Ignore Terrorist Plots

[Argus]

The ends never justifies the means.

Drivel

[M.Dancer]

This is the language used by the IRC for example.

inhuman, cruel, humiliating, and degrading treatment, outrages upon personal dignity and physical or moral coercion

So that just about covers everything...being shackled in degrading...forced to poop in public is degrading and humiliating...made to listen to Celine Dion is an outrage....

[Peter F]

Hows about if the tortured source only knew some of the information about the absolute definate bomb. Say only that the device is in Montreal or Vancouver but doesnt know where. But he dies under overzealous torturers. But before dying he gives the name of someone he thinks may have that crucial location info and that name is a canadian citizen residing in Canada.

Should we torture the shit out of the named person?

[Keepitsimple]

Hows about if the tortured source only knew some of the information about the absolute definate bomb. Say only that the device is in Montreal or Vancouver but doesnt know where. But he dies under overzealous torturers. But before dying he gives the name of someone he thinks may have that crucial location info and that name is a canadian citizen residing in Canada.

Should we torture the shit out of the named person?

The answer is no....some may no agree but that's the law.....but some other parts of the world don't play so nice....and that's what this topic is about - do we act on information from those dubious sources, or not?

[Army Guy]

Hows about if the tortured source only knew some of the information about the absolute definate bomb. Say only that the device is in Montreal or Vancouver but doesnt know where. But he dies under overzealous torturers. But before dying he gives the name of someone he thinks may have that crucial location info and that name is a canadian citizen residing in Canada.

Should we torture the shit out of the named person?

Has'nt that already been played out on the seris 24....as unlikely as this situation is lets add alittle reality to it.....Lets just assume that we did not act on the info because we were all being good citizens with good moral fiber, champions of human rights, super heros of the west and protectors of the little guy..... ....The crude nuk device does go off, and evaporates a 25 block raduis of the downtown core of any large Canadian city, Heat, and blast damage destroyed another 50 block raduis , well over 200,000 dead, with triple that wounded...and 10 times that effected by radition piosoning....most of the serious wounded will die of their wounds as our ability to delivery medical aid has been over come by the sheer numbers....Cas numbers would be unlike anything we've seen todate...

Our abilty to respond in any matter has been overwhelmed, our police, fire fighters EMS,and military, all over come, even the US military would be over come in this situation as radition clouds drift towards their own borders....what you now have is mass uncontrolable panick which would quickly spread across vast areas of Canada as the masses of refugees flee the effected areas, with no real shelter, or food to provide them , social order will begin to break down...more will die in the violence...

SO lets add it up shall we, lets just say for agument sake we have done some investagation, after we recieved the info from our torture victim.....and there is a good proablity ,they do know something....

So we have a Canadian citizen who more than likely knows something but we are not sure, what we do know is that person has failed to do anything about it, failed to warn anyone or anything ....he has left those that will be effected to thier own fate....that means you and your family.....

So do we as a nation protect every right he has been given by our nation,laws, and treaties....knowing that this event would rock the very foundation of our nation...it would test even our world renouned GOOD WILL, and Canadian friendly nature.....or do we take a chance on preventing it all and hook his balls up to the nearest wall socket....

and lets just say for argument sake you and your family live just outside the blast raduis....

What is that you said, "which wire do i attach first" The red one.....But i get to ask the questions....Don't worry everyone will get a chance....

Mt piont is this for the most part we do try and live up to our good global standing...but there comes a time when you have to stuff the Mr nice guy in your pocket....

Edited September 14, 2010 by Army Guy

[Peter F]

...

Mt piont is this for the most part we do try and live up to our good global standing...but there comes a time when you have to stuff the Mr nice guy in your pocket....

I dunno Army Guy. When the state condones the torture of one individual for the greater good - it doesn't take very long for arena's to be filled up.

[Oleg Bach]

Is making someone sad torture?

No it is up to you to be happy..but making someone afraid and using that coercion to control is called terroizing..looks like wa are all under duress in those regards when it comes to surviving in this society...now we are all subtle torture victims..I remember when some agency tortured my younger brother - by illegally stealing his kids without a protection order - sticking the dad in a room to visit..the boys - while students and other observers watched the interaction through one way mirrors...They tortured the hell out of a good father and two fine boys that they drugged and commodified...so what did we do about it - we legally tortured them for 5 years in the courts...NOW they keep their distance..taking away 500 thousand bucks in defence money from the defendant sure was TORTURE FOR THEM.....

[Oleg Bach]

No it is up to you to be happy..but making someone afraid and using that coercion to control is called terroizing..looks like wa are all under duress in those regards when it comes to surviving in this society...now we are all subtle torture victims..I remember when some agency tortured my younger brother - by illegally stealing his kids without a protection order - sticking the dad in a room to visit..the boys - while students and other observers watched the interaction through one way mirrors...They tortured the hell out of a good father and two fine boys that they drugged and commodified...so what did we do about it - we legally tortured them for 5 years in the courts...NOW they keep their distance..taking away 500 thousand bucks in defence money from the defendant sure was TORTURE FOR THEM.....

My point is the only time torture is justifed is if someone tortures you...or the little ones - once you inflict harm on innocent childern and good people in general - then if I had my way I WILL MAKE YOU HURT...legally of course - as for military tormenting - to have some big shot sitting in an office some where giving orders to torture some unknown poor person in a far away land - who MIGHT harm you - is cowardice - Those that gave orders to water board ....should meet me in the back alley and have a drink together and a little talk...symbolically speaking of course...I would torture them with words and let them know who they really are as men - They would be pugging their ears and running for cover like screaming little girls.

[dre]

So that just about covers everything...being shackled in degrading...forced to poop in public is degrading and humiliating...made to listen to Celine Dion is an outrage....

Yup. Basically youre not supposed to abuse prisoners. If you signed the 1984 Convention against torture, then not only is torture unlawfull but host of other things that fall under the description of "ill treatment".

It actually makes good sense... the idea being that armed conflict wouldnt be about which side can abuse POW's until they turn over intelligence first.

[Peter F]

The answer is no....some may no agree but that's the law.....but some other parts of the world don't play so nice....and that's what this topic is about - do we act on information from those dubious sources, or not?

I was going to say that I have no problem on acting on such information....but on further thought I would be wrong if I did.

In your conundrum all is known, straitforward and simple. Torturing people tell us bomb is in such-and-such a place.

Do we go check to see if the bomb is there? Well sure. Of course we do.

If there is indeed a bomb, just like they said there was, do we attempt to disarm it? Well sure. Of course we do.

End of Story according to the conundrum. There is nothing else beyond, right?

So torturing the source is better than not torturing the source.

So I have accepted torture by the less squeemish as a 'lesser evil'.

Such a conclusion actually makes me ill.

In the particular scenario you described, where all is known - I guess I just have to be ill.

On the other hand. In order to not be ill, suppose I do not investigate the information because its derived from torture.

A bomb will go off and hundreds will be dead. End of story according to the conundrum.

The funny thing is I don't feel ill by ignorning the torture information.

Now why is that?

Perhaps I am insane. Could be....or maybe its because I believe that the acceptance of torture - even in an indirect way as per the conundrum, will eventually lead us to the Lubyanka.

And so I consider the acceptance of hundreds of dead through terrorist action to be better than accepting torture or anything to do with torture is in fact The Lesser Evil

There conundrum answered and vote made

Edited September 14, 2010 by Peter F

[Army Guy]

I dunno Army Guy. When the state condones the torture of one individual for the greater good - it doesn't take very long for arena's to be filled up.

We both know we can "what if" this situation to death, when you boil it down to the last grain, it comes down to what price are you willing to pay and what results are you expecting...... In this case the price is thousands of inocent people who also have rights and freedoms and expectations that their government is going to do everything it can to protect them....but that is the problem where do we draw the line in what we expect our government to do in protecting the majority, and everyone has different expectations of that....

Such a conclusion actually makes me ill.

In the particular scenario you described, where all is known - I guess I just have to be ill.

On the other hand. In order to not be ill, suppose I do not investigate the information because its derived from torture.

A bomb will go off and hundreds will be dead. End of story according to the conundrum.

The funny thing is I don't feel ill by ignorning the torture information.

Now why is that?

Perhaps I am insane. Could be....or maybe its because I believe that the acceptance of torture - even in an indirect way as per the conundrum, will eventually lead us to the Lubyanka.

And so I consider the acceptance of hundreds of dead through terrorist action to be better than accepting torture or anything to do with torture is in fact The Lesser Evil

There conundrum answered and vote made

Here is problem i have with your answer. The state asks us to accomplish alot of tasks that make us uncomfortable or forces us all to rethink our values and morals, in this case the state has asked you to extract information via torture, which we all know will casue this person some extreme pain....we know this to be wrong and goes again'st everything we have been taught what we hold near and dear to our hearts, which makes us who we are....So torture is bad....we spit on torture....

And yet, our state in times of war or during policing operations in our cities has charged people with there protection, have given them permision to take a life, police do it with a pistol, occasional a rifle, we percieve this to be tradgic but good, hand out accomindations, hold public cerimonies for bravery....we know taking another life is also bad, but in some circumstances it's good....

during war we kill with every known wpn we can get our hands on, from helemt and bayonet, to napalm to ICBM....kill those bastards, and the more the better , and larger the parade.....we except this actions as normal...appauld them...shit hand out medels.....but mention torture, people puke, convulse ....either way we are killing , causing severe pain, degrading , humilating....people....it's war and war is evil not just parts of it but the whole damn thing......

don't tell me they are different , because without war there would be no need to torture for info....don't tell me civilized people don't torture, becasue thats a crock, i can drop a load of naplam onto your family and and get a medal....but i can't ask a question while doing it....OK i seem a little jaded, it's true i am. I've seen to many conflicts, and the results they have....can we honstly say we are better people for not torturing, when the list of things we accomplish in war are much worse....

Today we as a nation demand an inquiry because a prisoner was roughed up during transport off the battle field....we demand an inquiry when a prisoner complains he was beaten, in his cell....and yet who demands an inquiry when 4 Canadian soldiers shoot a 6 year old boy on a bike with a bomb strapped to his chest....who demands an inquiry when a soldier disembowels an enemy boy of 12 or 13, with a bayonet in close quater combat....Calling in an arty strike on a village full of enemy combatants and civilians....Yes i get it.... actions of war , expected of a soldier.....i get it....but please explain to me the difference between these actions....and some one torturing to retrieve info......Why do we spit on one and throw a parade for the other....So really are we more civilized, do we have a higher sense of being than the bad guys.....do we deserve that higher sense of belief that i'd rather kill thousands than torure just one....

Sorry Peter did not mean to rant , just having a few issues, with this topic....

[Keepitsimple]

I was going to say that I have no problem on acting on such information....but on further thought I would be wrong if I did.

In your conundrum all is known, straitforward and simple. Torturing people tell us bomb is in such-and-such a place.

Do we go check to see if the bomb is there? Well sure. Of course we do.

If there is indeed a bomb, just like they said there was, do we attempt to disarm it? Well sure. Of course we do.

End of Story according to the conundrum. There is nothing else beyond, right?

So torturing the source is better than not torturing the source.

So I have accepted torture by the less squeemish as a 'lesser evil'.

Such a conclusion actually makes me ill.

In the particular scenario you described, where all is known - I guess I just have to be ill.

On the other hand. In order to not be ill, suppose I do not investigate the information because its derived from torture.

A bomb will go off and hundreds will be dead. End of story according to the conundrum.

The funny thing is I don't feel ill by ignorning the torture information.

Now why is that?

Perhaps I am insane. Could be....or maybe its because I believe that the acceptance of torture - even in an indirect way as per the conundrum, will eventually lead us to the Lubyanka.

And so I consider the acceptance of hundreds of dead through terrorist action to be better than accepting torture or anything to do with torture is in fact The Lesser Evil

There conundrum answered and vote made

You were right. You are insane. But you are also Canadian....and the Charter of Rights gives you the right to refuse treatment. If those hundreds of dead included your loved ones, I think your sanity would return. The conundrum is not meant to remove the "illness" that we might feel because we are forced to do something that we don't agree with - that is against our principles - or even sickens us......but there are circumstances where pure evil exists. Don't think for one moment that there are NOT elements in the world where if they COULD, they would kill untold thousands - if not millions of us. We will NEVER feel good about having to act on information obtained through some sort of abuse - or Lord help us....being a party to it....but there CAN come a time that our very society could be under attack.....and it sometimes seems that it might come sooner rather than later. The whole thing sickens me.....but I will not roll over and let some evil, murderous criminals/zeolots/madmen try to destroy the fabric of our country. The difference between US and THEM is that we can feel remorse - they cannot.

[Bonam]

Of course the information should be acted upon.

[Oleg Bach]

No such thing as a lesser evil. Degrees of good also do not exist.. It is either right or wrong..but we are in a world of relative moralism...especially in the west where our legalist will state that it is immoral but legal... time to seperate the dirt from the gold...we can not continue with a successful society if that society no longer has a rigid and accurate moral compass...but when we deam that a males bowels are equal to the reproductive organs of a female....and same sex marriage is legitimate...then we might as well torture and plunder....harm children and rob the weak and elderly... One does not harm children...nor harm adult children who were once the babes in a mothers arms..that adult child should not be tied to a chair an beaten becase some stupid power monger is to stupid and too skilless to negotiate peace with an advesary............................................................ Torture has always since time began been traditional...and only used by inept leaders.

[Peter F]

You were right. You are insane. ......but I will not roll over and let some evil, murderous criminals/zeolots/madmen try to destroy the fabric of our country. The difference between US and THEM is that we can feel remorse - they cannot.

Well, You'll have to do the nasty without my participation. I refuse to stoop to thier level. If its death or torture - I choose death.

[Army Guy]

Well, You'll have to do the nasty without my participation. I refuse to stoop to thier level. If its death or torture - I choose death.

And while i do agree that you as an individual have that right, and i appluad your conviction to stand up for what you believe in, even if it means your death ...i think that is where it stops....

I'm sure that the majority of the others that would be effected in this situation would have another opinion...i think they would agree with you that torture is bad...but in this case they would agree to have it done.

[Peter F]

I'm sure that the majority of the others that would be effected in this situation would have another opinion...i think they would agree with you that torture is bad...but in this case they would agree to have it done.

Of course. Others can hold whatever opinions please them.

[Argus]

Well, You'll have to do the nasty without my participation. I refuse to stoop to thier level. If its death or torture - I choose death.

I have no problem with that - as long as it's YOUR death. I have a big problem with it when it likely means someone else who did not make your noble choice.

[Peter F]

I have no problem with that - as long as it's YOUR death. I have a big problem with it when it likely means someone else who did not make your noble choice.

I agree with you 100%. My death.

Unfortunately, I am not sure how to arrange that in context of where the bomb would be if we have no idea where it is.

Edited September 17, 2010 by Peter F

[eyeball]

And while i do agree that you as an individual have that right, and i appluad your conviction to stand up for what you believe in, even if it means your death ...i think that is where it stops....

I'm sure that the majority of the others that would be effected in this situation would have another opinion...i think they would agree with you that torture is bad...but in this case they would agree to have it done.

Have it done, as in over and over again given how it paid off in this case? I'm sure you meant glad it had been done but this Freudian slip may suggest how really easy it would be to slip and fall down this precipitous slope.

[Shady]

Well, You'll have to do the nasty without my participation. I refuse to stoop to thier level.

We're not stooping to their level. We're trying to save lives. They're trying to destroy lives.

[Peter F]

We're not stooping to their level. We're trying to save lives. They're trying to destroy lives.

Torture = Terrorism, Shady. Our motives merely get us there.

[bloodyminded]

I would use waterboarding. For the information gathering of terrorist plots.

And you would similarly provide restitution to those whose family members were charged with torture for committing to the practice?

At any rate, simply saying "I would commit to the acts already perpetrated by the Powerful" is not thinking the matter through...it's servility to power.

I'm asking which types you would accept--and why. Why these, and not others.

[bloodyminded]

Pakistani intelligence catch a guy they knew was building a nuclear bomb. The plutonium and other stuff he is known to have gathered are gone. They torture him to find out what he did with them and he finally confesses he built a bomb and it's in a locker in Union Station in Toronto

You're suggesting that when Pakistani Intelligence contacts CSIS we should say "I'm sorry, but if you obtained this information without all due regard to the suspect's human rights we cannot, in good conscience, act upon it."

Have I got that about right? You don't go down to Union Station to see if there's a nuke there?

Ah, the ticking bomb scenario.

so ok...your stance is that it is acceptable in the case of a ticking bomb scenario...but never any time else?

In other words, what has already and always been the case is acceptable...but any other measures of torture are unacceptable.

Fair enough.

[bloodyminded]

I dunno Army Guy. When the state condones the torture of one individual for the greater good - it doesn't take very long for arena's to be filled up.

Exactly so. Few brutal tryrannical torturers rub their hands in glee late at night fantasizing of torture for its own sake. There could be a few, but usually it is for "the greater good."

The reasons always seem justified. And then expand.

Edited September 18, 2010 by bloodyminded