Arab guilty of rape after consensual sex with Jew

[Guest American Woman]

I haven't seen any polls yet, but it would make sense that if over 50% of Israelis thought that a marriage between a Jew and and Arab was national treason than a large chunk of the population would feel that this verdict is just.

Have you seen the poll? Because I don't generally look at an article about poll results and draw conclusions. I, for one, wonder if it's marriage between a Jew and a non-Jew that they are against. I'm guessing if the Arab were a Jew, the question would have different results.

And come on. In light of the conflict that's going on, is it really "racist" for Jews to "fear" Arabs?

And judging from the columns and opinions on the more populist Israeli papers, it seems that this issue has split the population along familiar lines (liberal Israelis in one camp, religious and neo-con Israelis in the other).

Perhaps you should broaden your media outlets. I've read many articles, and the general consensus amoung Israelis is not so different from the rest of the world. Furthermore, every country has religious and neo-cons, but most of the population doesn't fit into either category, and I can't believe that Israel would be any different.

Also keep in mind that same poll about intermarriage found 75% of Israelis were opposed to living in the same apartment building as an Arab, which of course is significant when you consider Israel's policy of property rights when it comes to non-Jews, and you look at the ghettos that most Arabs live in.

I think it's also significant when you consider that it's "Arabs" who are blowing Israelis up.

There clearly are significant problems within Israel of rampant discrimination, it might be better than in Syria, but I'm not one for setting standards low, especially when it comes to a nation that loves to flout it's "democratic values" and "liberalism" and which is Canada's closest ally next to the US. Israel needs to be held to a higher standard.

That "higher standards" line is beginning to be tiring. They aren't obligated to please the rest of the world by taking what is seen as the 'higher road' at the expense of their safety/existence. They have every right to put themselves and their safety first, same as every other nation does. You honestly think Canada considers 'taking the high road' before it considers what the government perceives as best for Canada?

Actually, the rise of religious fundamentalists in Israel is well-documented by many sources, including a large number of the top Israeli political analysts and journalists of Jewish background. This is not about some sort of smear campaign, it's about many people who care deeply about Israel who see a trend which threatens to destroy the democratic values of the state.

And this one conviction has nothing to do with any of that. It's but a passing blimp in Israel's democratic values and is no more an indication of a decline in that area than one moronic conviction in the Canadian courts is evidence of a decline in Canada's democratic values.

Even my 90 year old Zaida sees this when he reads his daily mashup of Israeli papers - every time I see him he has a new story about those "zealots"

I'm sorry, but that's not proof on anything.

This is pretty much old news for anyone who closely follows Israel - it started years ago when fundamentalists started taking over municipal seats, and now has gone up the chain and they've become a key part of Bibi's government.

I'd appreciate it if you'd define "years ago" and elaborate as to what it is they've done.

Edited July 23, 2010 by American Woman

[bud]

lol @ american woman trying to justify a racist state.

50% think it's TREASON to marry an arab! move over aryan nation!

[Guest American Woman]

Poor bud can't read, or perhaps can read, but lacks comprehension skills.

This survey means nothing without more information. There were 500 participants, and that's all we know. What were their ages? How do they describe themselves-- moderates, fundamentalists? Again, how did the questions read? And did they say they strongly believed this way, somewhat believed this way? Somewhat felt this way? Or were they given no choice in that regard? Did the participants represent a true cross section of Israelis? Was the question in regards to "Arabs" or "Muslims?" It's not unusual for older generation Jewish parents to think their kids should marry within the Jewish religion, so was it this generation that was questioned, or the generation yet to marry? And does their desire to marry within the Jewish religion make them "racist?"

But at least they can marry outside their religion:

It is permissible for a Muslim man to marry a non-Muslim woman if she is Christian or Jewish, but it is not permissible for him to marry a non-Muslim woman who follows any religion other than these two.

It is not permissible for a Muslim woman to marry a non-Muslim from any other religion, whether from among the Jews or Christians, or any other kaafir religion.

link

Muslim men and women are told to seek faithful spouses with a strong, good belief, and not allow non-Muslim standards of selection influence them. Muslim men can marry only Muslim, Christian, or Jewish chaste women, while Muslim women can marry only chaste Muslim men.

link

So basically half of the Muslim population is not allowed to marry outside their faith.

Nothing racist/bigoted about Muslim states though, eh? Because I don't see you or your clone posting about that. Must have just overlooked it, I'm sure.

As a side note, that article is from '07, which means the survey likely took place in '06 since they take time to conduct and be published and then written about, and opinions/surveys like that vary greatly from year to year, so it's difficult to say if the same results, from the same group, would even yield the same results today. It's likely significant that the survey apparently was conducted shortly after Hamas was voted into power in Palestine.

Edited July 24, 2010 by American Woman

[JB Globe]

Have you seen the poll? Because I don't generally look at an article about poll results and draw conclusions. I, for one, wonder if it's marriage between a Jew and a non-Jew that they are against. I'm guessing if the Arab were a Jew, the question would have different results.

If you clicked on the link than you'd have an answer. Even though many Sephardic Jews are Arab by ethnicity (they are Jews that immigrated to Israel from Arab countries), they don't refer to themselves as Arab, because Arab is often used in Israel as a pejorative. So when Israeli newspaper articles refer to "Arabs" they're specifically referring to Muslim Palestinians or other Arabs, and in this case those folks are citizens of Israel (you'll rarely hear non-liberal Israelis call them Israelis).

You're correct in assuming that the main issue here is a Jew marrying a Muslim, even if that Jew is an atheist (as many Israelis are) and does many things that are against Jewish law like have pre-marital sex, eat pork, etc - apparently there is still a huge taboo about marrying people of Muslim heritage - and it's symbolic of the fact that this conflict has bred quite a lot of hatred on both sides of the conflict - Israel is not immune from this.

Here are some more findings:

A poll by the Center Against Racism (2008) found a worsening of Jewish citizens' perceptions of their Arab counterparts:

75% would not agree to live in a building with Arab residents.

More than 60% wouldn't accept any Arab visitors at their homes.

About 40% believed that Arabs should be stripped of the right to vote.

More than 50% agree that the State should encourage emigration of Arab citizens to other countries

More than 59% think that the culture of Arabs is a primitive culture.

When asked "What do you feel when you hear people speaking Arabic?" 31% said they feel hate and 50% said they feel fear, with only 19% stating positive or neutral feelings.

And come on. In light of the conflict that's going on, is it really "racist" for Jews to "fear" Arabs?

Considering the fact that to this day, there's only been a handful of incidents involving Arab-Israeli citizens committing any kind of violent acts, than it would seem to be irrational to fear Arab-Israelis. I think the racism comes into play when you look at society-wide discrimination and government polices that disadvantage Israeli-Arabs.

And quite frankly - if you're going to criticize anti-semitism in Palestine and elsewhere so heavily, you can't turn around and brush off examples of racism in Israel. Personally, I'm against racism in all forms, even in countries I tend to otherwise like.

Perhaps you should broaden your media outlets. I've read many articles, and the general consensus amoung Israelis is not so different from the rest of the world.

As I showed earlier, from an Israeli news source, 75% of Israelis are opposed to inter-religious marriages. You won't find that in too many other "Liberal Western Democracies"

I routinely check-in on all of the major dailies in Israel (Maariv, Ynet/Yedioth Ahronoth etc) when there is an issue like this to get a better picture. While some are not in English many 3rd party websites translate their articles for global consumption. I also read Ha'aretz because although it has small circulation it represents a very influential segment of the population - same thing with the Haredi Hamodia paper.

What outlets are your primary sources for Israeli opinion? Because some of your statements about Israeli society strike me as going against truths that are not controversial and widely held by most Israelis . . .

Furthermore, every country has religious and neo-cons, but most of the population doesn't fit into either category, and I can't believe that Israel would be any different.

You only need to look at the Israeli Knesset to realize that Israel is in-fact divided along these lines, and that religious parties in particular have been steadily gaining influence over the years.

That "higher standards" line is beginning to be tiring. They aren't obligated to please the rest of the world by taking what is seen as the 'higher road' at the expense of their safety/existence. They have every right to put themselves and their safety first, same as every other nation does. You honestly think Canada considers 'taking the high road' before it considers what the government perceives as best for Canada?

This is a false argument. The fact is that Israel's polices re: Palestine and their domestic policies and social climate towards Israeli Arabs undermine their security, economy, and international reputation.

Taking land away from Palestinians and putting religious zealots in their place who have to be guarded by the IDF doesn't make Israel safer. By the same token, discriminating against Israeli-Arabs and pushing them into ghettos and poverty doesn't make them less-likely to commit violent acts against the public. In fact, both actions make the situation worse.

Perhaps you could explain to me how discriminatory laws against Arabs in Israel helps Israel's security situation? Or what specific laws/policies you're referring to?

And this one conviction has nothing to do with any of that. It's but a passing blimp in Israel's democratic values and is no more an indication of a decline in that area than one moronic conviction in the Canadian courts is evidence of a decline in Canada's democratic values.

You're either being naive or disingenuous by trying to suggest that this is an isolated incident.

The fact is, there is plenty of public information out there to suggest that discrimination against Israeli Arabs is commonplace in Israel, and this position isn't even a controversial one WITHIN ISRAEL . . .

- Arab-Israelis account for 20% of the population yet over 50% of people below the poverty line.

- Of the 40 towns in Israel with the worst unemployment 36 are Arab-majority towns.

- Salary averages for Arab-Israelis are 26% lower than Jewish-Israelis that do the same jobs.

- The numbers for Christian/Druze Arabs are much better than Muslim Arabs in Israel, suggesting that religious discrimination is the primary factor.

- The Israeli Land Administration, which administers 93% of the land in Israel, will not lease land to non-Jewish Israelis.

- Israeli Arabs make up only 5% of the civil service, and almost exclusively are in roles that involve dealing with other Arabs.

- Building permits are rejected in higher numbers in Arab-Israeli neighbourhoods than in Jewish-Israeli ones.

- In a classic study similar to ones found in America, Israeli researchers found that Arab-Israelis received much harsher sentences for crimes than their Jewish-Israeli counterparts, even when both had committed the same crime and had the same amount of priors.

I'm sorry, but that's not proof on anything.

Well, I suppose unlike yourself I respect the analysis of a man who's lived through quite a lot in his life, has read more on this issue than any of us ever will, and is able to bring a sense of nuance to the situation that most people lack.

I'd appreciate it if you'd define "years ago" and elaborate as to what it is they've done.

I won't recount the whole rise-to-power of the religious right in Israel, but I will summarize:

The birthrates of secular Jews (who tend to vote progressive) have declined since the 1970s much like their counterparts elsewhere in Europe. In the same time, birthrates among Orthodox and Hasidic Jews have risen substantially. In the late 90s these groups decided to make an organized push to capitalize on these numbers and gain influence in politics. Whereas before religious political parties were always fringe groups representing many different sects, many groups banded together, and significantly - previously purely religious groups and bodies began injecting politics into their organizations to become both religious groups and political groups at the same time.

They first directed their attempts at municipal council because these bodies could enforce changes that would impact their members most directly - namely shutting down entire towns and cities on the Sabbath, banning certain kinds of dress and behaviour - segregating public spaces like buses based on gender. These election victories and subsequent changes emboldened zealots within the group and they started acting out - it is now not uncommon for women who do not wear orthodox clothing to be verbally and physically harassed in many neighbourhoods, because the groups of young thugs feel as though they own the area, because most officials are "their people".

This has also extended towards treatment of Arab-Israelis, as many of these councils administer some neighbourhoods where they live, and have been slashing programs they use as well as turning a blind eye towards incidents such as that in Pisgat Ze'ev where groups of Jewish men would patrol the area looking for inter-mixed couples and harassing them, as well as intimidating women into not dating Arab men.

This has also translated into big-gains at the national level in the past few years, where far-right religious parties have gotten a solid chunk of seats. Not coincidentally, the last few years have seen a record number (over 20 a year) of bills were proposed that would explicitly discriminate against non-Jews. Religious hardliners often split their votes between religious parties and far-right secular parties that nonetheless both have racist stances against Palestinians and Israeli-Arabs.

Most obviously, we see the fact that a blatantly bigoted anti-Arab politican, Avigdor Lieberman, is currently the Deputy PM and leader of a far-right party. This would be like a blatantly racist Tea Party member becoming the American VP - it's very significant.

For progressive Jews such as myself, this is all deeply troubling. And most of this information is widely known in Israel and not controversial. I can only speculate on why you seem so surprised about all of this to the point where you think that I'm making it up or exaggerating.

In a deeply polarized conflict this shouldn't be too shocking that this kind of thing happens. And my main point is that discrimination is counter-productive and that Israel can and should do more to deal with it, but that this unconditional support that Canada and the US give Israel makes it easier for them to ignore the problem and go with the status-quo.

[bud]

But at least they can marry outside their religion:

It is permissible for a Muslim man..

lol.

every time you post something the muslims do in their countries in response to what the jews do in israel, you prove that israel is not a beacon of democracy and human rights like you and others try to sell it as. it has more in common with the theocratic muslim countries than us here in the west.

bottom line is that you will never, ever see a person being convicted of rape because he pretended to follow a different religion in order to get into a woman's pants.

if you're unable to condemn this stupid racist conviction, then it's another proof that you're nothing but a hasbarabot.

ALL you do is justify everything israel does. even this racist conviction. people can see right through you.

[Guest American Woman]

If you clicked on the link than you'd have an answer.

There's a link to the survey? Where? I'll get back to you on what you said, but I'd like to see the survey for myself, see who was questioned, ages, etc. and I'd like to see the questions and how they were presented.

Edited July 24, 2010 by American Woman

[Guest American Woman]

if you're unable to condemn this stupid racist conviction, then it's another proof that you're nothing but a hasbarabot.

This response is proof that you're nothing but an idiot. Seriously. What does "I'm not defending this verdict" say to you? I'd like to know, for my own knowledge, how much you're able to comprehend; or more accurately, not able to comprehend.

ALL you do is justify everything israel does. even this racist conviction. people can see right through you.

See above. And then run out, fast as you can, and sign up for some remedial courses in reading comprehension.

Edited July 24, 2010 by American Woman

[dre]

This response is proof that you're nothing but an idiot. Seriously. What does "I'm not defending this verdict" say to you? I'd like to know, for my own knowledge, how much you're able to comprehend; or more accurately, not able to comprehend.

See above. And then run out, fast as you can, and sign up for some remedial courses in reading comprehension.

We had this conservation the other day about "defacto" defense.

You always claim you arent defending Israel in these threads or justifying their actions, but then you post classic defacto defenses...

1. That happens in muslim countries too!

2. Muslim countries are worse!

3. This incident is an anomaly that doesnt mean anything.

4. A person was charged for something similar in the UK.

5. That could happen anywhere!

6. They might make a law like that in Massechusetts!

7. Any country would defend its safety and security instead of taking the "high road"!

And so on... Those are classic, garden variety DEFENSES.

You might not mean to be defending the underlying act, but any reasonable reader is going to see those things as defenses, excuses, and justifications. And its not their "reading comprehension" that is at fault for that.

Then when youre called on that the inevitable responses...

1. Why dont you ask NAOMI questions like that!

2. You cant read!

3. Youre an idiot!

I guess we're all just idiots that cant read.

Edited July 24, 2010 by dre

[Guest American Woman]

...its not their "reading comprehension" that is at fault.....

When I say, in plain English, and I quote, "I am not defending this verdict," and then someone says I am defending this verdict, it's either their reading comprehension or stupidity that is at fault.

[dre]

There's a link to the survey? Where? I'll get back to you on what you said, but I'd like to see the survey for myself, see who was questioned, ages, etc. and I'd like to see the questions and how they were presented.

Heres another survey.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/Flash.aspx/174891

53% of 6400 Israeli Right Wingers polled believe that ethnic cleansing is the best way to resolve the conflict. Only 30% favor a two-state solution.

That polling was done by national news... which is a right wing publication and right wingers in general love violence and hate negotiation and cooperation, so the results are admittedly skewed. Still though... theres a lot of sick fucks over there, and its getting harder and harder to believe they are just a tiny minority.

Heres another poll with a similar question...

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article10522.htm

10/04/05 "Haaretz" -- -- Some 46 percent of Israel's Jewish citizens favor transferring Palestinians out of the territories, while 31 percent favor transferring Israeli Arabs out of the country, according to the Jaffee Center for Strategic Studies' annual national security public opinion poll.

In 1991, 38 percent of Israel's Jewish population was in favor of transferring the Palestinians out of the territories while 24 percent supported transferring Israeli Arabs.

When the question of transfer was posed in a more roundabout way, 60 percent of respondents said that they were in favor of encouraging Israeli Arabs to leave the country. The results of the survey also reveal that 24 percent of Israel's Jewish citizens believe that Israeli Arabs are not loyal to the state, compared to 38 percent who think the Arabs were loyal to the state at the beginning of the intifada.

The poll, overseen by Prof. Asher Arian, also finds that Jewish public opinion is Israel has become more extreme on issues of foreign affairs and defense as well as on possible concessions by Israel during peace talks in particular.

A representative sample of 1,264 Jewish residents of Israel were polled for the survey last month in face-to-face interviews.

For whatever reason racism and insane religious zealotry is on the rise.

[dre]

When I say, in plain English, and I quote, "I am not defending this verdict," and then someone says I am defending this verdict, it's either their reading comprehension or stupidity that is at fault.

I covered this... the problem is that right after you say you arent defending something, you begin posting classic garden variety defenses.

reading comprehension or stupidity that is at fault

Yeah... ok.

Edited July 24, 2010 by dre

[Guest American Woman]

We had this conservation the other day about "defacto" defense.

You always claim you arent defending Israel in these threads or justifying their actions, but then you post classic defacto defenses...

I never claimed I wasn't defending Israel! In fact, I quite clearly said, in light of the way Israel is being presented in these 40+ anti-Israel threads all started by the same poster that I AM defending Israel!

1. That happens in muslim countries too!

2. Muslim countries are worse!

Both true!

3. This incident is an anomaly that doesnt mean anything.

I believe you were the one who first said other examples were anomalies that didn't mean anything! So apparently it's only a legitimate statement when you say it!

4. A person was charged for something similar in the UK.

5. That could happen anywhere!

6. They might make a law like that in Massechusetts!

I brought those situations up in direct answer to a direct question! But of course that makes me at fault in your mind for some ludicrous reason!

7. Any country would defend its safety and security instead of taking the "high road"!

Again, a true statement! Especially when taken in the context I said it in!

And so on... Those are classic, garden variety DEFENSES.

Of course they are! Because you said so!

You might not mean to be defending the underlying act, but any reasonable reader is going to see those things as defenses, excuses, and justifications. And its not their "reading comprehension" that is at fault for that.

A "reasonable reader" can understand the difference between "I am defending the law" and "I'm not defending this verdict!"

Then when youre called on that the inevitable responses...

1. Why dont you ask NAOMI questions like that!

2. You cant read!

3. Youre an idiot!

I guess we're all just idiots that cant read.

Apparently some of you are!

Edited July 24, 2010 by American Woman

[dre]

I never claimed I wasn't defending Israel! In fact, I quite clearly said, in light of the way Israel is being presented in these 40+ anti-Israel threads all started by the same poster that I AM defending Israel!

Both true!

I believe you were the one who first said other examples were anomalies that didn't mean anything! So apparently it's only a legitimate statement when you say it!

I brought those situations up in direct answer to a direct question! But of course that makes me at fault in your mind for some ludicrous reason!

Again, a true statement! Especially when taken in the context I said it in!

Of course they are! Because you said so!

A "reasonable reader" can understand the difference between "I am defending the law" and "I'm not defending this verdict!"

Apparently some of you are!

Of course they are! Because you said so!

No, because thats what they literally and figuratively ARE.

Most of them fall under whats known as the "Everybody does it!" defense. A very common and well documented method of defending something thats also a logical fallacy, because of course pointing out that the act in question has been done by others is not a real assessment of the act itself.

Again, a true statement! Especially when taken in the context I said it in!

Yeah the "everybody does it" defense is often based on true claims. That doesnt change the fact that its A. a defense, and B. logical fallacy.

Apparently some of you are!

[JB Globe]

There's a link to the survey? Where? I'll get back to you on what you said, but I'd like to see the survey for myself, see who was questioned, ages, etc. and I'd like to see the questions and how they were presented.

There was a link to a Ynet article on the study that I posted, and here's one from Ha'aretz

The study itself is in Hebrew, there's no translated copy available but it has been referenced in lots of media outlets, Israeli and otherwise, and by a lot of Academics, again - both Israeli and non-Israeli.

It was done by Geocartography, which is a major research/marketing company in Israel, and the Centre Against Racism is an Israeli organization as well.

I assume you're going to get around the rest of my post at some point, yes?

[Guest American Woman]

There was a link to a Ynet article on the study that I posted, and here's one from Ha'aretz

The study itself is in Hebrew, there's no translated copy available but it has been referenced in lots of media outlets, Israeli and otherwise, and by a lot of Academics, again - both Israeli and non-Israeli.

It was done by Geocartography, which is a major research/marketing company in Israel, and the Centre Against Racism is an Israeli organization as well.

I assume you're going to get around the rest of my post at some point, yes?

Yes; as I said, I will get back to you. I do appreciate your previous response, but I've been trying to find more information on this survey myself, too. I also thank you for this response, but without seeing the survey, who was surveyed, what part of Israel they live in, ages of the participants, how the questions were presented, what other questions were asked but aren't being discussed in the articles about the survey, what the margin of error is, etc., I do have a problem taking the survey at face value, especially since surveys such as this vary so much from one year to the next.

In the absence of more information, I'm going to assume that "Arab" means non-Jewish Israeli Arab.

I will say this before tackling the rest of your post: I do realize that relations between Israeli Jews and Israeli Arabs are strained, on both sides. A quick example:

40% of Israeli Arabs believe Holocaust never happened

Survey also finds that only 41% of Israeli Arabs recognize Israel's right to exist as Jewish state.

This is as good an example of how Israeli Arabs feel about Jews, as well as an example of the difference that time makes:

....only 53.7 percent of the Israeli Arab public believe Israel has a right to exist just as an independent country, according to the poll, down from 81.1 percent in 2003.

That's a huge difference, so I am not comfortable saying that one survey from three years ago is indicative of how "Israelis feel."

Having said that, I will get back to you. My daughter and her BF are here, so we've been watching movies, etc., so I may not have time to respond tonight, but I most definitely will get back to you.

Edited July 24, 2010 by American Woman

[Guest American Woman]

If you clicked on the link than you'd have an answer. Even though many Sephardic Jews are Arab by ethnicity (they are Jews that immigrated to Israel from Arab countries), they don't refer to themselves as Arab, because Arab is often used in Israel as a pejorative. So when Israeli newspaper articles refer to "Arabs" they're specifically referring to Muslim Palestinians or other Arabs, and in this case those folks are citizens of Israel (you'll rarely hear non-liberal Israelis call them Israelis).

I wanted to see the survey to see if they were referring to "Arabs" or "Israeli Arabs," as I've read plenty of articles where the author says things their own way.

At any rate, the article itself refers to "Israeli Jews" and "Arabs,"so evidently it's not just non-liberal Israelis who refer to them as "Arabs."

You're correct in assuming that the main issue here is a Jew marrying a Muslim, even if that Jew is an atheist (as many Israelis are) and does many things that are against Jewish law like have pre-marital sex, eat pork, etc - apparently there is still a huge taboo about marrying people of Muslim heritage - and it's symbolic of the fact that this conflict has bred quite a lot of hatred on both sides of the conflict - Israel is not immune from this.

I agree and acknowledge that there is a lot of hatred on both sides of the conflict, and I'm sure a lot of it is understandable. Yet it seems as if Israel is always singled out as 'the bad guy' on this board. 40+ anti-Israel threads by one poster is extreme, and notice that no one has started a bajillion anti-Israel/anti-Palestine threads in response. I find it irritating that Israel is being singled out and presented in a bad light this way, and as I pointed out, this one verdict, which even Israelis reacted to negatively, is not any indication of Israel/Israelis being racist any more than one bad verdict in either Canada or the U.S. speaks for our nations.

It isn't uncommon for Jewish parents to want their children to marry other Jews outside of Israel, either; for Jews to want to marry into their faith. And as I pointed out, it's not just Jews who feel this way. I have said on more than one occasion that Muslim nations have a right to exist, so I would be biased if I didn't feel that Israel has that same right. If the Muslims want to marry other Muslims, so be it. I understand that. I don't understand Muslim men being able to marry outside of their faith while Muslim women can't, but I personally have a lot of problems regarding Islam and women.

Here are some more findings:

A poll by the Center Against Racism (2008) found a worsening of Jewish citizens' perceptions of their Arab counterparts:

75% would not agree to live in a building with Arab residents.

More than 60% wouldn't accept any Arab visitors at their homes.

About 40% believed that Arabs should be stripped of the right to vote.

More than 50% agree that the State should encourage emigration of Arab citizens to other countries

More than 59% think that the culture of Arabs is a primitive culture.

When asked "What do you feel when you hear people speaking Arabic?" 31% said they feel hate and 50% said they feel fear, with only 19% stating positive or neutral feelings.

I can understand their feeling fear. That's not "racism," that's a reaction to the situation over there. Would you think it was racist if Palestinians said they feel fear around Israeli Jews? I think the tense feelings are a product of life over there, and a lot of the feelings/actions are reactions to that.

Again, I'd like to know how the questions were presented and what the options were, because when polls are conducted here there's usually a choice between degrees of how strongly one believes. In this instance, even the 'somewhat' or 'sometimes' believes would all be lumped in with the 'strongly believes,' and I think that presents a slanted view, different from the reality. In other words, if Canadians somewhat disagree with the government, it's a different picture from saying they disagree.

I have to say, not having lived in Israel, not having lived with the threat of suicide bombers, I can't judge them for not wanting to live in the same building as Arabs. I'm not saying it's morally right for them to feel that way, but it's not just outright prejudice/racism, as it seems to be being presented as. Furthermore, this conflict involves two nations, and constantly being presented with only the way one side feels/acts is bigoted, IMO. So I just kind of shake my head and wonder at the self-righteousness of such behavior, which is why I bring up what 'the other side' does/feels/engages in too, for which I'm chastised.

As for believing that the culture of "Arabs," and I'm reading "Muslims" here, is primitive, as a woman, I don't disagree. I think some of their laws/punishments are definitely "primitive."

Considering the fact that to this day, there's only been a handful of incidents involving Arab-Israeli citizens committing any kind of violent acts, than it would seem to be irrational to fear Arab-Israelis. I think the racism comes into play when you look at society-wide discrimination and government polices that disadvantage Israeli-Arabs.

That I can't understand at all. There has been plenty of Arab-Israeli violence directed at Israeli Jews, and I think only someone who hasn't lived with it can dismiss it/downplay it the way you just have. My daughter's at-the-time BF was in Israel when a suicide attack, killing several people, occurred at a place he had been to not that much earlier. It sure shook him up. He wouldn't even get on a bus after that, and I would feel the same fear he did, I'm sure.

For you to say that Israeli Jews have no justification for their fear is just totally difficult for me to understand. They even voted Hamas into power, and that was, as I pointed out, right before this survey took place. Not to mention more than half think Israel doesn't have the right to exist.

So do I think it's wrong for Israeli Jews to think Israeli Arabs' right to vote should be taken away? Of course, but I sure don't think it's worse than thinking Israel doesn't have a right to exist. Furthermore, I don't think it's "racism" when the other side doesn't feel any differently. How can only one side be guilty of racism in such a situation? Which, again, is why I bring up 'the other side,' because it's very relevant. To not bring up the other side when it's relevant, to only see one side, is what's racist/bigoted.

And quite frankly - if you're going to criticize anti-semitism in Palestine and elsewhere so heavily, you can't turn around and brush off examples of racism in Israel. Personally, I'm against racism in all forms, even in countries I tend to otherwise like.

Excuse me?? Where have I criticized anti-anti-semitism in Palestine and elsewhere so heavily?? I haven't started so much as one thread about anti-semitism in Palestine or anywhere else. All that I've had to say I've had to say in response to all the negative threads about Israel. Yet you don't have one word to say to the author of those 40+ threads about "brushing off" examples of racism there? I'm supposed to not even bring those examples up, from what I've been told, and I don't see you disagreeing.

So I'll go right on defending Israel when it's being presented in a false/unfair light. And I'll point out again that no one here is doing that regarding Palestine/Israeli Arabs. I would think that in itself speaks volumes.

As I showed earlier, from an Israeli news source, 75% of Israelis are opposed to inter-religious marriages. You won't find that in too many other "Liberal Western Democracies"

Israel is a Jewish nation, and they have the democratic right to feel opposed to inter-religious marriages. Note, however, that it's not against the law. They have the right to marry outside of their religion. That's what makes them a Democracy. I'm not sure why you specified "liberal," however. A democracy isn't under any obligation to be "liberal" in order to be a shining example of democracy.

I routinely check-in on all of the major dailies in Israel (Maariv, Ynet/Yedioth Ahronoth etc) when there is an issue like this to get a better picture. While some are not in English many 3rd party websites translate their articles for global consumption. I also read Ha'aretz because although it has small circulation it represents a very influential segment of the population - same thing with the Haredi Hamodia paper.

Then you must be aware that this verdict isn't receiving support in Israel, and the verdict is being appealed. That wouldn't be possible in a non-Democracy.

What outlets are your primary sources for Israeli opinion? Because some of your statements about Israeli society strike me as going against truths that are not controversial and widely held by most Israelis . . .

I have many sources. When I am reading up on an issue, I read a variety of sources. You'll have to specify which of my statements about Israeli society "strike you as going against truths," because I've always sourced my information.

As for the rest of your post, I'll have to respond later .....

[Borg]

A Palestinian man has been convicted of rape after having consensual sex with a woman who had believed him to be a fellow Jew.

When she later found out that he was not Jewish but an Arab, she filed a criminal complaint for rape and indecent assault.

The Guardian

Hmmmm.......

She must have been blind considering the usual physical difference once he dropped his pants.

Sounds a bit fishy to me

Borg

[Bonam]

Hmmmm.......

She must have been blind considering the usual physical difference once he dropped his pants.

Sounds a bit fishy to me

Borg

Many Arabs also undergo circumcision (as do many Westerners who are neither Jewish nor Muslim), it is not just a Jewish thing.

[Borg]

Many Arabs also undergo circumcision (as do many Westerners who are neither Jewish nor Muslim), it is not just a Jewish thing.

Agreed - however it is not so common as one might think among arabs in the "Holy Land" - in fact it is very often highly frowned upon

Borg

Edited July 25, 2010 by Borg

[Bonam]

Agreed - however it is not so common as one might think among arabs in the "Holy Land" - in fact it is very often highly frowned upon

Apparently this one didn't frown upon it. What's a little cut if it lets him score the hot Jewish chicks right?

[bloodyminded]

Agreed - however it is not so common as one might think among arabs in the "Holy Land" - in fact it is very often highly frowned upon

Borg

Circumcision, while not universally practiced by all Muslims, is extremely common...more common than it is among non-Muslims (aside from the Jewish people, of course).

I suppose you're just inventing "facts" out of thin air. Keep it up.

[bud]

This response is proof that you're nothing but an idiot. Seriously. What does "I'm not defending this verdict" say to you? I'd like to know, for my own knowledge, how much you're able to comprehend; or more accurately, not able to comprehend.

you're defending it by not condemning it.

you're defending it by pretending that we have such a law in the west, when there is no such law and no one in the west has been convicted of rape by pretending to be someone with a different religious/ethnic background.

you're defending it because that's all you do, is to defend everything israel does.

keep trying hasbarabot.

Edited August 2, 2010 by bud

[DogOnPorch]

Here's your dub...lol.