiglover]

Our Young, Jewish, and Proud leaders made headlines around the world when they disrupted Israel Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's speech at the country's largest gathering of Jewish leaders in New Orleans.

We have struck a nerve among Jews everywhere and among people who care about human rights.

[ToadBrother]

Our Young, Jewish, and Proud leaders made headlines around the world when they disrupted Israel Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's speech at the country's largest gathering of Jewish leaders in New Orleans.

We have struck a nerve among Jews everywhere and among people who care about human rights.

So tell me, where are the young Palestinians protesting Hamas?

[Bob]

I actually cringed in empathy, as I felt such embarrassment for that girl who humiliated herself by ranting the same sentence over and over over... like an autistic or drain-damaged child. I wonder if she and her other "Jewish leaders" protested Ahamedinejad's anti-Semitic cants at the UN. Netanyahu managed the crows well, and everyone took these absurdities in stride. It's sad and depressing that there are so many misguided youth with nothing better to do than to disrupt such event. Ironically, the last fool said something along the lines of "silencing dissent", which is exactly what these agitators were doing: attempting to silence the truth with their propaganda.

I support the loyalty loath, but it certainly doesn't go far enough and it must be applied to existing citizens as well as newcomers. Israel must remove anti-Zionist/anti-Semitic persons from the political process.

Lastly, to naomiglover, you don't even identify yourself as Jewish, so why are you doing this now? Since when did you begin to use words such as "our" in an attempt to identify yourself with the Jewish people? Is that a new strategy of yours where you try to exploit your "Jew-cred" to add weight to your anti-Semitic and anti-Zionist rants and raves? This board is too smart to be fooled by your first or last name, and having Jewish heritage doesn't insulate you from having your reprehensible views and double-standards attacks.

[Bob]

To the non-Jews in here (almost everyone), don't be fooled by organization claiming to be Jewish. I am more than sure that most of the membership of these anti-Israel organization are not Jewish, although they claim to be. At the very least, those who actually do have Jewish heritage are, tragically, more than likely very out-of-touch with Judaism and Jewish culture and history. Basically, their understanding and connection to the Jewish people and our heritage, religion, and history begins and ends with Schindler's List or the Pianist. It's sad, but they are very disconnected from our people and certainly are out-of-touch with reality and with the needs and perspectives of the Jewish people.

[naomiglover]

To the non-Jews in here (almost everyone), don't be fooled by organization claiming to be Jewish. I am more than sure that most of the membership of these anti-Israel organization are not Jewish, although they claim to be. At the very least, those who actually do have Jewish heritage are, tragically, more than likely very out-of-touch with Judaism and Jewish culture and history. Basically, their understanding and connection to the Jewish people and our heritage, religion, and history begins and ends with Schindler's List or the Pianist. It's sad, but they are very disconnected from our people and certainly are out-of-touch with reality and with the needs and perspectives of the Jewish people.

You can listen to Bob's foaming from the mouth or you can visit the web site and find out more about these Jewish Organizations yourselves:

http://jewishvoiceforpeace.com/

http://www.youngjewishproud.org/

Racist Zionist Jews such as Bob, who is part of the problem by living in the illegal settlements in East Jerusalem know that things are changing. More and more Jews are speaking out against the racist, unjust and illegal treatment of the Palestinians by the Zionist government. The biggest change is apparent in North America.

[ToadBrother]

To the non-Jews in here (almost everyone), don't be fooled by organization claiming to be Jewish. I am more than sure that most of the membership of these anti-Israel organization are not Jewish, although they claim to be. At the very least, those who actually do have Jewish heritage are, tragically, more than likely very out-of-touch with Judaism and Jewish culture and history. Basically, their understanding and connection to the Jewish people and our heritage, religion, and history begins and ends with Schindler's List or the Pianist. It's sad, but they are very disconnected from our people and certainly are out-of-touch with reality and with the needs and perspectives of the Jewish people.

I think that's taking things pretty far, don't you? How can you make a claim like this? I've certainly talked to a few Jews who do not approve of everything Israel does, and there are some within Israel who feel the same way.

What you've invoked is a class No True Scotsman fallacy, or I guess in this case No True Jew fallacy. In your case, rather than hagis, the fallacy reads "All Jews support Israel unconditionally... My uncle is a Jew and he condemns Israel... Well all true Jews support Israel unconditionally."

Israel is a country, not a race. Attacking Israel is not synonymous with attacking Jews.

Edited November 19, 2010 by ToadBrother

[Shady]

So tell me, where are the young Palestinians protesting Hamas?

Exactly. They can't. Because they'd be killed. However, people of naomi's ilk, don't really give a shit about Palestinian human rights. It's all about criticizing Israel.

[Bob]

I think that's taking things pretty far, don't you? How can you make a claim like this? I've certainly talked to a few Jews who do not approve of everything Israel does, and there are some within Israel who feel the same way.

What you've invoked is a class No True Scotsman fallacy, or I guess in this case No True Jew fallacy. In your case, rather than hagis, the fallacy reads "All Jews support Israel unconditionally... My uncle is a Jew and he condemns Israel... Well all true Jews support Israel unconditionally."

Israel is a country, not a race. Attacking Israel is not synonymous with attacking Jews.

There's a stronger connection between Israel and Jewish people who have a stronger and richer sense of Jewish identity than between Israel and disconnected Jews. Of course criticizing Israel in and of itself isn't inherently anti-semitic. More often than not, however, anti-Israeli criticism, when your peel back the layers of the opposition, is rooted in a fundamental opposition to Jewish independence and self-determination. Jewish independence and self-determination (which includes the preservation of our ways of life as well as continued development) is inextricable from statehood. Opposing those fundamentals is anti-semitic, as it condemns us to the subjugation of others and disconnection from our homeland.

As far a "real Jews" go, those who do not live a Jewish lifestyle have no right to speak on behalf of us who do live a Jewish lifestyle. If a person of Jewish heritage, who is almost completely disconnected from his or her people and culture, is unconcerned about the preservation of the Jewish culture, faith, and homeland: should we be surprised? I would imagine naomiglover considers herself an atheist and views religion and faith as an archaic cultural artifact that should be gotten rid of. People like her attempt to utilize their heritage to add legitimacy to their positions, as if someone they are "insiders" with the "courage" to "speak out" against "their communities". The truth is, however, that they are no insiders, are not a part of our community, and therefore have no stake in spewing heir rhetoric. Moreover, they are in no position to speak on behalf of Jewish interests as they do not live a Jewish lifestyle and are virtually completely assimilated and indistinguishable from non-Jews.

At the risk of oversimplifying, they are like Jewish "Uncle Toms".

Of course there are "real Jews" who are disturbingly critical of Israel and misguided, but they are a tiny minority. They are certainly not representative of Jewish interests.

As far as naomiglover goes, I guess I shouldn't be surprised when someone like herself calls me a racist. Disagreeing with people like her, and being unapologetic about independence, self-determination, and our basic rights.... somehow becomes "racism".

[ToadBrother]

There's a stronger connection between Israel and Jewish people who have a stronger and richer sense of Jewish identity than between Israel and disconnected Jews. Of course criticizing Israel in and of itself isn't inherently anti-semitic. More often than not, however, anti-Israeli criticism, when your peel back the layers of the opposition, is rooted in a fundamental opposition to Jewish independence and self-determination. Jewish independence and self-determination (which includes the preservation of our ways of life as well as continued development) is inextricable from statehood. Opposing those fundamentals is anti-semitic, as it condemns us to the subjugation of others and disconnection from our homeland.

As far a "real Jews" go, those who do not live a Jewish lifestyle have no right to speak on behalf of us who do live a Jewish lifestyle. If a person of Jewish heritage, who is almost completely disconnected from his or her people and culture, is unconcerned about the preservation of the Jewish culture, faith, and homeland: should we be surprised? I would imagine naomiglover considers herself an atheist and views religion and faith as an archaic cultural artifact that should be gotten rid of. People like her attempt to utilize their heritage to add legitimacy to their positions, as if someone they are "insiders" with the "courage" to "speak out" against "their communities". The truth is, however, that they are no insiders, are not a part of our community, and therefore have no stake in spewing heir rhetoric. Moreover, they are in no position to speak on behalf of Jewish interests as they do not live a Jewish lifestyle and are virtually completely assimilated and indistinguishable from non-Jews.

At the risk of oversimplifying, they are like Jewish "Uncle Toms".

Of course there are "real Jews" who are disturbingly critical of Israel and misguided, but they are a tiny minority. They are certainly not representative of Jewish interests.

You've done nothing to actually prove your point. You just keep reiterating the same fallacious thinking over and over again. As I said, I don't buy it. You're simply trying to reject any criticism from Jews by basically asserting they aren't true, or at least good, Jews. It's biased, prejudicial and fallacious, everything pointing to a crap claim.

Israel is not perfect by any stretch. I support its existence, and certainly don't approve of the methods of Palestinians. But Israel has some serious systemic problems, most serious being that a rather small group of religious fanatics have far too much control over who forms government.

[ToadBrother]

Exactly. They can't. Because they'd be killed. However, people of naomi's ilk, don't really give a shit about Palestinian human rights. It's all about criticizing Israel.

Hell, I'd be happy to see some Palestinian ex-pats outside the Middle East condemn Hamas.

[Bob]

You've done nothing to actually prove your point. You just keep reiterating the same fallacious thinking over and over again. As I said, I don't buy it. You're simply trying to reject any criticism from Jews by basically asserting they aren't true, or at least good, Jews. It's biased, prejudicial and fallacious, everything pointing to a crap claim.

Israel is not perfect by any stretch. I support its existence, and certainly don't approve of the methods of Palestinians. But Israel has some serious systemic problems, most serious being that a rather small group of religious fanatics have far too much control over who forms government.

The point is simple: Israel is the homeland of the Jewish people, and its purpose is to be the eternal homeland for us where our ways of life, values, faith, language, and heritage are preserved. People of Jewish heritage who have assimilated don't care about these things. They don't follow our religious values in any meaningful way, they are out-of-touch with our history and heritage, and they simply don't care about the preservation and continued development of our culture. If they don't care about these fundamentals, why are their opinions to be listened to? They speak from a non-Jewish perspective. Just because their last name might be "Goldman" doesn't add weight to their views. If you are disconnected from the Jewish people and have no stake or concern in our cultural preservation and development, as well as the independence and self-determination of our people, then you don't speak on our behalf. It's that simple.

It's like a person with Catholic parents who is now a self-proclaimed atheist saying he or she speaks for the Catholic community. If you're not a Catholic, and don't care about Catholicism, you cannot speak for Catholic interests. What I'm saying is that someone's heritage, in and of itself, doesn't add much credibility to one's statements, especially when the heritage begins and ends with one's last name.

As far as your commentary on Israeli politics, I don't think there's much for me to say. I don't anticipate I can have a meaningful dialogue with someone who has no connection to Israel and whose knowledge of Israel's political system doesn't go beyond reading a few CNN articles in the "Middle East" section.

[dre]

I am more than sure that most of the membership of these anti-Israel organization are not Jewish, although they claim to be.

Sorry Bob but you dont speak for jews anymore than those people do. There plenty of debate among jews as to whether or not various things that the nation state of Israel does are legal, moral, or smart.

[Bob]

I've been Jewish for quite a long time. I think I know quite a few things about the Jewish community. I have spent hundreds of hours speaking with all sorts of Jews about all sorts of things relating to Israel. I have seen strong trends. The connection between a weaker Jewish identity significantly increasing the likelihood of a weaker connection with and support for Israel is undeniable. The inverse is also true.

I don't need any of you to believe this. If you're interested in having insight into Jewish perspectives towards the Israeli-Arab conflict, then read my posts. If you want to reaffirm your own ideological leanings by convincing yourselves that there is some sort of vigorous debate among the Jewish people regarding the fundamentals, feel free to revel in your fantasies. The truth is that the worldwide Jewish community is strongly united on the fundamentals: Jewish statehood being our vehicle for the self-determination and independence of our people. The worldwide Jewish community, however, doesn't really include those who have no connection to our people and those who do not care about our people's preservation and ongoing development.

If you want to believe that these anti-Israel and anti-Semitic "Jewish groups" are primarily composed of Jewish people, go ahead. If you also want to believe that someone is Jewish and is in touch with the Jewish community just because his or her last name is "Goldman", go ahead. I am confident that the majority of the membership of these anti-Israel and anti-Semitic "Jewish groups" isn't Jewish, or, at the very least, is composed is those with Jewish heritage but not tangible or meaningful connection to the Jewish people or Jewish way of life.

[Jack Weber]

To the non-Jews in here (almost everyone), don't be fooled by organization claiming to be Jewish. I am more than sure that most of the membership of these anti-Israel organization are not Jewish, although they claim to be. At the very least, those who actually do have Jewish heritage are, tragically, more than likely very out-of-touch with Judaism and Jewish culture and history. Basically, their understanding and connection to the Jewish people and our heritage, religion, and history begins and ends with Schindler's List or the Pianist. It's sad, but they are very disconnected from our people and certainly are out-of-touch with reality and with the needs and perspectives of the Jewish people.

Bob...I don't know who I'm disgusted with worse..

The Hamas/Islamic Jihad/Hezbollah/Islamofascist apologists.(Naomi and others here)

Or the Israel Uber Alles crowd,which you clearly represent...

Both are extremes that are untennable....

[ToadBrother]

The point is simple: Israel is the homeland of the Jewish people, and its purpose is to be the eternal homeland for us where our ways of life, values, faith, language, and heritage are preserved. People of Jewish heritage who have assimilated don't care about these things. They don't follow our religious values in any meaningful way, they are out-of-touch with our history and heritage, and they simply don't care about the preservation and continued development of our culture. If they don't care about these fundamentals, why are their opinions to be listened to? They speak from a non-Jewish perspective. Just because their last name might be "Goldman" doesn't add weight to their views. If you are disconnected from the Jewish people and have no stake or concern in our cultural preservation and development, as well as the independence and self-determination of our people, then you don't speak on our behalf. It's that simple.

It's like a person with Catholic parents who is now a self-proclaimed atheist saying he or she speaks for the Catholic community. If you're not a Catholic, and don't care about Catholicism, you cannot speak for Catholic interests. What I'm saying is that someone's heritage, in and of itself, doesn't add much credibility to one's statements, especially when the heritage begins and ends with one's last name.

As far as your commentary on Israeli politics, I don't think there's much for me to say. I don't anticipate I can have a meaningful dialogue with someone who has no connection to Israel and whose knowledge of Israel's political system doesn't go beyond reading a few CNN articles in the "Middle East" section.

Translation: I'm a Jingoistic fanatic who will invoke every nationalistic and fallacious argument in my arsenal.

The only people here who one can't have a sensible conversation with is you and Naomi. Both of you, in your own ways, are bigots, and probably incurable ones.

[Bob]

Bob...I don't know who I'm disgusted with worse..

The Hamas/Islamic Jihad/Hezbollah/Islamofascist apologists.(Naomi and others here)

Or the Israel Uber Alles crowd,which you clearly represent...

Both are extremes that are untennable....

So, you attempt to wrap up a personal attack against me in a statement drawing moral equivalence between Israel and its enemies? I support a few basic things: Jewish independence and self-determination, and Jewish cultural preservation and continued development. I guess that makes me an extremist in your moral-relativist view.

[ToadBrother]

I've been Jewish for quite a long time. I think I know quite a few things about the Jewish community. I have spent hundreds of hours speaking with all sorts of Jews about all sorts of things relating to Israel. I have seen strong trends. The connection between a weaker Jewish identity significantly increasing the likelihood of a weaker connection with and support for Israel is undeniable. The inverse is also true.

I don't accept that you're any kind of spokesman for world Jewry. Jews are not some big massive monolithic group that you can assert the level of homogeneity that you do. Even within Israel there is a wide number of views, and certainly there are a large number of Israelis who tire of a small fanatical minority driving government policy simply because the electoral system gives them more weight than actual numbers warrant.

[ToadBrother]

So, you attempt to wrap up a personal attack against me in a statement drawing moral equivalence between Israel and its enemies? I support a few basic things: Jewish independence and self-determination, and Jewish cultural preservation and continued development. I guess that makes me an extremist in your moral-relativist view.

What makes you an extremist is that you are unable to accept that even among Jews there is no singular view on Israel. To defend your position you throw logic and good argument out the window, not to mention asserting a level of knowledge of Jewish opinion on Israel that anybody with any familiarity with the subject knows is false. Inside and outside Israel there is considerable variance on opinion as to the actions of the Israeli state. That leads to a surer sign of your bigotry, that you attempt through fallacious claim and assertions as to your own extent of knowledge that any Jew who doesn't agree with you is somehow not properly a Jew.

You're a bigot. Live with it.

[Bob]

I don't accept that you're any kind of spokesman for world Jewry. Jews are not some big massive monolithic group that you can assert the level of homogeneity that you do. Even within Israel there is a wide number of views, and certainly there are a large number of Israelis who tire of a small fanatical minority driving government policy simply because the electoral system gives them more weight than actual numbers warrant.

I never said we were monolithic. Indeed, we're incredibly diverse and multifaceted. When it comes to the fundamentals of Israel, however, there is strong unity. Those fundamentals are simple: that Israel is the eternal homeland of our people, and will always be the state in which we can fully express ourselves in our own land. There is no serious debate between Jews with respect to our basic rights of independence and self-determination. People like naomiglover and her anti-Semitic affiliations, who oppose our people's rights to independence and self-determination, are not a serious contingent of world Jewry. Moreover, they are almost entirely composed of people with only Jewish heritage, but without real Jewish connection. Since they do not care about the preservation and continued development of Jewish culture (as is evidenced by their lifestyle), why should we listen to their views on the wishes of the Jewish people? If they can't name the Jewish holidays, have no familiarity with Jewish prayer, cannot explain Kashrut's fundamentals, or understand anything else essential to Judaism: then why are we listening to them? Now before anyone states that I am excommunicating out-of-touch Jews from the Jewish community, let me be clear that I am specifically referring to those assimilated Jews who have no desire to learn about their own heritage and take a part in its preservation or development. I'm doing my part to ensure that Judaism doesn't get relegated to encyclopedias and museums.

If someone has Russian heritage, but doesn't speak Russian, doesn't know Russian history, doesn't know or understand Russian culture, doesn't know Russian food... is he or she really Russian? You think because someone's first name is Vladimir that they are somehow connected to the Russian people, culture, history, and values?

[Bob]

What makes you an extremist is that you are unable to accept that even among Jews there is no singular view on Israel. To defend your position you throw logic and good argument out the window, not to mention asserting a level of knowledge of Jewish opinion on Israel that anybody with any familiarity with the subject knows is false. Inside and outside Israel there is considerable variance on opinion as to the actions of the Israeli state. That leads to a surer sign of your bigotry, that you attempt through fallacious claim and assertions as to your own extent of knowledge that any Jew who doesn't agree with you is somehow not properly a Jew.

You're a bigot. Live with it.

Ah, this is where you're now twisting my words. I never said or even implied that there is uniformity of opinion among Jews towards the actions of the Israeli government. What I said, quite clearly, was that worldwide Jewry are virtually completely united on the fundamentals of Israel. Furthermore, the tiny contingent of "Jews" who oppose Jewish independence and self-determination are generally Jewish in name, only. They are not Jewish in their day-to-day lives.

I'm not really sure why you're trying to argue with me here, as I'm simply telling you how things are. How this makes me a bigot, I am unsure. I've said nothing bigoted or offensive (unless you're opposed to the basic rights of the Jewish people or Jews actually living a Jewish lifestyle). I guess when you've fallen into desperation, you resort to infantile name-calling. Congratulations.

[ToadBrother]

I never said we were monolithic. Indeed, we're incredibly diverse and multifaceted. When it comes to the fundamentals of Israel, however, there is strong unity. Those fundamentals are simple: that Israel is the eternal homeland of our people, and will always be the state in which we can fully express ourselves in our own land. There is no serious debate between Jews with respect to our basic rights of independence and self-determination. People like naomiglover and her anti-Semitic affiliations, who oppose our people's rights to independence and self-determination, are not a serious contingent of world Jewry. Moreover, they are almost entirely composed of people with only Jewish heritage, but without real Jewish connection. Since they do not care about the preservation and continued development of Jewish culture (as is evidenced by their lifestyle), why should we listen to their views on the wishes of the Jewish people? If they can't name the Jewish holidays, have no familiarity with Jewish prayer, cannot explain Kashrut's fundamentals, or understand anything else essential to Judaism: then why are we listening to them? Now before anyone states that I am excommunicating out-of-touch Jews from the Jewish community, let me be clear that I am specifically referring to those assimilated Jews who have no desire to learn about their own heritage and take a part in its preservation or development. I'm doing my part to ensure that Judaism doesn't get relegated to encyclopedias and museums.

If someone has Russian heritage, but doesn't speak Russian, doesn't know Russian history, doesn't know or understand Russian culture, doesn't know Russian food... is he or she really Russian? You think because someone's first name is Vladimir that they are somehow connected to the Russian people, culture, history, and values?

You keep asserting the same No True Scotsmen fallacy. You can't accept that not all Jews approve of every act of the Israeli state, so you simply move them into the "bad Jew" category. It's a ludicrous, unsupportable position, and yet all you can do is keep asserting it over and over again. Like most bigots, you quickly become a broken record, repeating the same illegitimate assertions over and over and over again.

Here's a tip. An invalid assertion doesn't somehow become true because you keep repeating it.

The worst for you, Bob, is that you won't find too many people in these forums who dislike Naomi as much as I do. I have argued extensively against her, and frankly think that due to the Arab's constant hostilities during the first few decades of Israel's existence, the Palestinians are going to have accept that like any vanquished people, there's a loss of territory.

But what I don't make is an argument based on mystical jingoism. I make it from the position that every incident of a belligerent losing a war in the last hundred years has lead to a loss of territory. Germany losing control the Rhineland after WWI, loss of chunks of territory to Poland and Czechoslovakia after WWII and Japan's loss of the Kurils after WWII being my favorite examples.

Edited November 19, 2010 by ToadBrother

[ToadBrother]

Ah, this is where you're now twisting my words. I never said or even implied that there is uniformity of opinion among Jews towards the actions of the Israeli government. What I said, quite clearly, was that worldwide Jewry are virtually completely united on the fundamentals of Israel. Furthermore, the tiny contingent of "Jews" who oppose Jewish independence and self-determination are generally Jewish in name, only. They are not Jewish in their day-to-day lives.

World Jewry is largely united on Israel's right to exist as a homeland for the Jewish people. Go beyond that basic tenet and you start seeing considerable divergence. For instance, there are plenty of Jews inside and outside Israel who are against the continued building of Settlements. I'm sure there are some people who aren't proper Jews by your particular definition, but there are also people who are. You're trying to make those Jews disappear by claiming they aren't real Jews.

I'm not really sure why you're trying to argue with me here, as I'm simply telling you how things are. How this makes me a bigot, I am unsure. I've said nothing bigoted or offensive (unless you're opposed to the basic rights of the Jewish people or Jews actually living a Jewish lifestyle). I guess when you've fallen into desperation, you resort to infantile name-calling. Congratulations.

You're a bigot because your more extreme, practically mystical views, are passed off as being proscriptive upon the entire Jewish people. Furthermore, when it's pointed out that some Jews don't agree with the Israeli states actions, you assert that all those Jews are not legitimate Jews. It's a No True Scotsman fallacy in its purest form.

Edited November 19, 2010 by ToadBrother

[Bob]

I specifically said that the worldwide Jewish community is virtually completely united on the fundamentals of Israel. I never so much as implied that the worldwide Jewish community was uniformly supportive of all the actions of the State of Israel. I myself, am very critical of this country, although not in the conventional knee-jerk anti-Semitic manner.

[ToadBrother]

I specifically said that the worldwide Jewish community is virtually completely united on the fundamentals of Israel. I never so much as implied that the worldwide Jewish community was uniformly supportive of all the actions of the State of Israel. I myself, am very critical of this country, although not in the conventional knee-jerk anti-Semitic manner.

Go back and read your first few posts. You do not come off as rational at all, and very bigoted.

[Bob]

I won't continue this exchange with you, as this is the third or fourth time you've misrepresented my position and attacked things I never even implied. I agree with you: there isn't uniformity among Jews with respect to our feelings and perspectives about the actions of the Israeli government. I contended the opposing view, though, which is what you're continually attacking.

Jewish unity with respect to Israel goes far beyond this country simply being the Jewish homeland. There are natural extensions to that fundamental component upon which there is widespread Jewish support. This is the country through which we manifest our independence, self-determination, as well as our cultural preservation and continued development.

End of story. Have a nice day.