Racism on the reserve

[Moonbox]

I think it is going rather well for them, don't you? And all of this is just the tip of the iceberg. More is in negotiation...like the Mohawk corridor from Montreal to Windsor, CN owes the Mohawks big money for failing to hold up their end of agreements made 100 years ago.

It doesn't end. This is just the beginning.

It will end, and it will end long before you hope it to. It may be the beginning but what you fail to understand is that the Supreme Court of Canada is not governed by robots nor is the provincial or federal legislatures. These settlements you speak of are given by Canadians to get the First Nations to shut up and stop crying. It's often just less of a bother.

What do you think will happen when the First Nations push for something that DOES matter to Canadians? Do you think the Supreme Court or Canadian governments are going to bankrupt or pauper the average TAX PAYING Canadian for the benefit of the First Nations? In your dreams. There's not even a CHANCE of that happening.

Edited March 3, 2010 by Moonbox

[Smallc]

He knows that. It says so in Section 1 of the Canadian Charter or Rights and Freedoms. He just refuses to acknowledge that.

[charter.rights]

It will end, and it will end long before you hope it to. It may be the beginning but what you fail to understand is that the Supreme Court of Canada is not governed by robots nor is the provincial or federal legislatures. These settlements you speak of are given by Canadians to get the First Nations to shut up and stop crying. It's often just less of a bother.

What do you think will happen when the First Nations push for something that DOES matter to Canadians? Do you think the Supreme Court or Canadian governments are going to bankrupt or pauper the average TAX PAYING Canadian for the benefit of the First Nations? In your dreams. There's not even a CHANCE of that happening.

Incorrect, again. The Supreme Court of Canada is governed by The Canadian Constitution above all else. The fact is that lands claims and generous settlements are just beginning and a new era in respect for the law has just begun. Rights are not "given" by Canadians. They are "inherent" (look up that word). And infact First Nations are outside of the Charter and no other Charter right can impinge on First Nations rights. That is fact!

[Moonbox]

Incorrect, again. The Supreme Court of Canada is governed by The Canadian Constitution above all else.

This is the dumbest thing you have said yet. You assume the Constitution is omnipotent and that Supreme Court judges are robots programmed by the Constitution. Both assumptions are incorrect. Canadians control the Constitution and can change it any time they please providing their is enough consensus. I'm pretty sure Canadians from east to west coast would have no problem doing that if the Supreme Court was going to sell them out to a bunch of whiney mooches for the sake of a scrap of paper. Of course it won't ever even come to that, because judges understand the law much better than you and would not feel compelled to follow along with the idiocy you proclaim.

The fact is that lands claims and generous settlements are just beginning and a new era in respect for the law has just begun. Rights are not "given" by Canadians. They are "inherent" (look up that word). And infact First Nations are outside of the Charter and no other Charter right can impinge on First Nations rights. That is fact!

Cold hard logic and a reasonable brain would tell you that what you say is fantasy. Sadly, you appear to possess neither. I have no doubt there will be more settlements, but when they start to actually have a noticeable impact on the average Canadian and start hurting them, you can be damn sure Canadians will push back, and the international community will laugh at the balogna claims of the First Nations. To assume we will meekly roll over and give away everything we've built over the last several hundred years is "fantasy" (look up that word).

[charter.rights]

This is the dumbest thing you have said yet. You assume the Constitution is omnipotent and that Supreme Court judges are robots programmed by the Constitution. Both assumptions are incorrect. Canadians control the Constitution and can change it any time they please providing their is enough consensus. I'm pretty sure Canadians from east to west coast would have no problem doing that if the Supreme Court was going to sell them out to a bunch of whiney mooches for the sake of a scrap of paper. Of course it won't ever even come to that, because judges understand the law much better than you and would not feel compelled to follow along with the idiocy you proclaim.

Cold hard logic and a reasonable brain would tell you that what you say is fantasy. Sadly, you appear to possess neither. I have no doubt there will be more settlements, but when they start to actually have a noticeable impact on the average Canadian and start hurting them, you can be damn sure Canadians will push back, and the international community will laugh at the balogna claims of the First Nations. To assume we will meekly roll over and give away everything we've built over the last several hundred years is "fantasy" (look up that word).

I have already put the proof on the table. All you have is a limited opinion that doesn't amount to much. If you believe it will end then put up the proof that we would be leaning that way - that Canadians don't want to settle First Nations issues and lands claim. The reality is that according to a poll in 2006, 80% of Canadians WANT the government to negotiate and find settlements on outstanding claims and issues with First Nations. 80% says a lot about your opinion eh?

And the Supreme Court is obliging because it is THE LAW. Each aboriginal issue put before the Supreme Court strengthens and clarifies the previous rulings. And in the past 10 years native rights and lands claims have been supported and government inadequacy put down. The "honour of the Crown" depends on it.

[Mr.Canada]

These people like many socialists are perpetual victims and will always whine about something.

Even if the Canadian government settled every single land claim and paid out hundreds of Billions of dollars there'd still be something they'd cry about, it never ends, the more the government gives in to these whiners the more it fuels them to keep whining.

The only wayI support this is if after they are paid hundreds of Billions of dollars they will no longer be tax free and will have to pay taxes like the rest of us and the bands get no more federal funding. Surely with Hundreds of Billions of dollars they don't need governemnt support anymore do they?

Are these people that helpless?

They don't want that though and charter.rights doesn't wantr this either as then she'd be out of a job wouldn't she?

The natives of this country will be forever helpless due to the constant handouts they recieve. No wonder most on the reserves are drug addicts or drunkards they have no motivation to do anything except ask the government for more.

And before you try to say I don't know what I'm talking about in the early 90's I used to pick up cases of cigarettes to sell in Toronto and used to go to Cornwall every month for a while to pick up more from the Mohawks who would run it across the river.

Yeah I seen a lot of messed up things some natives houses has no drywall or insulation inside them and yeah it was kind of sad. However I stopped feeling sorry for them when I realized that they would spend their days drinking and partying while they waited for their cheques and would do nothing to improve their situation.

I've been to a few reserves and it's always the same thing. I'm not saying all but many do. Go to a reserve and tell me what you see. It isn't Ma and Pa indian sitting in a teepee trying to stay warm I can assure you.

If you're in denial go take a drive one day on the weekend and see for yourself. They don't have Berlin type walls or anything anyone can drive right onto just about any reserve in Canada.

No effort = No reward.

Canadians cannot reward laziness, I'm sorry.

Edited March 4, 2010 by Mr.Canada

[Hydraboss]

<consider this a preemptive response>

Before anyone rips Mr Canada a new one over the post above, prove he's wrong.

[M.Dancer]

<consider this a preemptive response>

Before anyone rips Mr Canada a new one over the post above, prove he's wrong.

Wrong about what? He made a number of assertions....

• socialists are perpetual victims
  
• CR would be out of a job
  
• Most on reserves are drug addicts or drunkards
  
• Natives spend their days drinking and partying
  

[Moonbox]

I have already put the proof on the table. All you have is a limited opinion that doesn't amount to much.

My opinion is based on how logical and self-interested human beings would behave. Your opinion is based on fantasy.

If you believe it will end then put up the proof that we would be leaning that way - that Canadians don't want to settle First Nations issues and lands claim.

This is a perfect example of your inability to grasp simple logic. Asking me for 'proof' of future events is idiotic. That would be like me asking you to 'prove' who is going to win the next election. Your 'evidence' of the settlements has already been acknowledged. I know they've happened. I know there will be more. At the same time, however, I know that Canadians will only be willing to stomach so much. When the burden of paying out mooching whiners to shut their lazy mouths becomes too heavy, it will simply stop. I don't need proof for that, because that's simple human nature.

The reality is that according to a poll in 2006, 80% of Canadians WANT the government to negotiate and find settlements on outstanding claims and issues with First Nations. 80% says a lot about your opinion eh?

Again...your terrible logic. Of course Canadians want to negotiate and find settlements to outstanding claims. I also do. We want the First Nations to shut up and start living like normal human beings. With that said, the fact that Canadians want settlements to be made is in no way indicative of our willingness to substantiate ridiculous claims like you make in your signature.

And the Supreme Court is obliging because it is THE LAW. Each aboriginal issue put before the Supreme Court strengthens and clarifies the previous rulings. And in the past 10 years native rights and lands claims have been supported and government inadequacy put down. The "honour of the Crown" depends on it.

The honour of the Crown is meaningless trite. The Supreme Court of Canada is there to protect the rights , freedom and prosperity of Canadians. The previous rulings may help establish precedent for similar and subsequent claims around the country, but they will in no way cause the landslide of settlements you seem to be hoping and expecting. The Supreme Court can and will eventually say, "That's all you're getting." The simple fact of the matter is that no matter what your pieces of paper and Courts say, Canadians simply won't stand for giving away their future for a bunch of lazy nobodies First Nations people. In the end, we are the ultimate decision makers and the international community recognizes that.

Edited March 4, 2010 by Moonbox

[Shwa]

A clumsy dodge huh? The principles of property ownership have clearly escaped you, so I tried to simplify it for you. If the law recognizes that I own my house and nobody can use my property other than me, it is reasonable to assume that I own it. If people can only take my land by 'paying' me fairly for it, this also reinforces the idea that I 'own' it. If the legal system in Canada and Ontario uphold these rights for me, that pretty much seals the deal. That is how things work here.

The fact that I did not waste inordinate amounts of time searching the library or internet for information that was irrelevant to the truth stated above does not make me wrong. It means you are living in LALAland.

Yep, a clumsy dodge. Flimsy even. Weak. The fact is you can only cite your lofty opinion, but cannot grasp the reality of what you talk about through the instruments of jurisprudence. Instead you blather on with repetitive scatological arguments.

Really, when you have the nads to actually back up your opinion with some real Canadian law, please do. But I doubt you will. Heck I doubt you even know how to since it isn't on US television.

...nobody can use my property other than me...

[bloodyminded]

The simple fact of the matter is that no matter what your pieces of paper and Courts say, Canadians simply won't stand for giving away their future for a bunch of lazy nobodies First Nations people. In the end, we are the ultimate decision makers and the international community recognizes that.

You should get help.

[Shwa]

My opinion is based on how logical and self-interested human beings would behave. Your opinion is based on fantasy.

Limp dodge. And slightly delusional since it purports to speak for "self-interested human beings."

I know that Canadians will...

Speaks for "Canadians" now. Delusional and a little crazy.

I don't need proof for that, because that's simple human nature.

Not only does he speak for self-interested human beings, Canadians, now he is speaking on behalf of "human nature."

We want the First Nations to shut up and start living like normal human beings.

Now he speaks on behalf of all humanity because he wants FN's to be "normal" human beings as if to say that he knows what "normal" is. OMG, Moonbox is a nutcase!

The honour of the Crown is meaningless trite.

The simple fact of the matter is that no matter what your pieces of paper and Courts say, Canadians simply won't stand

The rule of law does not count for anything in Moonbox's little world. A petulant little Napolean who is going to conquer the world with his "logic" of normal, self interested human beings. Of course, I now get the reference to "moon" box as the room in which they house the lunatics.

On the other hand, it is nice to see that they are allowing the patients in the psych ward to have access to the Internet. They shouldn't be deprived. It's only delusion after all.

[bloodyminded]

Limp dodge. And slightly delusional since it purports to speak for "self-interested human beings."

Speaks for "Canadians" now. Delusional and a little crazy.

Not only does he speak for self-interested human beings, Canadians, now he is speaking on behalf of "human nature."

Now he speaks on behalf of all humanity because he wants FN's to be "normal" human beings as if to say that he knows what "normal" is. OMG, Moonbox is a nutcase!

The rule of law does not count for anything in Moonbox's little world. A petulant little Napolean who is going to conquer the world with his "logic" of normal, self interested human beings. Of course, I now get the reference to "moon" box as the room in which they house the lunatics.

On the other hand, it is nice to see that they are allowing the patients in the psych ward to have access to the Internet. They shouldn't be deprived. It's only delusion after all.

"Logic," just so!

Another good one, often asserted, is "common sense."

Edited March 4, 2010 by bloodyminded

[charter.rights]

The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms:

25. The guarantee in this Charter of certain rights and freedoms shall not be construed so as to abrogate or derogate from any aboriginal, treaty or other rights or freedoms that pertain to the aboriginal peoples of Canada including

(a) any rights or freedoms that have been recognized by the Royal Proclamation of October 7, 1763; and

( any rights or freedoms that may be acquired by the aboriginal peoples of Canada by way of land claims settlement.(15)

35. (1) The existing aboriginal and treaty rights of the aboriginal peoples of Canada are hereby recognized and affirmed.

Which means of course that the Charter does not apply to aboriginal people in the same way as it does to the rest of us. Rather it exempts aboriginal people from complying with or being restricted by the Charter elsewhere.

And of course pre-existing, and current rights are affirmed. Which means that tax status, fishing and hunting rights, territorial rights etc. cannot be tinkered with either under the Indian Act, or by Parliament without either a full constitutional amendment (which is nearly impossible given the partisan nature of Canadian politics) or "by accommodating and negotiating directly with First Nations (oops! That's what the Supreme Court of Canada says about the Crown's failure to comply with the Charter).

As we have witness in the last 20 years of jurisprudence those Charter Rights (25. and 35.) have been strengthened, expanded and further defined in favour of First Nations. That 20 year old trend has no indication of of slowing, regardless of the opinions of those who think they speak for all Canadians, and very few really have anything negative to say about it.

[Mr.Canada]

Ok so just so I have this right. Native Canadians don't have to follow any laws in Canada but they are protected by the Charter?

[charter.rights]

They are exempted from the Charter.

The Charter places a restriction on Canadians in that we cannot abrogate or derogate from any aboriginal, treaty or other rights or freedoms in the application of our own rights.

That is what was essentially captured in the Royal Proclamation 1763.

Edited March 4, 2010 by charter.rights

[Smallc]

There is nothing in law that can't be removed if necessary. Also, that doesn't say that aboriginal people are exempt from the Charter...and nothing is going to be done that doesn't meet the sniff test of Section 1.

[Mr.Canada]

There is nothing in law that can't be removed if necessary. Also, that doesn't say that aboriginal people are exempt from the Charter...and nothing is going to be done that doesn't meet the sniff test of Section 1.

Charter.rights cares about money, nothing else. All of her bluster is for one reason, getting her hands on some of that money.

This is what the native indians care about, money.

Edited March 4, 2010 by Mr.Canada

[M.Dancer]

That is what was essentially captured in the Royal Proclamation 1763.

The proclamation that says the lands belong to the Crown.

[charter.rights]

There is nothing in law that can't be removed if necessary. Also, that doesn't say that aboriginal people are exempt from the Charter...and nothing is going to be done that doesn't meet the sniff test of Section 1.

I suggest that you look up the meanings of "abrogate" and "derogate".

The Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

1. The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in it subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society.

If you understand how to read the Charter it can be interpreted like this:

Those limits prescribed by law cannot abrogate or derogate any aboriginal right.

That doesn't mean that aboriginal people are not exempt from all Canadian law (depending on the particular charges and where they occurred). But it does mean that the limits prescribed by law can be applied only as long as they do not diminish or take away from their aboriginal rights.

Take the smoking law for example. Smoking is prohibited in public places in Ontario, right? Nope. Native people can hold a pipe ceremony and burn tobacco in any room in any building anywhere in Canada and there is nothing that can be done to prohibit it. So Article 1 really is meaningless where it concerns aboriginal rights.

[charter.rights]

The proclamation that says the lands belong to the Crown.

Nope it doesn't. Read the Royal Proclamation Map 1763 that accompanied it. Indian Lands belong to the "Indians" and cannot be surrendered except to the Crown.

[M.Dancer]

Take the smoking law for example. Smoking is prohibited in public places in Ontario, right? Nope. Native people can hold a pipe ceremony and burn tobacco in any room in any building anywhere in Canada and there is nothing that can be done to prohibit it.

We don't allow pipes ceremonies in our building.

[charter.rights]

Charter.rights cares about money, nothing else. All of her bluster is for one reason, getting her hands on some of that money.

This is what the native indians care about, money.

With you obcession about money I would suggest that it is YOU that only cares about money. Perhaps having the government part with it is your real concern and you don't care about the law at all. Are you a lawless citizen Mr. Canada?

I don't care about money either. I have plenty of it that I earn. But I do care about how we as Canadians do not believe in the Charter and the rule of law. And you would be the poster boy for that deficiency.

[charter.rights]

We don't allow pipes ceremonies in our building.

You would have no choice if a native wanted to hold one there.

[Mr.Canada]

You would have no choice if a native wanted to hold one there.

That is absurd and untrue. I've never seen it or even heard of it taking place. If these natives thought that they coud do it they would've done it by now. So I call bs.