Gun Control

[PIK]

There was a letter to the editor that a lady who said her daughter was killed in montreal school shooting , she said we need the registry so people like hime can not buy ''these ''types of guns, well my heart goes out to this women for her loss, but she has no idea what she is talking about, and it is embarressing that people are using these poor mothers and telling them things that is totally wrong and these poor women make a fool out of themselves repeating that crap that is fed to them. But hey nothing better then a upset mother who lost a child to get your point across even if it is wrong.

[capricorn]

The registry was already massively confused and massively screwed up. It was poorly designed. The information is not properly set up, and it wasn't designed properly for updates. The information is incomplete and unreliable and only a moron would rely on it.

<humour on>

Cop Charlie and cop Stanley spot Joe the Carpenter driving while holding a cell phone to his ear.

Cop Charlie: That guy's breaking the law.

Cop Stanley: Ten four

Cop Charlie: Can't let him get away.

Cop Stanley: Ten four

(Cop Charlie signals Joe the Carpenter who cooperates by coming to a full stop.)

Cop Charlie: I'll run his plates to see what we're dealing with here. (pause) Holy crap the registry tells me this dude is in possession of a Makita Drill. And you know what Stanley? I saw it. It's sitting right there in plain view on his back seat.

Cop Stanley: Come on Charlie, a drill is not a gun.

Cop Charlie: I tell you it's registered as a weapon the registry tells me I must fear. What if he attacks us with it?

(unbeknown to the cops, Joe had registered his Makita Drill as a joke, and had received confirmation from the firearms registry that the drill was successfully registered)

Cop Stanley writes a cell phone warning to Joe the Carpenter and passes it over through the car's open window.

Cop Stanley: Sir, this a warning. Using a hand held cellphone while driving is illegal. Next time, it'll be a $250.00 fine. O.K.?

Joe the Carpenter: Gotcha officer. (drives away)

Cop Charlie: Phew, that was a close one...hey, there's a Tim Horton...let's pull in.

<humour off>

[punked]

The funny thing is those who have MORE education are the ones who support this. I have two degrees and I think it is a joke and any educated individual who actually looked into would know it is a joke to. The problem is this is something they don't know about, they have never held a gun or went hunting. They aren't educated about this but because they are educated they think they know better. Well they don't. The Long gun registry costs between 4-10 million a year. That means over 10 year we will save between 40-100 million over 20 years it is 80-200 million, you can hire a lot of teachers with that money. Scrap it, it isn't gun control, it doesn't stop anyone from anything.

[Alta4ever]

The funny thing is those who have MORE education are the ones who support this. I have two degrees and I think it is a joke and any educated individual who actually looked into would know it is a joke to. The problem is this is something they don't know about, they have never held a gun or went hunting. They aren't educated about this but because they are educated they think they know better. Well they don't. The Long gun registry costs between 4-10 million a year. That means over 10 year we will save between 40-100 million over 20 years it is 80-200 million, you can hire a lot of teachers with that money. Scrap it, it isn't gun control, it doesn't stop anyone from anything.

WOW!!!!

[Sir Bandelot]

The funny thing is those who have MORE education are the ones who support this. I have two degrees and I think it is a joke and any educated individual who actually looked into would know it is a joke to. The problem is this is something they don't know about, they have never held a gun or went hunting. They aren't educated about this but because they are educated they think they know better. Well they don't. The Long gun registry costs between 4-10 million a year. That means over 10 year we will save between 40-100 million over 20 years it is 80-200 million, you can hire a lot of teachers with that money. Scrap it, it isn't gun control, it doesn't stop anyone from anything.

I'm no expert in these matters, unlike many hear who clame to be experts in all subjest. I just want our cops to have the best tools available for them to feel safe and good. Now it seems to me, as indicated in the article I posted that the RCMP are in support of the registry, and it has helped them before so I think it should countinue.

If it's too expensive, that's another problem and it should be fixed. They should find out where the money is going and why. Follow the money, you'll find corrupt politicians I'm sure. On the other hand if money is what we want to save, pretty sure we can find lots of things that are a huge waste of Canadian tax dollers, and provide far less benefit that said gin registrey

[Sir Bandelot]

The Left always like to insinuate some vast conspiracy among corporate interests to thwart their well-intentioned nonsense, but in reality it's normally just that most of the ideas which come out of the Left, and most of their cherished concepts, are so much dog drool.

Oh, left left left. Bzzzz

That's ok Tommy Hilfinger Boy, you keep snuglling up to the ones who will come get your ass, when the time comes. At least the other whores got paid!

[Archanfel]

My take is if you are against gun control, you should be against substance control. And vice versa. Yet most people seems to favor one, but not the other.

[punked]

I'm no expert in these matters, unlike many hear who clame to be experts in all subjest. I just want our cops to have the best tools available for them to feel safe and good. Now it seems to me, as indicated in the article I posted that the RCMP are in support of the registry, and it has helped them before so I think it should countinue.

If it's too expensive, that's another problem and it should be fixed. They should find out where the money is going and why. Follow the money, you'll find corrupt politicians I'm sure. On the other hand if money is what we want to save, pretty sure we can find lots of things that are a huge waste of Canadian tax dollers, and provide far less benefit that said gin registrey

The 30-40 chiefs that are for it don't get to speak for the rest of the RCMP. Fact is most of those on the front lines are not for it, the other fact is that MORE police have been killed from the time this registry came to being by long guns NOT less. I believe something like 40% of the officer deaths by long guns happen with those that are registered. This wont help keep our police safe the ONLY thing the registry can do is help the police seize weapons of people convicted of crimes AND that happened before the registry because ALL people who registry their guns ALREADY have a license so the police know they have a gun.

It is an awful lot to pay to help the police seize weapons they were going to get anyway. This is the problem Liberals keep saying "it keeps us safe" then when asked how they can't tell us. Give us a real reason and maybe the MAJORITY of Canadians wouldn't be against it.

Edited September 1, 2010 by punked

[Topaz]

Why would the police chiefs and the RCMP say its worth having if it wasn't?

[punked]

Why would the police chiefs and the RCMP say its worth having if it wasn't?

I don't know did you read the report because you would think in a report that says they want it they would justify why. They don't all they say is "The public is to dumb to understand why,". Seriously don't tell me it is misunderstood and that I am an idiot tell my why it is good. If it is good tell me, I read all the pages of that stupid report and there was no reasoning.

I mean I get it every piece of info the police have on you is better for them but we are going to spend 40 million at least over the next 10 years for that? We could set up a tip line that is going to lead to more with that money if we wanted to. It is a waste of money period. I doesn't save lives, it does nothing for gun control, it doesn't stop domestic violence and there is better ways to spend that money on just causes that would do all those things. WE ARE NOT GETTING OUR MONIES WORTH.

Remember the police were the "enemy of the left" not more then 3 months ago at the G-20 it was all "don't give them more power, don't give them more info, don't let them know who we are". Now that that the left wants this (ps I am as left as they come but I am not stupid) the police are all of a sudden experts on this? Now that the police will be doing this to gun owners and not protesters it is all good? That is crazy. I stand by what I believe I don't change just because it is a different group of people who they want information from.

[punked]

WOW!!!!

Alta I have never thought people in Toronto should be able to tell those who live in Newfoundland how to live. That is what this is, it is people in big cities (where hand guns are a problem) thinking all guns are the same. They don't care how this will harm the farmer or hunter, they don't know anyone who hunts for their food, they wont have to pay for it, they wont have to go to jail because the Long gun registry doesn't recognize the rural route, private road they live on so they don't care. I do. I live in a city but I shouldn't be allowed to tell those who don't how to live, just as they should not be allowed to tell me how to live.

[waldo]

The Long gun registry costs between 4-10 million a year. That means over 10 year we will save between 40-100 million over 20 years it is 80-200 million, you can hire a lot of teachers with that money. Scrap it, it isn't gun control, it doesn't stop anyone from anything.

WOW!!!!

no biggee Altaboy... punked is just setting up for the anticipated "principled" NDP 'killing of the registry', in spite of his boy Jack personally coming out in favour of the gun registry.

hey punked, operating costs for the gun registry were $4.1 million last year... what's with this 4-to-10 million shinola you're peddling?

Gun Registry Efficient: Rcmp Audit

An internal RCMP audit concludes the Canadian Firearms Program is operating effectively, efficiently and accountably, and the report makes no mention of massive cost overruns and bungling that plagued the contentious federal gun registry before the national police force assumed management of it.

The audit, posted on the RCMP website, is one of two favourable reports on the firearms program that the Mounties completed this year.

The second report is slated for release next week, just as debate on the future of the federal gun registry heats up in advance of a Sept. 22 vote in the House of Commons on whether the registration of long guns should be scrapped. The requirement to register handguns will remain.

[waldo]

Alta I have never thought people in Toronto should be able to tell those who live in Newfoundland how to live. That is what this is, it is people in big cities (where hand guns are a problem) thinking all guns are the same. They don't care how this will harm the farmer or hunter, they don't know anyone who hunts for their food, they wont have to pay for it, they wont have to go to jail because the Long gun registry doesn't recognize the rural route, private road they live on so they don't care. I do. I live in a city but I shouldn't be allowed to tell those who don't how to live, just as they should not be allowed to tell me how to live.

but, but, but... punked... your boy Jack's private members bill will take care of all your concerns. Indications are Jack's bill will parallel many of the revisions Liberals have been suggesting in recent months. Of course, Jack's trumped up save-face bill will never see the light of day - right?

[punked]

no biggee Altaboy... punked is just setting up for the anticipated "principled" NDP 'killing of the registry', in spite of his boy Jack personally coming out in favour of the gun registry.

hey punked, operating costs for the gun registry were $4.1 million last year... what's with this 4-to-10 million shinola you're peddling?

Gun Registry Efficient: Rcmp Audit

BUT WHAT DOES IT DO! 4 MILLION FOR NOTHING IS STILL CRAPPY!

Edited September 2, 2010 by punked

[punked]

but, but, but... punked... your boy Jack's private members bill will take care of all your concerns. Indications are Jack's bill will parallel many of the revisions Liberals have been suggesting in recent months. Of course, Jack's trumped up save-face bill will never see the light of day - right?

No it wont because fix the problem that this thing is 4 million for nothing. Jack is wrong on this one.

[waldo]

BUT WHAT DOES IT DO! 4 MILLION FOR NOTHING IS STILL CRAPPY!

that's certainly not the opinion of the RCMP and police associations... is it? But really, c'mon punked... why not get behind your leader Jack's bill (intended to deal with your stated concerns)... why come out in favour of dismantling it?

[waldo]

No it wont because fix the problem that this thing is 4 million for nothing. Jack is wrong on this one.

ha! Yes, of course... that's the (attempted) save face strategy being deployed in recent days. The NDP kill the registry while hyping Jacks bill and his personal support to keep the registry... while at the same time saying Jack's wrong. Can we say NDP hypocrites?

[punked]

that's certainly not the opinion of the RCMP and police associations... is it? But really, c'mon punked... why not get behind your leader Jack's bill (intended to deal with your stated concerns)... why come out in favour of dismantling it?

OK maybe you could call them and they can explain to you what it does. I have yet to meet a Liberal or NDP supporter who can tell me what this thing does.

Edited September 2, 2010 by punked

[punked]

ha! Yes, of course... that's the (attempted) save face strategy being deployed in recent days. The NDP kill the registry while hyping Jacks bill and his personal support to keep the registry... while at the same time saying Jack's wrong. Can we say NDP hypocrites?

Ummm I don't know if you have ever been a part of a political party be we disagree on a lot of stuff. Some of that stuff we say "you can have your own opinion and I will have mine," some we vote to make a part of the party which means "this is the parties position this is very important to us." This issue isn't a party position and everyone is allowed to have their own opinion. I come by mine honestly and I think if you look at the two gun registry threads I started over the past two years you will find mine has been consistent. It is stupid it costs 4-10 million a year and that money is wasted on this terrible program.

[eyeball]

Give me a break, eyeball! I'm the Libertarian guy, remember? Time after time I've come out AGAINST Prohibition-style laws!!!

Sorry, I had the impression you'd still be voting for the Conservatives anyway's. My mistake.

If you're gonna prop me up and treat me like some "spokesman for the right" then I reserve the right to do the same to you, in a similar manner!

I frankly don't care what some right wing folks say or believe. I care only about what I believe and certainly not some caricature of my beliefs that someone like YOU happens to paint!

Are we actually talking here or are you just preaching with your posts to the thin air in general?

No, I'm truly mystified how anyone who believes the state should not regulate and criminalize individual morality or behaviour could vote for anyone who would do the exact opposite. I guess I just assumed people would hold that to be far too fundamental a principle to breach. I mean, I sure as hell wouldn't vote for anyone who proposed to do that even if they promised to do something like, give B.C. control over the management of it's fisheries.

[maple_leafs182]

Hey, gun regulation is suppose to make our streets safer. That's the justification or reason we have it right?

Lets legalize drugs and prostitution, lets take money away from the gangs. I think this would make our streets safer. Instead of trying to disarm the 'bad' people, lets bankrupt them.

[eyeball]

Personally I think all this hoopla is just encouraging more people to aquire weapons...

No kidding. If the CPC keeps taking Canada in the direction we're going we may have to take it back by force.

[capricorn]

If the CPC keeps taking Canada in the direction we're going we may have to take it back by force.

Wait til October then we can call it October Crisis 2.

[eyeball]

Mentally unstable people would not be able to acquire a license to purchase guns in the first place.

Mental instability can strike anyone any time, sometimes even after they've acquired a license to purchase guns.

I actually hope the gun registry is scrapped and replaced with proper gun control. I'd rather see the vast majority of guns being stored in registered armoury's until needed i.e. for hunting season or target shooting (at a registered range). I can appreciate cases in which the odd rancher, farmer or person who needs protection from grizzlies etc in wilderness areas might need a special permit to keep guns on hand, but that's about it.

[Visionseeker]

Costs aside, the big argument from those who favour the registry is that it helps prevent crime, but so far I have not seen any evidence presented to that, has anyone hear seen evidence or proof that the registry will, or has prevented a crime ?

This is the single most dishonest argument people pull-out in arguing that the registry should be junked: "Show me proof of the crimes it has prevented!!!"

Well answer me this, where are the credible statistics for individual acts of prevented crime housed?

Answer: nowhere. Because they simply don't exist.

If they did, they would record every instance where a friend prevented a friend from driving drunk; or incidents where a bank robber was thwarted in his aims by the presence of a squad car outside the bank he was casing; or the drugging and sexual assault that was thwarted because a woman brought her drink with her to the bathroom - preventing her aspiring assailant from spiking her drink.

How much crime is prevented by the registry is difficult to ascertain. But the reality is that it does serve an important intervention tool in violent domestic situations, has helped to crack burglary networks and has enabled snitch networking by getting suspects in possession of stolen weapons to offer bigger fish in the hopes of mitigating their own misfortune.

Anecdotally, I can offer you the following:

Some years ago, a woman in Perth Ont. was murdered by her estranged husband in a murder suicide involving a shotgun. The husband's weapons had been seized months before as a result of charges for domestic assault and uttering threats. The gun used in the murder was provided by a friend whom the murderer convinced was to be used for a hunting trip.

5 years ago I was at a social function where I happened to learn that the man I was conversing with was a hunter from Perth. I asked him what he would do if a friend asked to borrow one of his guns and he said (roughly paraphrasing) "Happens all the time. I tell them that I'll give the OPP a call first and if they're OK with it, I'm OK with it." In other words, if the OPP hasn't seized his friend's registered guns, he's a legal gun owner and can borrow the weapon. I asked him if he ever faced an objection to his approach and he said that one guy told him "never mind, I'll ask someone else." He called the OPP anyways and the guy was arrested for violating a weapons prohibition order.

The registry prevents and helps solve crime. That much I know. Whether it is worth it or not is perhaps a matter for debate, but how many lives must be saved or crimes solved to warrant the $4 million price tag? You tell me.

Edited September 2, 2010 by Visionseeker