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Burn a Qu'ran Day.


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I think a community centre (it's not even really a mosque) is the definition of low key. It's irrational, no matter how you slice it.

I love how yesterday it was ...

The fact that they were Muslims and the fact that no one wants a simple mosque a couple blocks away insinuates all muslims were responsible and there is absolutely no way you can deny that.

..."a simple mosque", but today ...

I think a community centre (it's not even really a mosque) is the definition of low key. It's irrational, no matter how you slice it.

...it's not a mosque at all! Perhaps it is some sort of magic convert-o-mosque, which transforms into either a mosque or community center depending on which is more convenient for the argument you wish to make at the time. Kind of like the Transformers, perhaps.

At any rate, it sure isn't "a simple mosque". Here's their description of what will be included:

Park51 will grow into a world-class community center, planned to include the following facilities:

* outstanding recreation spaces and fitness facilities (swimming pool, gym, basketball court)

* a 500-seat auditorium

* a restaurant and culinary school

* cultural amenities including exhibitions

* education programs

* a library, reading room and art studios

* childcare services

* a mosque, intended to be run separately from Park51 but open to and accessible to all members, visitors and our New York community

* a September 11th memorial and quiet contemplation space, open to all

The scale of the project and its ambitious objectives make your attempt to describe this 13 story, $100 million project as "low key" laughable. It's not a simple community center any more than it's a simple mosque.

-k

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Ah, so that's helpful. You're accusing it of being a front. Tell me, a front for what? Let's have you on the record with this.

If you don't learn from history, you'rr doomed to repeat it. I've heard this story before. :rolleyes:

Influential American Muslims Temper Their Tone

Imam Anwar Al-Awlaki, spiritual leader at the Dar al-Hijra mosque in Virginia, one of the nation's largest, which draws about 3,000 worshipers for communal prayers each Friday, said: ''In the past we were oblivious. We didn't really care much because we never expected things to happen. Now I think things are different. What we might have tolerated in the past, we won't tolerate any more.''

Mr. Al-Awlaki, who at 30 is held up as a new generation of Muslim leader capable of merging East and West: born in New Mexico to parents from Yemen, who studied Islam in Yemen and civil engineering at Colorado State University.

...

many mosque leaders who draw large numbers each week for Friday prayers and sermons, including Mr. Al-Awlaki, in Falls Church, Va., and Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, spiritual leader of the Al-Farah mosque in Lower Manhattan and founder of the American Sufi Muslim Association.

NYT

For those of you keeping score at home, Al-Awlaki, of whom The New York Times praised as a moderate and a new generation of Muslim leaders, is now the leader of Al-Qaeda in Yemen.

Has this situation changed at all over the last several years? Nope.

FBI Searches for Others After Radical Mosque Raid

The leader of an Islamic mosque in Detroit, Mich., was shot and killed during an FBI raid Wednesday -- now the search is on for others involved.

Luqman Ameen Abdullah told his followers that a revolution on American soil could not succeed without violence. He said he was willing to fight the FBI, even if it meant death, to accomplish that goal.

CBN

If the Imam of the proposed mosque near Ground Zero is truely a moderate. He'll do the right thing, and move the mosque to a different location within the city. If he's truely a moderate. Actions speak louder than words. We've all heard the "he's a moderate" words before.

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"Burn-a-Koran" day? This guy's a lightweight. Why not "Burn-a-Mosque" Day:

http://jacksonville.com/news/crime/2010-05-12/story/pipe-bomb-used-jacksonville-mosque-blast

or "Down-a-Muzzie" Day:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jul/07/german-trial-hijab-murder-egypt

How about we call for a ban on the construction of anything of Western origin near areas where Muslims are murdered and mosques burned? Why the double-standard? When Muslims kill, all Muslims should be sensitive. When Muslims are killed, the world is silent.

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Or maybe we could propose that German community centres not be allowed to be built near moques because a German murdered a Muslim woman. Or maybe we could say that because Americans have firebombed mosques and murdered Muslims and Sikhs post 9/11 that American heritage buildings no longer be allowed to be built near mosques?

Again, why the double standard?

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Or maybe we could propose that German community centres not be allowed to be built near moques because a German murdered a Muslim woman. Or maybe we could say that because Americans have firebombed mosques and murdered Muslims and Sikhs post 9/11 that American heritage buildings no longer be allowed to be built near mosques?

Again, why the double standard?

Because most individual murders or acts of vandalism has symbolic significance recognized only by those involved. The WTC site has symbolic significance recognized by everyone in the world.

-k

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Guest American Woman

Or maybe we could propose that German community centres not be allowed to be built near moques because a German murdered a Muslim woman. Or maybe we could say that because Americans have firebombed mosques and murdered Muslims and Sikhs post 9/11 that American heritage buildings no longer be allowed to be built near mosques?

Again, why the double standard?

It's already been explained why those attempts at comparisons fail.

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Guest American Woman

I love how yesterday it was ...

..."a simple mosque", but today ...

...it's not a mosque at all! Perhaps it is some sort of magic convert-o-mosque, which transforms into either a mosque or community center depending on which is more convenient for the argument you wish to make at the time. Kind of like the Transformers, perhaps.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

It's not a "simple" anything, and anyone who claims that it is obviously is unaware of what the project heads themselves have said.

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WTC site has symbolic significance recognized by everyone in the world.

-k

Obviously, or it would not have led to so many firebombings and beatings across the Western world since 9/11. Maybe it's time to redefine the symbol, not as one of Muslim aggression, but one of terrorist aggression, a site reminding us of how hate, regardless of the source, must be countered. As long as it erroneously remains a symbol of Muslim aggression, then these attacks will continue. free speech is fine, but not when it can encourage weak minds to act on that speech with potentially lethal results.

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I could add that the protests have a worldwide symbolic effect too: that all Muslims are responsible for 9/11. No, I realize you don't blame them, but they're somehow linked in your mind by a shared religion. What are/were US servicemen fighting for in Iraq and Afghanistan again?

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Obviously, or it would not have led to so many firebombings and beatings across the Western world since 9/11.

Once again, it actually hasn't led to very many firebombings and beatings across the Western world. And how you know these incidents are because of 9/11 is still a mystery. As if the Madrid train bombings, and the London bus bombings, or the assassination of Theo Van Gogh wouldn't lead to any European backlash. :rolleyes:

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It doesn't presuppose that at all. It just respects that fact that thousands of people did die at the hands of Muslims that day. That's undeniable. Just because it wasn't "all" Muslims doesn't mean that people aren't sensitive to the fact that it was Muslims. We remember the clips of some Muslims dancing in the streets on 9-11, so it's not a stretch to imagine some Muslims seeing this as another victory, and helping to finance it.

Muslims are angry that the attacks happened. As I already pointed out, I've quoted other Muslims in regards to their feelings about this mosque; Muslims who feel exactly the way I and many others do.

Muslims can honor the people who died there without a mosque on that property; that isn't any more necessary for them to honor the people who died there than a church or synagogue or temple is necessary for people of those faiths to honor the dead.

Again, not letting them have this site isn't really part of this issue as most people totally respect their right.

And if you ask me, and the majority of New Yorkers and Americans, including many Muslims, not moving the project to another site will do the opposite of the stated intention of the people in charge of this project. It's already evident that it's creating hard feelings; that it's upsetting too many people. Rather than improving relations between Muslims and non-Muslims, it seems to be pushing those relations further back. It's doing the opposite of the stated intention, and I think that alone would be reason enough for those in charge of the project to want to build it elsewhere -- if building bridges really is their intention. That one act on the part of Muslims would do more to build good will than any other that I can think of post 9-11.

So it's not a matter of denying them the mosque; it's a matter of believing they should choose to build elsewhere. That they should be empathetic and sensitive to those whose lives were changed forever on 9-11.

So it's not a matter of denying them the mosque; it's a matter of believing they should choose to build elsewhere. That they should be empathetic and sensitive to those whose lives were changed forever on 9-11.

Gotcha... so burning holy books in a deliberate attempt to provoke people is ok... but people who want to build an islamic community center should "be empathic and sensitive", so that they dont upset and offend people.

What a pile of goat feces. Pure simple minded hypocracy and intellectual dishonesty.

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Gotcha... so burning holy books in a deliberate attempt to provoke people is ok... but people who want to build an islamic community center should "be empathic and sensitive", so that they dont upset and offend people.

What a pile of goat feces. Pure simple minded hypocracy and intellectual dishonesty.

And let's not forget bigotry.

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Guest American Woman

And let's not forget bigotry.

Get a grip. Bigotry is being against all of Islam. It's being against all Mosques. It's thinking they don't have a right to build the Mosque. It's thinking they don't have a right to build mosques anywhere in the U.S. or to practice their religion. It's thinking they are all murderers. It's thinking they are all one and the same.

ONE mosque. For the reasons stated over and over and over and over ....................... again.

The book burnings aren't taking place on property where Christians have murdered Muslims. Try. Really TRY to see the difference. No murders were involved. No deaths at all. It's a freakin' book. That's it. That's the extent of the whole deal. For one night. And I don't care if they burn the Bible, either. Or the American flag. There is nothing more than a symbol involved in all of those burnings, while there is a bit more than a symbol involved in the issues surrounding this ONE mosque. In this ONE location. On property damaged by other Muslims during a massacre.

If you can't see the difference and can do nothing better than come back with more cries of "bigot!" you are the one with the problem. Especially since there are a lot of Muslims who feel the same way!

Edited by American Woman
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Guest American Woman

No I'm not. In all my future posts I will be sure to add "I exclude American Woman from this statement..." in order to save time.

Or you could respond to what I have to say when you quote my post. How's that for an idea?

:D

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Get a grip. Bigotry is being against all of Islam. It's being against all Mosques. It's thinking they don't have a right to build the Mosque. It's thinking they don't have a right to build mosques anywhere in the U.S. or to practice their religion. It's thinking they are all murderers. It's thinking they are all one and the same.

ONE mosque. For the reasons stated over and over and over and over ....................... again.

The book burnings aren't taking place on property where Christians have murdered Muslims. Try. Really TRY to see the difference. No murders were involved. No deaths at all. It's a freakin' book. That's it. That's the extent of the whole deal. For one night. And I don't care if they burn the Bible, either. Or the American flag. There is nothing more than a symbol involved in all of those burnings, while there is a bit more than a symbol involved in the issues surrounding this ONE mosque. In this ONE location. On property damaged by other Muslims during a massacre.

If you can't see the difference and can do nothing better than come back with more cries of "bigot!" you are the one with the problem. Especially since there are a lot of Muslims who feel the same way!

The book burnings aren't taking place on property where Christians have murdered Muslims. Try. Really TRY to see the difference. No murders were involved. No deaths at all. It's a freakin' book. That's it. That's the extent of the whole deal. For one night. And I don't care if they burn the Bible, either. Or the American flag. There is nothing more than a symbol involved in all of those burnings, while there is a bit more than a symbol involved in the issues surrounding this ONE mosque. In this ONE location. On property damaged by other Muslims during a massacre.

Whether or not they are "just books" is besides the point. Burning someones holy book in an act of deliberate provocation is extremely hurtfull and offensive to some people of faith.

Your whole pathetic schtick here is that muslims should have "empathy" and choose not to offend the sensibilities of people against this mosque. But when the role is reversed suddeny its ok to do things that are highly offensive to other people.

Its really nothing more than naked hypocracy. Why should muslims give a shit about your feelings and your tiresome sanctimonious WHINING when you refuse to give a shit about theirs?

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http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jul/07/german-trial-hijab-murder-egypt

How about we call for a ban on the construction of anything of Western origin near areas where Muslims are murdered and mosques burned? Why the double-standard? When Muslims kill, all Muslims should be sensitive. When Muslims are killed, the world is silent.

OMG what a tragedy. I think this shows why it's important to try and stop the messages of intolerance, coming from both muslims and westerners. It's one thing to say, we have the right to free speech and we want to openly display our contempt for muslims, for what "they" did on Sept. 11. But this story shows the road we are on.

My view is, this debate is not between westerners versus muslims, or about the right to free speech. Both sides muslim and western abuse their right to free speech, in order to espouse hatred and anger for each other. This debate is between moderate people who want to create a civil society, everywhere, and intolerant ones who are motivated by their hate.

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OMG what a tragedy. I think this shows why it's important to try and stop the messages of intolerance, coming from both muslims and westerners. It's one thing to say, we have the right to free speech and we want to openly display our contempt for muslims, for what "they" did on Sept. 11. But this story shows the road we are on.

My view is, this debate is not between westerners versus muslims, or about the right to free speech. Both sides muslim and western abuse their right to free speech, in order to espouse hatred and anger for each other. This debate is between moderate people who want to create a civil society, everywhere, and intolerant ones who are motivated by their hate.

I fully agree. Now we have Egyptians of the same ilk as the protesters in NYC calling Germany racist, etc. In fact, I'm sure they're having a parallel debate right now, with some Egyptians standing up and insisting that they must not paint all Germans with the same brush, and others insisting some kind of punitive action against not just the one murderer, but Germany itself, be it via some kind of economic or diplomatic response from Egypt. The mind set in each camp would of course parallel the exact same mindset here.

Edited by Machjo
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Whether or not they are "just books" is besides the point. Burning someones holy book in an act of deliberate provocation is extremely hurtfull and offensive to some people of faith.

Your whole pathetic schtick here is that muslims should have "empathy" and choose not to offend the sensibilities of people against this mosque. But when the role is reversed suddeny its ok to do things that are highly offensive to other people.

Its really nothing more than naked hypocracy. Why should muslims give a shit about your feelings and your tiresome sanctimonious WHINING when you refuse to give a shit about theirs?

Oh but you don't get it. If they can offend all Muslims enough via their book burning campaign, maybe those Muslims will suddenly see the light that this is not about hating Muslims and so suddenly start a petition to move the Mosque elsewhere. There is nothing a Muslim would want more than to stand shoulder to shoulder with a protester who holds him, well, not responsible for those acts on 9/11 but, ya know, they share the same religion.

It kind of reminds me of this kind welcome mat:

I love her comment about how she liked the neighbors until she found out they were Muslim. But hey, nothing personal. :rolleyes:

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