Tiananmen Square Massacre

[Hugo]

For those who don't know, today is the 15th anniversary of the day when Chinese soldiers killed hundreds or thousands of peaceful protestors in Tiananmen Square. Their crime was to demand democratic reform and some say in their own futures, for the Chinese Communist Party to stop literally telling them where to live, where to work, what to eat and whom to marry.

Take a look at the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation, who are trying to raise funds to erect a memorial in Washington DC, proposed as a replica of the Goddess of Democracy statue built by the Tiananmen Square protesters and smashed by the Chinese military.

[Liberal Krusty]

Cry me a river Hugo. These aggressive pacifists demonstrate against a dictatorship that was pacifistic in nature (unless challenged) and you hold them up as heros? Anything is better than violence and these protestors pretty much begged for it. You are barking up the wrong tree here war lover.

[idealisttotheend]

How exactly does a pasifist (aggressive or not) beg for violence, or a pacifistic dictatorship commit violence? Is this not oxymoronic?

[Liberal Krusty]

They could have stayed at home conserving natural resources and educated their children on same. Instead, they confronted the status quo. It was none of their business and interfered with tanks dong their patrols. Everything was ok until they started trouble.

If you see something pacifistic about starting trouble I question your judgement. Even Ghandi was aggressive.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Hugo,

to erect a memorial in Washington DC, proposed as a replica of the Goddess of Democracy statue built by the Tiananmen Square protesters and smashed by the Chinese military.

Rather funny that. The Chinese Gov't does not want democracy, nor does the US gov't want the Chinese to have it. That is why the Chinese Gov't was rewarded by the US for Tiananmen Square. (Sanctions were imposed for the sake of appearances, then lifted. Further, some 400 Chinese students had their visa extensions cancelled in the US.)

Dear Liberal Krusty,

Your tongue-in-cheekiness does little for debate. By way of your cynicism, opposing oppression is aggression. The 'immovable object' becomes the villain. My guess would be that you don't actually like Liberals.

[Liberal Krusty]

The 'immovable object' becomes the villain.

And becomes an unstoppable object in motion. In order to set it in motion usually takes violence or in the least confrontation against a sedintary entity. Violence usually where little or none existed before (Iraq) And environmental harm is the product. If you find anything Right about being at peace and Leftist about wanting to keep things the way they are then I seriously question your political convictions.

[idealisttotheend]

If you see something pacifistic about starting trouble I question your judgement. Even Ghandi was aggressive.

Ghandi was agressive but he was still the ultimate pacifist. The two are not mutually contradictory. One can act aggressively but not violently. In fact pacifism would fail if actually done passively. But it only works when the agressor country has a free press and that is why Ghandi succeeded in his aggressive non-violence..

[Liberal Krusty]

LOL, he was a right wing nut disguised as a pacifist. In order to go against the British he sacrificed thousands of his own whom he knew would be beaten, killed and maimed before the world discovered what the British were doing. I guess to all those with aggression, both Left and Right, the end justifies the means. A good end if you were not one of those beaten or killed but another one entirely if you were. Kind of like the US in Iraq. Great for those who live but terrible for those who die.

Let's move onto the Freedom Riders, how many died and were beaten that otherwise would have lived peaceful lives with the status quo? A nut is a nut, and they are all Right Wing. even when disguised as Left Wing Pacifists. As soon as they throw others in harms way they become Right Wing nuts, only the end difers the theological outlook.

[Hugo]

the Chinese Gov't was rewarded by the US for Tiananmen Square.

Sanctions are still in place. The Western world as a whole punished China for the massacre and and Chinese foreign relations took a massive nose-dive. Zhao Ziyang was forced to resign. Just last year, the Chinese government sent an unsuccessful delegation to the European Union to try and get their arms sales ban lifted.

Furthermore, Western trade and involvement with China is key in helping them out of their communist nightmare. Since China began trading internationally, the average Chinese income has quadrupled. Since 1989, virtually all the reforms demanded by the Tiananmen Square protesters have been granted.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Hugo,

Furthermore, Western trade and involvement with China is key in helping them out of their communist nightmare

The communist system is key to western trade, for 'westernization' in China would ruin China. All of Nike's slave labour comes from there. Can you imagine the outrage Tiger Woods would have if those factories in China got 'Union' wages and benefits?

Since 1989, virtually all the reforms demanded by the Tiananmen Square protesters have been granted.

I believe that the protesters wanted something trivial, called 'democracy'.

Sanctions are still in place. The Western world as a whole punished China for the massacre and and Chinese foreign relations took a massive nose-dive.

Pres. Bush lifted many of those sanctions and China attained #1 favoured trading status.

I also must admit a mistake in my fact recollection, The number of Chinese students who had their Visa extensions cancelled in the US after Tienamen was not 400, but 40,000.