Civilization v. Savagery - From Middle East to Europe and Back Again

[Argus]

Islam is a very large and divided religion.

Perhaps, but yet so very many Muslims seem to feel more kinship with fellow Muslims in nations halfway around the world than they do with the people who live on their own streets.

[Michael Hardner]

Perhaps, but yet so very many Muslims seem to feel more kinship with fellow Muslims in nations halfway around the world than they do with the people who live on their own streets.

Unprovable, unknowable.

There's no reason to think that they will behave any different from other groups that have immigrated here. I can see it with my own eyes, which - while not statistically rigorous - is a better check on reality than providing news items of terrorist attacks in Indonesia.

[Oleg Bach]

Unprovable, unknowable.

There's no reason to think that they will behave any different from other groups that have immigrated here. I can see it with my own eyes, which - while not statistically rigorous - is a better check on reality than providing news items of terrorist attacks in Indonesia.

Thinking something does not make it so. I am sure that there are Muslims that are kind hearted and benevolent towards there fellow human beings...I have met them - I have also seen Muslims that look at me with hate and would kill me..but then again - I see anlo Christians and Jews that hold humanity in general loathing and contempt..BUT - better to stay on guard...culture is not an odd or undefinable entity..People with real culture always do whats right...Hicks full of violence and savagery have no real culture...Yes there are Muslim hicks..they are the ones who will put on a bomb vest.

[Guest TrueMetis]

Perhaps, but yet so very many Muslims seem to feel more kinship with fellow Muslims in nations halfway around the world than they do with the people who live on their own streets.

Ya? Prove it.

If Canadians were travelling around the world murdering people in the name of Canada I think I might feel a little bit of value in denouncing such behaviour and making sure the world knew it didn't represent me. And I wouldn't be much surprised that the world would grow increasingly suspicious of Canadians if I didn't, and if the violence continued.

I wouldn't and I'd be pretty pissed off if people expected me to.

Edited November 19, 2010 by TrueMetis

[Oleg Bach]

Ya? Prove it.

I wouldn't and I'd be pretty pissed of if people expected me to.

Killing twenty civilians at a wedding party while trying to get one high ranking crooks shows a great lack of skill. Don't go to war unless you are skillful..apparently the art of war has degraded to the art of murder..whether with intent or not..murder or manslaughter is not something that can be tolerated..If we are to continue to attempt to calm what we consider non-compliant savages.we had better get better at killing the leadership..instead we seem to kill innocent people by accident...I guess we are not that civilized because we have a low skill level..hence a debased and mediocre culture.

[GostHacked]

Will Islam let you live and let live? Of course not. Islam as an ideology has no interest in becoming part of a rich tapestry of beliefs in any culture. Its mandate is that of the final word on the subject.

It's tough being an atheist/agnostic among any relgious group.

Oddly, we don't get a lot of threads started about Judeaism and Christianity the religions/ideologies. Maybe you'll start one.

Yes we have had those threads. Thanks for paying attention.

Strawman. Nowhere do I state I hate all Muslims. They should all drop this backwards dark-age cult and join the 21st century.

No, you hate Islam and Muslims, eventhough you stop yourself short of saying so. Again, are you afraid of relatiation from that group if you say so?

Sure you are. Publish a cartoon with the Big M--- on it and make sure to give your name and address. Many folks of any influence that dare take a poke @ Islam are in for a rude surprise...even here in "safe" old Canada.

Dude, you can't even seem to bring yourself to say Muhammed or Mohammed or however you spell it.

When was it hijacked? I hear this term all the time yet Islamic terrorism has been around as long as I've been alive...and apparently as long as ol' Winston was alive, too. So when

?

For me it has only been in the past decade that the religion has been hijacked.

Isn't Canada doing just that in Afghanistan? Helping the 'victims' of so-called radical Islam? I think we even plan a cut n' run in order to help these 'victims' better.

No it was never about helping people. Because for the most part the laws of Afghanistan today under Karzai are the same Sharia based laws that the Taliban used, which we went in to change. Good job. That there is a failure. It was never about freedom and helping that country, we went in because there was something for us.

While I asked you to avoid relativism, multiculturalism has served you well. The mosque in my city practices open segregation between men and women. Explain in your own words how allowing women to become 2nd class citizens in Canada is a good thing...avoid relativism if your brain will allow it

.

They have the option, they still choose to go with Islam. What about the segregation in the Catholic schools? Is that right? Moral reletavism my ass. We can play this game for hours without progress.

What rhetoric?

The rhetoric that Islam = Bad.

[moderateamericain]

The problem with Islam is that its wielded by its acolytes to suppress and browbeat its practitioners. The religious teachings in the Koran are not the problem. Its how its used by a larger portion of the Imams that's the problem. The preach hate and ignorance, look at Arab Cartoons that children watch, look at comparisons between Palestinian propaganda and Nazi propaganda about the Jews. You will see a scary similarity in though process. And Germans and middle easterners could not be more different in cultural norms.

Some of the posters here may take it a bit too far. but more of you need to take your blinders off.

"When someone says they are going to kill you believe them"

-Survivor of Auschwitz

[Michael Hardner]

The problem with Islam is that its wielded by its acolytes to suppress and browbeat its practitioners. The religious teachings in the Koran are not the problem. Its how its used by a larger portion of the Imams that's the problem.

That's not the religion, that's the culture. And culture is primarily a local issue. You will find similar examples of brutality in cultures that lack institutions, education, laws, and an open society.

[jbg]

The problem with Islam is that its wielded by its acolytes to suppress and browbeat its practitioners. The religious teachings in the Koran are not the problem. Its how its used by a larger portion of the Imams that's the problem.

That's exactly what we're taught in Torah (first five books of Bible) study when we read the mroe violent passages. We're taught that the text matters less than what the respective religions/cultures do with the text.

[Argus]

Unprovable, unknowable.

There's no reason to think that they will behave any different from other groups that have immigrated here.

They already ARE behaving differently. The phenomenon of "home grown" Muslim terrorists attacking their fellow citizens on behalf of their fellow Muslims has now been witnessed in half a dozen western states which allowed Muslim immigrants. These Muslims are attacking their fellow citizens not based on their treatment, but based on their perception that their adopted nation is somehow responsible, in whole or part, in some sort of violence or disrespect against fellow Muslims half a world away in countries they have never seen or visited and never will.

So far the Muslims in Canada who sought to do the same have been caught beforehand, but it's inevitable that one will not be noticed and will wind up killing people, perhaps blowing up buildings. And their clear motivation is they feel more kinship with those far away Muslims than with their fellow citizens.

Edited November 21, 2010 by Argus

[jbg]

Unprovable, unknowable.

There's no reason to think that they will behave any different from other groups that have immigrated here. I can see it with my own eyes, which - while not statistically rigorous - is a better check on reality than providing news items of terrorist attacks in Indonesia.

Except from examples such as the gang of 12 they are acting differently.

[Bonam]

Muslims defame themselves. Do you know that the UAE, that paragon of moderate Islam in the middle east recently codified in law how men should beat their wives and children? Yes, they took the old loan shark behaviour of beating someone without leaving marks as the will of God and said that's how it should be done.

Women in Muslim nations, particularly in the Middle East, are largely chattel at the mercy of a culture which sees their only purpose in life as baby breeders.

Hey if it doesn't leave marks it can't be that bad right? All good and proper if you ask me! The whole baby breeder thing sounds like it's working well also, the Middle East has a youthful and growing population unlike the sub-replacement death-spiral of the West. Perhaps we should be learning from Islam. That's what multiculturalism is all about, embracing the good aspects of other cultures, to create a more prosperous society!

[Bonam]

Unprovable, unknowable.

There's no reason to think that they will behave any different from other groups that have immigrated here. I can see it with my own eyes, which - while not statistically rigorous - is a better check on reality than providing news items of terrorist attacks in Indonesia.

Actually there is every reason to think that they will. Past waves of immigration have been disconnected almost completely from their homeland. Even just 30 years ago, the most an immigrant could typically hope for was an occasional phone call to/from their country of origin. Modern immigrants can stay connected with their friends and relatives and old cultures in their homelands on a daily basis, at very very little cost. Thus, they can and will maintain much stronger ties to their prior cultures, rather than being mercilessly immersed and forced to adapt and assimilate to the culture of the country they immigrated to, as previous waves of immigrants have been.

Edited November 21, 2010 by Bonam

[Michael Hardner]

Actually there is every reason to think that they will. Past waves of immigration have been disconnected almost completely from their homeland. Even just 30 years ago, the most an immigrant could typically hope for was an occasional phone call to/from their country of origin. Modern immigrants can stay connected with their friends and relatives and old cultures in their homelands on a daily basis, at very very little cost. Thus, they can and will maintain much stronger ties to their prior cultures, rather than being mercilessly immersed and forced to adapt and assimilate to the culture of the country they immigrated to, as previous waves of immigrants have been.

That's an interesting point. I don't have an idea on whether this is significant enough to make a difference, but you're right - it is different. I have to concur that the group is actually different, based on Argus and your comment. We are accepting a group who - rightly or wrongly - has elements that perceive we are at war with them, and that group stays in touch with their home culture.

[Argus]

Thus, they can and will maintain much stronger ties to their prior cultures, rather than being mercilessly immersed and forced to adapt and assimilate to the culture of the country they immigrated to, as previous waves of immigrants have been.

Many Muslims send their children "home" to find a suitable marriage partner, as well. Why? First, because they see Canadian culture as being less moral than where they came from. Second, to ensure the grandchildren are brought up not only with their homeland's sense of morality and values, but with a constant reminder of how important a place their "homeland" is to them. In addition, of course, the prospect of a Canadian passport, a free pass into Canada, as it were, is extremely valuable in an economic sense in many countries. Parents can arrange that their children attract a mate from a more prosperous, more influential and higher status family than they would otherwise, because marrying their child brings a Canadian passport.

[Peter F]

They already ARE behaving differently. The phenomenon of "home grown" Muslim terrorists attacking their fellow citizens on behalf of their fellow Muslims has now been witnessed in half a dozen western states which allowed Muslim immigrants. These Muslims are attacking their fellow citizens not based on their treatment, but based on their perception that their adopted nation is somehow responsible, in whole or part, in some sort of violence or disrespect against fellow Muslims half a world away in countries they have never seen or visited and never will.

So far the Muslims in Canada who sought to do the same have been caught beforehand, but it's inevitable that one will not be noticed and will wind up killing people, perhaps blowing up buildings. And their clear motivation is they feel more kinship with those far away Muslims than with their fellow citizens.

Well Yah. I guess anyone doing these things has a reason - silly or not - for doing so. People who drown their children in bathtubs are also wierd and undesireable immigrants or maybe not immigrants but actual citizens but undesireable nevertheless.

Lots of people behave differently, not just muslims. Lots of people murder and kill for silly reasons - not just muslim immigrants.

We got a lot of homegrown shit and it aint just muslims

[jbg]

Many Muslims send their children "home" to find a suitable marriage partner, as well. Why?

Faux Canadians if you ask my opinion.

[Sir Bandelot]

Faux Canadians if you ask my opinion.

Oh yeah? Well faux you too

[DogOnPorch]

It's tough being an atheist/agnostic among any relgious group.

Not really. Most don't give a gosh darn what you think.

Yes we have had those threads. Thanks for paying attention.

I said we don't get many...

No, you hate Islam and Muslims, eventhough you stop yourself short of saying so. Again, are you afraid of relatiation from that group if you say so?

Islam sucks. I've said it dozens of times on these forums. I've also been threatened via PMs on this forum.

Dude, you can't even seem to bring yourself to say Muhammed or Mohammed or however you spell it.

Eh? Think again.

?

For me it has only been in the past decade that the religion has been hijacked.

So Islam wasn't "hijacked" when it steam-rollered across the map and conquered itself an empire via the sword?

No it was never about helping people. Because for the most part the laws of Afghanistan today under Karzai are the same Sharia based laws that the Taliban used, which we went in to change. Good job. That there is a failure. It was never about freedom and helping that country, we went in because there was something for us.

Like what?

They have the option, they still choose to go with Islam. What about the segregation in the Catholic schools? Is that right? Moral reletavism my ass. We can play this game for hours without progress.

Apologizing for Islam's horrible treatment of women and gays by relating it to some other religion is indeed relativism.

DOP: Sharia allows women to be stoned and gays to be hanged.

GH: The RC church makes some nuns dress like penguins.

DOP: Therefore it's OK to stone women and hang gays?

--

The rhetoric that Islam = Bad.

Islam is bad for us...and by us I don't mean YOU. It doesn't mesh with values like freedom of speech, democracy, women's rights, etc.

[Rue]

And that's a bad thing?

Yes in many cases. You are proving that point.

If you need further clarification let me know.

Here's a hint-people like to use the Bible to speak

in absolute terms to justify their

intolerance of others.

In your case, of course, you manage quite well without quoting the

Bible.

Edited November 24, 2010 by Rue

[Rue]

Faux Canadians if you ask my opinion.

Actually I didn't. Nor probably do most Canadians need you to lecture them

on who a Canadian is.

This Jew tells you, that to do as you do and that is to

engage in a platform to try rationalize negative generalizations against

Muslims as you do, is a crock.

You trot out all the stereotypes people use against we Jews only you do it

against Muslims.

If a Muslim chooses to marry a Muslim according to their religion it does not make

them any less a Canadian then a Jew who feels they should marry a Jew or a Christian

a Christian and so on.

Give it a rest.

[GostHacked]

Actually I didn't. Nor probably do most Canadians need you to lecture them

on who a Canadian is.

This Jew tells you, that to do as you do and that is to

engage in a platform to try rationalize negative generalizations against

Muslims as you do, is a crock.

You trot out all the stereotypes people use against we Jews only you do it

against Muslims.

If a Muslim chooses to marry a Muslim according to their religion it does not make

them any less a Canadian then a Jew who feels they should marry a Jew or a Christian

a Christian and so on.

Give it a rest.

Rue, you don't post enough these days. Thanks for this!

[Rue]

Apologizing for Islam's horrible treatment of women and gays by relating it to some other religion is indeed relativism.

Islam is bad for us...and by us I don't mean YOU. It doesn't mesh with values like freedom of speech, democracy, women's rights, etc.

Then good let me engage in relativism and no it does not mean I condone those Muslims who engage in extreme fundamentalism nor did it mean the other poster did. What we are saying is ALL religions have their extremist fundamentalists and to blame all Muslims for the views of extremist Muslims is as illogical as blaming all Jews for extremist fundamentalist Jews or all Christians for extremist fundamentalist Christians and so on.

No because Klu Klux Klan members claim they engage in their philosophy based on Christian religion does not mean all Christians are racist bigots.

That is the relativism the poster was engaging in. He is saying it is illogical to smeer an entire population of Muslims for the extremist views of some of its population and neither you nor JBG or anyone else is in the position to break down the entire population of Muslims in this world and tell me which ones are terrorists and extremists and which ones aren't. That was the point.

Now you state Islam is bad for us. Speak for yourself don't speak for me. This Jew unlike JBG was brought up to be respectful of Muslims, Christians, Hindus, atheists whoever. No they are not bad for me.

People who are bad for me are not bad for me simply because they are Muslim. They are bad for me because they use their religion to justify hating me. In that respect a Jew or Christian or Hindu could be just as bad for me if they preach hatred and intolerance.

In fact I believe JBG is very bad for me precisely because he preaches a form of hatred and it could be assuemd if we used his reasoning that he does against Muslims, that all jews are as hateful towards Muslims as he is. That of course would be illogical.

I believe he makes a mockery of the Jewish religion and everything it teaches. Judaism does not teach us to hate Muslims and disrespect their religion or make negative generalizations about them all. Christianity never taught its people that. Individuals in the name of their religions choose to take their religions and distort the meaning to justify their own personal opinions and need to be intolerant of others.

It is illogical and hateful to set about to deliberately generalize in negative terms the entire religion of Islam or any other religion.

There are beautiful passages in the Koran that talk of love, peace and harmony.

It has questionable passages just as the Bible does and other religous books do and yes all these books also have some very disturbing passages as well. All of them.

You want to set out to define something as "bad" then that is what you will find. Its call ed a slef-fullfilling prophecy.

No thank you but I am a big boy and I don't need you to tell me what is bad for me.

Dog you know me well enough-I will criticize Islamists if I believe they are using their religion to promote hatred, violence, war but no I will not hate all Muslims or discriminate against them all or make negative remarks about them all because of the acts of others. That is wrong, illogical and unfair.

It is done against Jews I am the first to challenge it as anti-semitism and I do not like it when people make all kinds of negative generalizations about me because I am a Jew and a Zionist no more then a Muslim or Palestinian likes it when people negatively stereotype them.

If someone wants to discuss a specific issue do so but to continually generalize in negative terms all Muslims is bull.

I was taught as a Jew and a Zionist to respect the Arab peoples and Muslims and I intend to do just that. I do that the same reason Christians were taught the same thing or why atheist humans do that. We were all taught the same golden rule, the same rule of respect for each other.

I use relativism to point out the lack of logic and absurdity in

stereotyping an entire people or their religion and for you to suggest

it can only be used to condone the bad parts of Islam is bull.

Show me once above where I condoned extremist intolerance by Muslims.

What I have said is its wrong to engage in extremist intolerance

whether it be by a Muslim, Jew or anyone else and if you can

not take the time to be clear in criticism of Islamic principles

that it is specific to those principles and not the entire

religion or people then I say thanks, but no I find any

exercise designed to dismiss all Muslims and their religion

as being illogical and inciting intolerance towards Muslims.

This is not the first time JBG has ran his anti Muslim threads and

it won't be the last I make the same point.

There is a way to discuss and criticize religious precepts without

dismissing an entire people or their religion.

If you can't find the intellectual discipline to differentiate between

precepts and an entire people or entire religion, then may I suggest

you try find that discipline otherwise you lower yourself to engaging

in hate mongering. Clearly we have enough of that in this world.

Edited November 24, 2010 by Rue

[GostHacked]

Not really. Most don't give a gosh darn what you think.

But you do, and you keep posting, trying to act like you don't care what I think.

Islam sucks. I've said it dozens of times on these forums. I've also been threatened via PMs on this forum.

Well, when you speak so much hate, I am not surprised. I've had no threatening PMs at all. I guess it is all in how you carry yourself on the boards. If you want to paint the target on your chest, then yes you are going to get some flack. If you speak truth, you can't be touched. And you misquoted me. I've said the Roman Catholic Church segregates girls from boys in different schools. Nothing about the nuns and how they are dressed.

[Jack Weber]

Then good let me engage in relativism and no it does not mean I condone those Muslims who engage in extreme fundamentalism nor did it mean the other poster did. What we are saying is ALL religions have their extremist fundamentalists and to blame all Muslims for the views of extremist Muslims is as illogical as blaming all Jews for extremist fundamentalist Jews or all Christians for extremist fundamentalist Christians and so on.

No because Klu Klux Klan members claim they engage in their philosophy based on Christian religion does not mean all Christians are racist bigots.

That is the relativism the poster was engaging in. He is saying it is illogical to smeer an entire population of Muslims for the extremist views of some of its population and neither you nor JBG or anyone else is in the position to break down the entire population of Muslims in this world and tell me which ones are terrorists and extremists and which ones aren't. That was the point.

Now you state Islam is bad for us. Speak for yourself don't speak for me. This Jew unlike JBG was brought up to be respectful of Muslims, Christians, Hindus, atheists whoever. No they are not bad for me.

People who are bad for me are not bad for me simply because they are Muslim. They are bad for me because they use their religion to justify hating me. In that respect a Jew or Christian or Hindu could be just as bad for me if they preach hatred and intolerance.

In fact I believe JBG is very bad for me precisely because he preaches a form of hatred and it could be assuemd if we used his reasoning that he does against Muslims, that all jews are as hateful towards Muslims as he is. That of course would be illogical.

I believe he makes a mockery of the Jewish religion and everything it teaches. Judaism does not teach us to hate Muslims and disrespect their religion or make negative generalizations about them all. Christianity never taught its people that. Individuals in the name of their religions choose to take their religions and distort the meaning to justify their own personal opinions and need to be intolerant of others.

It is illogical and hateful to set about to deliberately generalize in negative terms the entire religion of Islam or any other religion.

There are beautiful passages in the Koran that talk of love, peace and harmony.

It has questionable passages just as the Bible does and other religous books do and yes all these books also have some very disturbing passages as well. All of them.

You want to set out to define something as "bad" then that is what you will find. Its call ed a slef-fullfilling prophecy.

No thank you but I am a big boy and I don't need you to tell me what is bad for me.

Dog you know me well enough-I will criticize Islamists if I believe they are using their religion to promote hatred, violence, war but no I will not hate all Muslims or discriminate against them all or make negative remarks about them all because of the acts of others. That is wrong, illogical and unfair.

It is done against Jews and we call it anti-semitism and I do not like it when people make all kinds of negative generalizations about me because I am a Jew and a Zionist no more then a Muslim or Palestinian likes it when people negatively stereotype them.

Enough with the barely cloaked diatribe against all Muslims. Enough.

If someone wants to discuss a specific issue do so but to continually generalize in negative terms all Muslims is bull. I was taught as a Jew and a Zionist to respect the Arab peoples and Muslims and I intend to do just that. I do that the same reason Christians were taught the same thing or why atheist humans do that. We were all taught the same golden rule, the same rule of respect for each other.

Frankly...

Spot on!!!

Edited November 24, 2010 by Jack Weber