Apprently Vacationing Is A Human Right Now

[Bonam]

http://www.vancouversun.com/travel/news/Vacationing+human+right+chief+says/2924330/story.html

The European Union has declared travelling a human right, and is launching a scheme to subsidize vacations with taxpayers' dollars for those too poor to afford their own trips.

How much more ridiculous could this get? Seems the world's leaders are making up new rights left and right.

How many people have never gone on a vacation farther than they can drive in their lives, saving up money for other goals and paying taxes? And now those tax dollars will be squandered to allow others the privilege of flying around.

This is an utter disgrace.

[nicky10013]

http://www.vancouversun.com/travel/news/Vacationing+human+right+chief+says/2924330/story.html

The European Union has declared travelling a human right, and is launching a scheme to subsidize vacations with taxpayers' dollars for those too poor to afford their own trips.

How much more ridiculous could this get? Seems the world's leaders are making up new rights left and right.

How many people have never gone on a vacation farther than they can drive in their lives, saving up money for other goals and paying taxes? And now those tax dollars will be squandered to allow others the privilege of flying around.

This is an utter disgrace.

While I don't know if it's a "right" I view travelling as a form of education. If the people of the EU support it, what's the problem?

[Sir Bandelot]

http://www.vancouversun.com/travel/news/Vacationing+human+right+chief+says/2924330/story.html

The European Union has declared travelling a human right, and is launching a scheme to subsidize vacations with taxpayers' dollars for those too poor to afford their own trips.

This is an utter disgrace.

I don't know why you consider it a disgrace, but evidently they have more tax money to play with than they have real problems to solve.

If I recall correctly, the Nazis also had a similar program in pre-WWII Germany, where all workers were entitled to some kind of subsidy that allowed them to take a cruise on a German ocean liner. Those nutsy Nazis...

[Pliny]

Governments are not supposed to grant rights it needs to protect rights - if it can grant them it can take them away. Why should government decide who needs a vacation?

I agree - disgraceful. Unfortunately, it is the European mindset. Government must provide these things....er..."rights".

[nicky10013]

Governments are not supposed to grant rights it needs to protect rights - if it can grant them it can take them away. Why should government decide who needs a vacation?

I agree - disgraceful. Unfortunately, it is the European mindset. Government must provide these things....er..."rights".

Yes, but it's up to the people to decide which rights are actually rights. Like I said, if the people support it, how could it be a disgrace? Just because you disagree with it doesn't make it a disgrace.

Furthremore, the "European Mindset" is more where we need to be. Despite what people think about some of the bloated national social programmes, the EU itself has been heavily investing in brand new transportation (and most importantly) and information infrastructure to bring the economy into the 21st century. Where the EU is, we need to be. The EU is by far the largest economy on the planet and European companies have been slowly and very quietly eclipsing American ones in terms of supremacy in certain markets.

Edited April 20, 2010 by nicky10013

[M.Dancer]

The EU is by far the largest economy on the planet and European companies have been slowly and very quietly eclipsing American ones in terms of supremacy in certain markets.

If "by far" you mean slightly, according to some, then yes...

IMF

World 60,917,477[4]

European Union 18,387,785[4]

1 United States 14,441,425

IMF

World 60,587,016

1 United States 14,204,322

Eurozone 13,565,4793

CIA Fact Book

World 57,530,000

European Union 16,010,000

1 United States 14,270,000

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)

I can't for the life of me understand how they came to the conclusion that a road trip is a human right..

Edited April 20, 2010 by M.Dancer

[nicky10013]

If "by far" you mean slightly, according to some, then yes...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)

I can't for the life of me understand how they came to the conclusion that a road trip is a human right..

If by slightly you mean roughly 4 trillion dollars....

[Michael Hardner]

If by slightly you mean roughly 4 trillion dollars....

It sounds like a lot, but expressed as a percentage it's not as evident. Tell me what you think 'by far' means as a percentage, and I would say that the estimates need to average to that amount.

[bush_cheney2004]

It sounds like a lot, but expressed as a percentage it's not as evident. Tell me what you think 'by far' means as a percentage, and I would say that the estimates need to average to that amount.

Indeed...the "mighty" European Union stumbled badly when it came to the PIGS crisis, always knowing that the US backed IMF was their last resort. Greece is still very wobbly.

[ToadBrother]

Indeed...the "mighty" European Union stumbled badly when it came to the PIGS crisis, always knowing that the US backed IMF was their last resort. Greece is still very wobbly.

Spain and Ireland ain't far behind. The EU's whole deficit management requirements were shown to be bunk when everyone turned the other way as Athens grew its budget deficit and its debt astronomically for the 2004 Athens Olympics. What has become very clear was the old nightmare scenario in pre-Treaty of Versailles times; the only thing worse than Germany and France trying to beat the crap out of each other at every opportunity was France and Germany getting past a thousand years of mutual dislike and actually uniting. The EU, particularly after the Greek bailout, is more and more becoming the Franco-German Union with a bunch of other states along for the ride.

[bush_cheney2004]

..... The EU, particularly after the Greek bailout, is more and more becoming the Franco-German Union with a bunch of other states along for the ride.

Wait...it gets better. One tiny volcano in Iceland has exposed yet another EU governance fiasco. So it's a long drive to Spain for the Great 2010 Escape from Europe.

[Moonlight Graham]

It should be a human right not to have governments propose stupid ideas like this.

[Natchuck]

If they can afford it I have no problem with them granting their citizens another entitlement, but to characterize it as a "human right" is rediculous.

[Sir Bandelot]

What is a human being. What should our rights be. In the industrial revolution, people had to work up to 16 hours per day, every day. Since that time there has been legislation introduced to protect leisure time, to prevent exploitation of workers so that people get guaranteed breaks during the day to rest and replenish themselves. Vacation time is protected, at least there are minimums. And in Europe as I understand it, many companies do not require their employees to work as many hours as we do here in North America. There is a different attitude there as to what the human being is and what we deserve. I myself prefer not to be a corporate slave to be yoked up to the machinery. Hence I have negotiated with my own employer to work something like "European hours", lots of flexible time and less than 8 hours per day. This is only starting to gain ground in north america, not accepted as the norm yet.

Thanks to people like me, one day you or your children will have more freedom too, if they wish it. But don't worry, others can continue to embrace economic self-whoredom, whatever turns your crank

Edited April 20, 2010 by Sir Bandelot

[bloodyminded]

What is a human being. What should our rights be. In the industrial revolution, people had to work up to 16 hours per day, every day. Since that time there has been legislation introduced to protect leisure time, to prevent exploitation of workers so that people get guaranteed breaks during the day to rest and replenish themselves. Vacation time is protected, at least there are minimums. And in Europe as I understand it, many companies do not require their employees to work as many hours as we do here in North America. There is a different attitude there as to what the human being is and what we deserve. I myself prefer not to be a corporate slave to be yoked up to the machinery. Hence I have negotiated with my own employer to work something like "European hours", lots of flexible time and less than 8 hours per day. This is only starting to gain ground in north america, not accepted as the norm yet.

Thanks to people like me, one day you or your children will have more freedom too, if they wish it. But don't worry, others can continue to embrace economic self-whoredom, whatever turns your crank

True. We have a tendency here to respect a person for working 70 hours a week. Personally, I feel (genuine) pity, rather than ("work ethic"-worshipping) respect.

Maybe we'll be more civilized someday.

[nicky10013]

Wait...it gets better. One tiny volcano in Iceland has exposed yet another EU governance fiasco. So it's a long drive to Spain for the Great 2010 Escape from Europe.

How does iceland create another fiasco? The EU ordered the planes down. People generally complain until someone gets killed. In this case, people were bound to complain until a plane crashed. If one did, the "fiasco" would be 10 times worse than it is now. I think we seem to be forgetting the Finnish F-16 that came back with an engine which was heavily damaged.

[nicky10013]

Spain and Ireland ain't far behind. The EU's whole deficit management requirements were shown to be bunk when everyone turned the other way as Athens grew its budget deficit and its debt astronomically for the 2004 Athens Olympics. What has become very clear was the old nightmare scenario in pre-Treaty of Versailles times; the only thing worse than Germany and France trying to beat the crap out of each other at every opportunity was France and Germany getting past a thousand years of mutual dislike and actually uniting. The EU, particularly after the Greek bailout, is more and more becoming the Franco-German Union with a bunch of other states along for the ride.

For the smaller nations within the EU, the benefits far outweigh the cons.

[Bonam]

What is a human being. What should our rights be. In the industrial revolution, people had to work up to 16 hours per day, every day. Since that time there has been legislation introduced to protect leisure time, to prevent exploitation of workers so that people get guaranteed breaks during the day to rest and replenish themselves. Vacation time is protected, at least there are minimums. And in Europe as I understand it, many companies do not require their employees to work as many hours as we do here in North America. There is a different attitude there as to what the human being is and what we deserve. I myself prefer not to be a corporate slave to be yoked up to the machinery. Hence I have negotiated with my own employer to work something like "European hours", lots of flexible time and less than 8 hours per day. This is only starting to gain ground in north america, not accepted as the norm yet.

Thanks to people like me, one day you or your children will have more freedom too, if they wish it. But don't worry, others can continue to embrace economic self-whoredom, whatever turns your crank

I think perhaps you may have missed the point of the thread. They aren't talking about giving people vacation time, they are talking about paying for people to travel on their vacations. The two are completely different things. Of course I am for and I'm sure most others are for reasonable working hours, the ability to negotiate with one's employer, and having vacation time.

But having travel subsidized at the expense of others in this way? Personally I would be enraged if I had to pay for such a thing. And as for naming it a "human right"... that just makes an utter mockery of the whole concept of human rights.

Edited April 20, 2010 by Bonam

[Oleg Bach]

http://www.vancouversun.com/travel/news/Vacationing+human+right+chief+says/2924330/story.html

The European Union has declared travelling a human right, and is launching a scheme to subsidize vacations with taxpayers' dollars for those too poor to afford their own trips.

How much more ridiculous could this get? Seems the world's leaders are making up new rights left and right.

How many people have never gone on a vacation farther than they can drive in their lives, saving up money for other goals and paying taxes? And now those tax dollars will be squandered to allow others the privilege of flying around.

This is an utter disgrace.

The opposite takes place here. A seperated adulterous wife can legally demand money from the offended husband and if he does not pay - they remove HIS drivers licence...which destroys his ability to earn a living, plus it is clearly against the spirit of our chartered mobilty rights.

[Oleg Bach]

How does iceland create another fiasco? The EU ordered the planes down. People generally complain until someone gets killed. In this case, people were bound to complain until a plane crashed. If one did, the "fiasco" would be 10 times worse than it is now. I think we seem to be forgetting the Finnish F-16 that came back with an engine which was heavily damaged.

People do not need to globe trot about as if they were hoping a subway to the next station...look at the billions of tons of aviation fuel being burned....look at an over head chart concerning air travel...it looks like a sphere infected by a plauge of locusts....air travel is not a human right - AND if I see my friend Allen fly 5000 kilometers for a meeting where he gets drunk does nothing and comes home - I will vomit....mother earth is simply slapping you around - and you diserve it.

[Sir Bandelot]

I think perhaps you may have missed the point of the thread. They aren't talking about giving people vacation time, they are talking about paying for people to travel on their vacations. The two are completely different things. Of course I am for and I'm sure most others are for reasonable working hours, the ability to negotiate with one's employer, and having vacation time.

I know the point of this thread, I can read. I don't think you get what I'm talking about. We're obviously on two different wavelengths, you and I.

Try thinking outside the box once in a while, a little unconventional thought wouldn't hurt. It's not all about the money all the time. A human being should deserve to be free.

That's idealism, I know, and I'm not sure I agree with the EU that it should be a basic human right. But maybe they want to take humanity beyond the basics.

Moreover, someone has to stop the capitalists from inflating the cost of everything to the point that only the elite get to live with some dignity. Ever think about that

Edited April 21, 2010 by Sir Bandelot

[Bonam]

I know the point of this thread, I can read. I don't think you get what I'm talking about. We're obviously on two different wavelengths, you and I.

Indeed, we are.

Try thinking outside the box once in a while, a little unconventional thought wouldn't hurt. It's not all about the money all the time. A human being should deserve to be free.

See, the part we agree on of course is that a human being deserves to be free. The part where we differ appears to be in our definition of freedom. Yours seems to be that humans should be free to enjoy all kinds of luxuries, which require the time and labour of others, without having to do anything to earn them. My view of freedom is that one should be free to enjoy the fruits of one's labour, rather than having them arbitrarily redistributed to others.

It's not about money, it's about the reality that things like air travel, hotels, restaurants, take time and effort and investment to make available. That has to come from somewhere. If it's not coming from the people who are partaking in these luxuries, then it is coming from someone else, someone who is sitting there and working while you enjoy an expensive vacation on their backs.

I really can't even begin to grasp the train of thought that would honestly conclude that subsidized vacations to exotic destinations is a human right. To me it just seems like socialist insanity of the most extreme type.

That's idealism, I know, and I'm not sure I agree with the EU that it should be a basic human right. But maybe they want to take humanity beyond the basics.

Taking humanity beyond the basics is what our society is all about. It is achieved through economic growth and technological innovation. It is not achieved by forcing productive people to pay for others to enjoy some of life's most expensive luxuries.

Moreover, someone has to stop the capitalists from inflating the cost of everything to the point that only the elite get to live with some dignity. Ever think about that

No, can't say that I have. Capitalists compete with each other in a free market and prices are driven down, not up. As for living with dignity... nothing could be more dignified than working to achieve one's goals and then enjoying the rewards as those goals are achieved. There is no dignity in basking on a tropical beach knowing that it is being paid for by the taxes of hundreds of others slaving away in cubicles somewhere while you yourself contributed little or nothing.

The reality is that if tax dollars are squandered on programs such as this, they will eventually have to be raised to pay for all the entitlements, and that is what will inflate prices most of all, as corporations have to raise their prices to maintain viability in the face of ever increasing tax burden. Meanwhile, more and more of the middle class will lose buying power due to higher taxes and higher prices. And while all this is happening those who contribute nothing will be flying around on fancy planes and laying back on sunny beaches.

Frankly, the very concept of this "right" seems like some horrible perversion of society to me.

[Oleg Bach]

HOW can you call a capitalist a capitalist when they are all now dependant on the labour of a totally socialist nation...China? Makes you wonder if socialism is actually financed by capitialist. Capitialist are now globalists and they have no loyality to nationhood..so Obamas arch socialism is actually capitalism at it's peak - Just think - the tax payer will now pay directly and ten times as much to big pharma..go figure.

[Sulaco]

I am sure someone has pointed this out already, but this is obviously an attempt to help out Spain, Portugal, Greece and Southern Italy by subsidizing British and German tourists with British and German money.

Edited April 21, 2010 by Sulaco

[Pliny]

What is a human being. What should our rights be. In the industrial revolution, people had to work up to 16 hours per day, every day. Since that time there has been legislation introduced to protect leisure time, to prevent exploitation of workers so that people get guaranteed breaks during the day to rest and replenish themselves. Vacation time is protected, at least there are minimums. And in Europe as I understand it, many companies do not require their employees to work as many hours as we do here in North America. There is a different attitude there as to what the human being is and what we deserve. I myself prefer not to be a corporate slave to be yoked up to the machinery. Hence I have negotiated with my own employer to work something like "European hours", lots of flexible time and less than 8 hours per day. This is only starting to gain ground in north america, not accepted as the norm yet.

Thanks to people like me, one day you or your children will have more freedom too, if they wish it. But don't worry, others can continue to embrace economic self-whoredom, whatever turns your crank

Well, was it legislation or was it competition and the production of wealth that brought us those "rights"? The government tends to enact legislation after the fact not before.

We could have a great discussion about that. Because in order for people to enjoy their wealth, if wealth is considered leisure time, vacation time, less work and more money, they have to create it first.

Government by enacting such legislation only kills competition. Companies that were marginally profitable probably closed their doors after such government labour legislation. Because the profit wasn't there. It helped some workers and devastated others as is the case with much of government's intervention in the economy.

People that came here and homesteaded land worked pretty hard and had pretty hard lives but they were able to create wealth and enjoy the fruits of their labour. They weren't taxed to death on their wealth either. they certainly knew what a day's work was.

The industrial workers were different, and I suppose since any landowner that worked his land or ranched had to work seven days a week why shouldn't a factory worker?

Anyway, you can't get blood from a stone. You can't get rights and benefits that need to be paid for unless there is profit in production, that is, unless wealth is created. The EU is on the verge of not being able to afford itself.

Edited April 21, 2010 by Pliny