Ignore Terrorist Plots

[William Ashley]

Interesting conumdrum. A bomb is planned to go off tomorrow.....hundreds will be killed....but the information about the plot came from another source through torture. CSIS says Canada would act on that information. Opposition and Human Rights activists say that is wrong. The linked article does not specifically spell out the "imminence" of a threat but CSIS logically states that though they are opposed to torture, the protection of Canadians is paramount - regardless of the source of the information. What would YOU do?

Link: http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/100912/national/csis_torture

Intelligence is intelligence but it doesn't mean it will be accurate. I would be more prone to give false damaging intelligence or intelligence that allowed another plot to succeed if I was being tortured than give real information to spite those who would use such tactics.

Remember torture is a human rights violation (a war crime) and so should not be used (as to support the methods) but rather reported to the Hague for war crimes prosecution.

It is unfortunate that people can support war crimes in this day and age. It really says a lot about the society that has been made by our own government and their allies. I think Canadians need to stop and take a look at what their tax dollars are going to. Burning someones penis off by hours of searing it with a lighters flame and pissing in their nostrils while held upside down ain't where tax dollars should be going.

Edited September 13, 2010 by William Ashley

[nicky10013]

This is one of the biggest lies perpetuated on the public by the anti-security crowd.

Is it really? Proof?

[bloodyminded]

I think the torture advocates should stop cowardly avoiding the elephant in the room, and step up to the plate. You can't use words like "torture" as if it is some bland concept in which specifics don't matter.

What--exactly what--types of torture would you advocate; and which ones would you not?

And why?

Are there limits? If so...why?

Edited September 18, 2010 by bloodyminded

[Keepitsimple]

Whoa guys.....I should have known that this topic would open Pandora's box. It was NOT meant to condone torture - but to demonstrate the nuances of today's reality. We do not want our authorities to participate, contract our, or condone torture....but in some cases, to simply ignore information that comes our way through dubious methods could put Canadians at severe risk. Even trying to validate the information through other sources means we are treating the information with some degree of credibility. Added to that is the definition of torture - which is a thread in itself. It's a horrible position for our protection agencies to be in - but that's the reality.....and to just turn a complete deaf ear to such information seems to me to be very dangerous indeed. It can be a cruel world out there......and it's easy to be a critic when nobody dies.....but picture a scene of a typical terrorist bombing - in Toronto or Ottawa or Montreal - with limbs scattered all over....and we found out that we knew about it but because the information was obtained through torture, we did not act on it.....what do you think those critics would say? But of course, something like that could never happen in Canada. Right?

Edited September 13, 2010 by Keepitsimple

[charter.rights]

Whoa guys.....I should have known that this topic would open Pandora's box. It was NOT meant to condone torture - but to demonstrate the nuances of today's reality. We do not want our authorities to participate, contract our, or condone torture....but in some cases, to simply ignore information that comes our way through dubious methods could put Canadians at severe risk. Even trying to validate the information through other sources means we are treating the information with some degree of credibility. Added to that is the definition of torture - which is a thread in itself. It's a horrible position for our protection agencies to be in - but that's the reality.....and to just turn a complete deaf ear to such information seems to me to be very dangerous indeed. It can be a cruel world out there......and it's easy to be a critic when nobody dies.....but picture a scene of a typical terrorist bombing - in Toronto or Ottawa or Montreal - with limbs scattered all over....and we found out that we knew about it but because the information was obtained through torture, we did not act on it.....what do you think those critics would say? But of course, something like that could never happen in Canada. Right?

The ends never justifies the means.

[Oleg Bach]

WESTERN media greed for sensationalism is the down fall of any hope in containing lunitics that are duped into harming us..Why do we give them free advertisement in so far as their supposed up coming actions? It would be best to just get the job done..and stop granting millions of dollars of ad space to these people...

What we should be doing is educating these guys that do the dirty work supposedly in the name of God - for some chump calling himself a high priest of Islam who is just a common crimminal lusting for power and gets a boner when someone is killed indirectly by his hand....In other words - let the poor impoverished jerks that are the persective recruits to terrorism -KNOW that they are just being used by crimminals...

A campaign of logic should be launched that shows these duped fanatics that they are simply toys for power crazed creeps who would not know what to do with power once they attained it..

As for torture..we are all torture victims to some degree...and we all blurt out what ever are particular system wants to here - in order to ensure survival in this messed up and abusive world...a bit of justice would be helpful - but it seems THEY and US are not interested in old concepts like justice,honour and fair play.

[Oleg Bach]

Oh and by the way - If I were king and had people in my realm that believed torture was okay - I would put them into a dank and dark dungeon for a couple of months to re-think their hidden sadistic tendency.

[Oleg Bach]

And one more thing while I am here - who is this person who started this thread and what is the purpose and reasoning for it? Is it to create a type of poll that would inform some sinister son of a bitch that we will do the dirty work by okaying the tormenting of human beings? Something is amiss here.

[M.Dancer]

The Nazis did experiments on captive Jews that led to the cures and vaccines for many diseases.

Cough_BS_Cough

[M.Dancer]

medical experiments regarding the effects of cold water immersion.

That was the Japanese on Chinese.

[Topaz]

It's not surprsing the first one got most the votes. Having said that, one has to wonder why the Bush gang didn't take measures in Aug./2001 when they were told of the possible attack coming with planes? What did they not believe it could happen or just did they just LET it happen for their reasons? To gain Afghanistan and go into Iraq and gain control.

[jbg]

Having said that, one has to wonder why the Bush gang didn't take measures in Aug./2001 when they were told of the possible attack coming with planes?

I don't think the "chatter" was specific enough to allow countermeasures. For example they may have known that attacks were coming with planes. Were those planes heading for the Sears Tower in Chicago? The CN Tower in Toronto? The White House? 42 Sussex? The World Trade Center? The Empire State Building? Similarly the hijackings could have been from virtually any airport.

What did they not believe it could happen or just did they just LET it happen for their reasons? To gain Afghanistan and go Into Iraq and gain control.

Got to love those conspiracy theories.

They are facially ridiculous since either Bush or Cheney themselves could have been in a targeted building.

[Shady]

What--exactly what--types of torture would you advocate; and which ones would you not?

And why?

I would use waterboarding. For the information gathering of terrorist plots.

[Army Guy]

The answer to the question is simple, every piece of info in regards to public safety is acted upon, regardless of source, just like the fire dept response to every call, every 911 call an officer responds...Why7 would this not be any different, because you disagree with the source, or how it was gathered, give me a break...it is the publics safety we are talking about and lives are at stake....

I think the torture advocates should stop cowardly avoiding the elephant in the room, and stepo up to the plate. You can't use words like "torture" as if it is some bland concept in which specifics don't matter.

I by no means an advocate for torture, in the it's orginal sense of the word that is ...Today however like every thing else it has been liberalized to the piont that leaving a light on in a prisoners cell, 24 and 7 so they can be observed is considered torture, not allowing him to get a full 8 hours rest is considered torture, which could be why the word torture is being used in bland terms because today that is exactly the difination ....

What--exactly what--types of torture would you advocate; and which ones would you not?

And why?

Any that does not induce servere pain, or a fight or flight response...such as water boarding i don't advocate...

Leaving a light on, or limiting amount of sleep a prisoner gets by either loud music or what every means is a type of interogation tech...and when combined with a skilled interogator can and will produce reliable results but takes a long time to achieve....

Todays definations of torture have been so deluded that it is no longer black and white, and the definations only assist the bad guys into making false alligations, forcing our soldiers to create end rounds aound the problems.

For instance capture a combatant in a building, and you can not force him to search the building or show you any hidden traps or IED's, as it is a form of torture, mistreatment etc...

You can however force that individual to search his own car, ie open doors , trunks, start it shut it upand off, all done to intiate any IED or trap....

So there is clearly a blurring of the defination of what is torture and what is not...on the battle field we need to keep it simple or these laws will get broken daily....as some of them are....

Edited September 13, 2010 by Army Guy

[dre]

We shouldnt ignore ANY intelligence. We should take all the information that comes in, and perform whatever analysis we can on the data to decide whats actionable and what isnt. But when we get information that was the result of torture we should make sure its reported to public officials so that the torturers might be brought to justice.

You would also have to look at the particular transaction. Was our intelligence apparatus completely innocent, having the information just fall in their lap? Or were they in communication with the agency that did the torturing? Did we know it was happening? Did our request for information CAUSE it to happen or play a part in causing it?

The problem is I think theres a huge tempation for western intelligence agencies to step around their own laws, by using surrogates in other countries. And people that operate in secrecy NEVER follow the rules.

[dre]

The answer to the question is simple, every piece of info in regards to public safety is acted upon, regardless of source, just like the fire dept response to every call, every 911 call an officer responds...Why7 would this not be any different, because you disagree with the source, or how it was gathered, give me a break...it is the publics safety we are talking about and lives are at stake....

I by no means an advocate for torture, in the it's orginal sense of the word that is ...Today however like every thing else it has been liberalized to the piont that leaving a light on in a prisoners cell, 24 and 7 so they can be observed is considered torture, not allowing him to get a full 8 hours rest is considered torture, which could be why the word torture is being used in bland terms because today that is exactly the difination ....

Any that does not induce servere pain, or a fight or flight response...such as water boarding i don't advocate...

Leaving a light on, or limiting amount of sleep a prisoner gets by either loud music or what every means is a type of interogation tech...and when combined with a skilled interogator can and will produce reliable results but takes a long time to achieve....

Todays definations of torture have been so deluded that it is no longer black and white, and the definations only assist the bad guys into making false alligations, forcing our soldiers to create end rounds aound the problems.

For instance capture a combatant in a building, and you can not force him to search the building or show you any hidden traps or IED's, as it is a form of torture, mistreatment etc...

You can however force that individual to search his own car, ie open doors , trunks, start it shut it upand off, all done to intiate any IED or trap....

So there is clearly a blurring of the defination of what is torture and what is not...on the battle field we need to keep it simple or these laws will get broken daily....as some of them are....

induce servere pain

I would never make that the litmus test. Lots of forms of torture dont cause severe pain.

[M.Dancer]

I would never make that the litmus test. Lots of forms of torture dont cause severe pain.

Is making someone sad torture?

[Army Guy]

Name a few ?

[dre]

Is making someone sad torture?

Depends. I could rape your wife or child in front of you until you talk... without necessarily inducing "severe pain". Or I could sodomize you with a foreign object until you talked, which again might not induce severe pain depending on what that object was. Or I could sick vicious dogs on your nut-sack, and as long as I dont let them get close enough bite you it wouldnt induce "severe pain".

That definition is completely bogus. Torture NEVER has been a purely physical endeavor.

Edited September 13, 2010 by dre

[Army Guy]

I would never make that the litmus test. Lots of forms of torture dont cause severe pain.

That definition is completely bogus. Torture NEVER has been a purely physical endeavor.

I think if you use the my complete quote it would include all the examples you have come up with , while not inducing severe pain in you, "watching my wife would be for me a severe painful experence" and would also include a large fight or flight response....

Any that does not induce servere pain, or a fight or flight response...such as water boarding i don't advocate...

[M.Dancer]

That definition is completely bogus. Torture NEVER has been a purely physical endeavor.

Which means just about anything can be construed as torture...even detention.

[dre]

I think if you use the my complete quote it would include all the examples you have come up with , while not inducing severe pain in you, "watching my wife would be for me a severe painful experence" and would also include a large fight or flight response....

watching my wife would be for me a severe painful experence

Right... mental anguish. I assumed by "inducing pain" you meant real physical pain and my point was thats not the only kind of torture. Misunderstanding I guess.

[dre]

Which means just about anything can be construed as torture...even detention.

Yeah its a hard definition to nail down. Also theres lots of other techniques that are banned but dont meet some peoples definitions of torture.

This is the language used by the IRC for example.

inhuman, cruel, humiliating, and degrading treatment, outrages upon personal dignity and physical or moral coercion

[Argus]

Wow. What a simplistic question. Of course, it's to elicit incredibly simplistic and divisive debate.

What about a third option? That despite it being wrong, that it also never works, and there has never been a ticking clock type of situation where there has been an absolute necessity to obtain information.

Never works? You have some inner link to all the world's anti-terrorist and police operations? I'm sure it has worked innumerable times. It simply isn't spoken of very much.

let me suggest to you that there are unquestionably an awful lot of people who want to blow things up in the United States. How often has that happened in the last nine years? Why do you suppose that is? Good luck? Terrorists can't figure out how to get to the US? They're too nice?

[Argus]

Considering people under physical coercion during interrogation routinely say anything their captors want in order to make the situation stop, I don't see how any information could be viewed as any kind of reliable.

Pakistani intelligence catch a guy they knew was building a nuclear bomb. The plutonium and other stuff he is known to have gathered are gone. They torture him to find out what he did with them and he finally confesses he built a bomb and it's in a locker in Union Station in Toronto

You're suggesting that when Pakistani Intelligence contacts CSIS we should say "I'm sorry, but if you obtained this information without all due regard to the suspect's human rights we cannot, in good conscience, act upon it."

Have I got that about right? You don't go down to Union Station to see if there's a nuke there?

Edited September 13, 2010 by Argus