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I hear complaints about it all the time, but you don't hear politicians talking about it - ever. Even the Alliance, before it joined with the Conservatives, had backed away from immigration after the horrendous publicity they got as Reform. Reform wanted to drastically cut immigration. And, as it turned out, according to the polls, so did a whopping number of Canadians.

But because most immigrants today are visible minorities any call for a cutback or change to immigration seems to instantly draw screams of racism from the usual suspects (ie, the left, the media, assorted government paid ethnic representatives, etc.)

I have a number of problems with our present immigration system which aren't being addressed by any political party. Everyone I know does too. I don't like the flood of immigration which has changed the Canada I knew. In 1971 14% of Toronto residents were foreign born. Now it's 53% and rising. With so many immigrants coming so fast we're seeing huge communities of foreigners who never have to learn our ways or even our language. I'm not talking about the little italys of the past. I'm talking communities in the hundreds of thousands with their own malls, newspapers, tv and radio stations, businesses, etc. We're told they're Canadians, but in reality, they've never been to Canada!

You see, I *like* Canada. I think it's a nifty sort of place. I think Canadians are a pretty cool people. I don't think as much of so many foreign people who seem to violently inclined, so intolerant, bigoted, sexist, biased, warlike, and fanatically religious. I don't mind if some of them come here, blend into our communities, and learn to become like us. I do mind that there are so many they can retain their old cultures and build bigger communities year after year.

An American sports writer recently called Toronto a dirty, third world city. How much of Canada will there be in our largest city when the foreign born rise to 75%? I suppose if you love a cosmopolitan polyglot that's great. But what about those who like Canada and Canadians? Where is the soul of Canada when the foreign born outnumber us and are determined to keep their foreign cultures and value systems?

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Our Country was formed on principals of the era 1867, capitalism and Judeo Christian values. Want to come here and be an immigrant, go for it. Want to go to a country that has values more different, apply and go. I don't believe that we should cater to a newcommers expectations of what we should be for them but rather what we make it ourselves.

That said, there is nothing to stop us (meaning immigrants who are now citizens and us Canadian born) from changing laws and such to reflect differing beliefs. Only that we should not in any way cater to immigrants as they are outsiders. Remember us, we are the people and they are the strangers. When most people want something, that's the way it shuld be. If Toronto wants to be a third world Citym go for it, does the rest of Canada want it?

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If we didn't have immigration, like most western nations, are population would be on the decline.......And I for one don't think that first world nations populations should be culled, but those of the third world are another storey.

With that said, I think our immigration numbers(added to the birth rate) should be at such a level so as to equal the number of deaths, thus manitaining Canada's current population.

Also, the standards for immigration to Canada should be increased, in that potentail immigratents should be somewhat more wealthy then what we have now

Maybe 50K Cdn per head..........And I for one (and I'm a WASP) don't care what country these people come from........

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We're told they're Canadians, but in reality, they've never been to Canada!

"Never been to Canada?" What do you mean by "Canada"? Canada is a changing country and if you were to return here in 150 or 200 years, you would probably be unable to recognize it. Just as if John A Macdonald would find modern Canada unrecognizable.

More practically, this debate will not happen. Most immigrants live in Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal. There are few immigrants outside of those urban centres. For many Canadians, this is simply not a major issue.

In addition, there are many non-Anglophone "English" Canadians (we call them allophones in Quebec) who go crazy every time someone says Canada has two founding nations. These people resent WASPs and ultimately see something good in immigration.

Finally, we have imbibed the American ethos that we are a country of immigrants.

We currently accept about 250,000 people per year, or about 1% of the population. This is less than the targets set by the government. This means our total population growth is above the replacement rate.

The only plausible debate would be about the huge bureaucracy we have in place to select immigrants. Americans select their skilled immigrants by lottery.

This forum is a good thing, Argus, because it allows you to start a good thread. But it's a third rail...

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Good topic .. one that I am surprised hasn't been raised sooner. The supplanting of Marxism by Islam as the main ideology of confrontation was predicted back in 1991 and that was an accurate prediction.the way I see it. I now think that racial profiling has to become part of our immigration policy. That's not going to be politically popular but I see it as a MUST because of events since 9/11... I wonder how many people agree with me.

And new immigrants should be prepared to adapt to our customs and traditions here in Canada instead of them foisting theirs on us in our own country. Witness the RCMP today .. they, in effect, no longer have a uniform code.

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August91 is right. This isn't a major issue for most Canadians.

I now think that racial profiling has to become part of our immigration policy. That's not going to be politically popular but I see it as a MUST because of events since 9/11... I wonder how many people agree with me.

What kind of country would guarantee religious freedom for its citizens but place restrictions on the religions of those who immigrate here ?

And new immigrants should be prepared to adapt to our customs and traditions here in Canada instead of them foisting theirs on us in our own country. Witness the RCMP today .. they, in effect, no longer have a uniform code.

Not an immigration issue, but an issue of religious freedom.

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If we didn't have immigration, like most western nations, are population would be on the decline.......And I for one don't think that first world nations populations should be culled, but those of the third world are another storey.

That declining population thing is a bit of a myth. We would only need about 1/10th the immigrants we are getting now to prevent a decline. And even with no immigrants it would take us about a century just to fall back to where we were a couple of decades ago.

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We're told they're Canadians, but in reality, they've never been to Canada!

"Never been to Canada?" What do you mean by "Canada"?

I mean the Canada made up of people who grew up here, who have no cultural baggage or attachment to other nations. I mean people who, whether their ancestry is Italian, German, Ukrainian, Japanese, English or French, are pretty much "Canadian", in their attitudes, culture and value system.

Canada is a changing country and if you were to return here in 150 or 200 years, you would probably be unable to recognize it.  Just as if John A Macdonald would find modern Canada unrecognizable.

But will it be a better Canada? Or will it be a Canada of mosques and masked women, of beatings and canings and executions for heresy?

More practically,  this debate will not happen.  Most immigrants live in Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal.  There are few immigrants outside of those urban centres.  For many Canadians, this is simply not a major issue.

Uhh, where are you from? There are tons of immigrants in Ottawa, for example. There are huge numbers of immigrants throughout BC, and growing numbers in Alberta, Mannitoba and Sask.

In addition, there are many non-Anglophone "English" Canadians (we call them allophones in Quebec) who go crazy every time someone says Canada has two founding nations.  These people resent WASPs and ultimately see something good in immigration.

Well, you can all them Allophones, but they're immigrants, in reality, and of course, they want more immigrants, more of "their people" to expand "their community".

The only plausible debate would be about the huge bureaucracy we have in place to select immigrants.  Americans select their skilled immigrants by lottery.

Why would that be the only plausible debate? Let me suggest a few others. Shouldn't we cut back on the number of immigrants so that they don't threaten to overwhelm our home-grown culture and value system? Should we be more careful about the so-called refugees we let into Canada, most of whom have no identification, and who, many believe, are really economic migrants - with no job skills. Should we alter the skill and education level of immigrants? How about requiring that immigrants be able to speak English (Quebec requires they speak French before accepting them). Further, if immigrants are here to redress our aging population shouldn't we give a lot more points to younger immigrants?

And finally, the most dangerous suggestion of all: should we seek to reallign immigration targer sources back towards Europe and other White countries? Not because they've got White skin, which is not particularly important, but because their cultures, their value systems, their education, skill level, societal attitudes, etc., are far, far closer to ours. Which would mean less societal disturbance, and lead to them blending in far faster.

And if immigration is the third rail I wonder what THAT suggestion would constitute? :blink:

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Good topic .. one that I am surprised hasn't been raised sooner.  The supplanting of Marxism by Islam as the main ideology of confrontation was predicted back in 1991 and that  was an accurate prediction.the way I see it.    I now think that racial profiling has to become part of our immigration policy.  That's not going to be politically popular but I see it as a MUST  because of events since 9/11...  I wonder how many people agree with me.

A lot, probably most. But I do not think you will see it happen, at least not officially. It's true that Muslims concern me more than any other group. It's not merely the cultural baggage they bring with them either. It's the harshness of that culture and how it seems so completely opposed to our secular, tolerant society. I find their treatment of women disturbing, and the fact they back up that treatment by saying it's how God wants them to act means it's very difficult to bring change. In addition, where such studies have been made they show a troubling trend among Muslim immigrants to NOT adapt at all to their new country. In some countries, ie, Scandinavia, for example, studies have shown huge numbers of muslims return to their "home" when looking for spouses. I believe it was Denmark which showed that 95% of Turkish men who are 3rd generation immigrants still return to Turkey to get a bride. Also in Sweden, the nicname for Pakistani girls is "ticket", because when they are in their late teens they will be sent back to Pakistan to marry a Pakistani man, to "relearn their culture" for a year or two, and then will be the ticket for that man to come to Sweden.

The reason this is troubling is that even those people who don't like the culture of certain immigrant groups are content with the belief that over time their kids and grandkids will adapt and become like us. But if the majority of the Muslim community are returning to their "homes" for brides and husbands that is not going to happen. At least not to the extent we would hope. Each generation will get their old cultural attitudes reinforced. Even as more "fresh" immigrants arrive.

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August91 is right.  This isn't a major issue for most Canadians. 

It might not be as important as govenment theft, but it is important to the people I talk to. And besides, he based his belief on the erroneous assumption that immigrants are mostly in TO, Montreal and Vancouver. That is where the majority is, but there are very large numbers in all major cities now, and rising numbers in smaller centres as well.

What kind of country would guarantee religious freedom for its citizens but place restrictions on the religions of those who immigrate here ?

A country which does not want its cultural value system to be overwhelmed by a harshly conservative religious based culture? A country worried about the apparently widespread attitudes of people from Muslim countries towards Jews, terrorism, and Western values?

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A country which does not want its cultural value system to be overwhelmed by a harshly conservative religious based culture? A country worried about the apparently widespread attitudes of people from Muslim countries towards Jews, terrorism, and Western values?

It would be hypocritical and wrong to do so. The constitution guarantees that citizens won't suffer discrimination based on religion, so prospective citizens should also be free of discrimination.

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My family and I immigrated to Canada from Europe in the late 70's. My mother was the only person to speak English but the rest of us learned extremely quickly, it was a matter of survival. Going through school, we adapted quickly to the Canadian way and essentially became Canadian. We have never been on un-employment and have never used welfare. We work, pay our taxes and vote at election times. We still keep some of our traditional European customs but do not require that other do the same as us. We teach our kids those traditions but thta is more of a matter so they learn a bit about their heritage. We are all very proud Canadian citizens now. The emphasis on immigration has changed more from bringing in people who can help this country to people who this country feels it should help. I have no problem with this aside from the fact that it generally does not bring in skilled or professional people. I also feel that all immigrants should be able to speak english (or french) within a certain amount of time after immigrating. Bringing in people on a refugee status is too much of a grey area and needs to be updated. If someone "accidentally" flushed their papers on the way to Canada, then they should not be allowed to stay. They had to have papers to get unto the plane in the first place. But as stated by several people in this thread, immigration is a third rail. Anyone who is not very careful when approaching it gets fried.

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It would be hypocritical and wrong to do so.  The constitution guarantees that citizens won't suffer discrimination based on religion, so prospective citizens should also be free of discrimination.

yes but in the name of equality. A white male needs to score 86% on a police aceptance test and a brown male needs to score just 67%, no this isn't religoius disrimination, but it is racial discrimination. you say prospective citizens should be free of discrimination well what about all citizens? I ahve nothing wrong with immagrints and i ahve nothing wrong with helping them get on their feet in this new country to them, but we should not have to discriminate agaisnt are own population to accomidate them.

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A country which does not want its cultural value system to be overwhelmed by a harshly conservative religious based culture? A country worried about the apparently widespread attitudes of people from Muslim countries towards Jews, terrorism, and Western values?

It would be hypocritical and wrong to do so. The constitution guarantees that citizens won't suffer discrimination based on religion, so prospective citizens should also be free of discrimination.

Oh God, now you're really getting into a legal mess! If we start trying to give all foreigners the "benefit" of our Charter of Rights we'll make the lawyers rich and bankrupt the system.

Our immigration system should serve only one purpose; the best interest of Canada. That means it picks and chooses throughout the world for only the very best and brightest, only the people who will fit in the best and contribute the most to our society. This is a great country. We should only bring the best in to join us. Drug dealers? Murderers? Torturers? Terrorists and their supporters? Why are we letting these people come here and call themselves Canadians??! :angry:

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My family and I immigrated to Canada from Europe in the late 70's. My mother was the only person to speak English but the rest of us learned extremely quickly, it was a matter of survival. Going through school, we adapted quickly to the Canadian way and essentially became Canadian.

One of the irritating things I've read about is that the majority of kids in BC in ESL class are born in Canada. The first time they encounter English is when they're bundled off to school, and they don't know a word of it. Nor do they learn quickly. They're surrounded by adults and kids speaking Mandarin and Cantonese at home, and at school most of the people they meet are speaking the same language.

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the best interest of Canada.

One of the most irritating thing about yours posts, Argus, is that you seem to define Canada (or its best interests) in a way that is best for you. Your arguments seem to be self-serving.

Our immigration system should serve only one purpose; the best interest of Canada.
I mean the Canada made up of people who grew up here, who have no cultural baggage or attachment to other nations. I mean people who, whether their ancestry is Italian, German, Ukrainian, Japanese, English or French, are pretty much "Canadian", in their attitudes, culture and value system.

Not Icelanders, not Mexicans. What about Swedes? Danish? Russians? Croatians? How about people from the Caribbean?

It's true that Muslims concern me more than any other group. It's not merely the cultural baggage they bring with them either.
They're surrounded by adults and kids speaking Mandarin and Cantonese at home, and at school most of the people they meet are speaking the same language.

Oh, I see. It seems really that you don't like Chinese and Muslims.

Why didn't you start a thread on that. I thought we were discussing the principle of immigration to Canada.

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Oh God, now you're really getting into a legal mess! If we start trying to give all foreigners the "benefit" of our Charter of Rights we'll make the lawyers rich and bankrupt the system.

I'm saying that discrimination is wrong, whether we do it to citizens or immigrants.

Our immigration system should serve only one purpose; the best interest of Canada. That means it picks and chooses throughout the world for only the very best and brightest, only the people who will fit in the best and contribute the most to our society. This is a great country. We should only bring the best in to join us. Drug dealers? Murderers? Torturers? Terrorists and their supporters? Why are we letting these people come here and call themselves Canadians??! 

But will restricting Muslim immigration serve this purpose ? No.

The problem seems to be that you don't like certain groups. That's understandable and I'm not telling you to change. But your proposed policy changes are coming out of these feelings you have and not from any objective attempt to solve some sort of problem.

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the best interest of Canada.

One of the most irritating thing about yours posts, Argus, is that you seem to define Canada (or its best interests) in a way that is best for you. Your arguments seem to be self-serving.

Can you name me ONE individual who does not define what they think is in the best interests of Canada according to their own judgement?

It's true that Muslims concern me more than any other group. It's not merely the cultural baggage they bring with them either.
They're surrounded by adults and kids speaking Mandarin and Cantonese at home, and at school most of the people they meet are speaking the same language.

Oh, I see. It seems really that you don't like Chinese and Muslims.

Actually, there are a lot of things admirable about the Chinese, particularly their attachment to family and their interest in education. But I think when they outnumber Canadians there's a problem. As to Muslims, you're right in that I don't approve of their cultural/religious baggage. So what?

Why didn't you start a thread on that.  I thought we were discussing the principle of immigration to Canada.

One of the problems one finds in trying to discuss issues of dissaproval with immigration is reactionary, knee-jerk people who immediately start screaming about racist motivations. I don't think you really have any interest in discussing immigration. That would involve actually discussing the issues raised rather than attacking the person who raised them.

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What do you mean by 'Canadian culture and values', Argus? Canada does not have it's own culture and values. Canadian values are British and French values. Why should anyone subscribe to British and French values for getting citizenship? People come to Canada all over the world, with cultures and languages that are much older and much more diverse than those Canadian. Why should they give up their culture and adopt British/French customs?

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I'm saying that discrimination is wrong, whether we do it to citizens or immigrants.

Discrimination? I'm talking about selecting people, not based on any other criteria but what will be best for Canada, both economically and socially.

Our immigration system should serve only one purpose; the best interest of Canada. That means it picks and chooses throughout the world for only the very best and brightest, only the people who will fit in the best and contribute the most to our society. This is a great country. We should only bring the best in to join us. Drug dealers? Murderers? Torturers? Terrorists and their supporters? Why are we letting these people come here and call themselves Canadians??! 

But will restricting Muslim immigration serve this purpose ? No.

I think it will. I distrust religious extremists. I believe in a secular society.

The problem seems to be that you don't like certain groups.  That's understandable and I'm not telling you to change.  But your proposed policy changes are coming out of these feelings you have and not from any objective attempt to solve some sort of problem.

Certain issues I have with immigration are indeed based on my dissaproval for some of the immigrants coming here, and their behaviour. I love this country. I think our culture, which is best exemplified by the phrase "peace, order, and good government" isn't improved by adding in people who have no respect for our values and who choose not to embrace them. Someone told me the other day that the French and the English should stop fighting because the official languages of Canada in fifty years are going to be Chinese and Arabic. Now I don't think that's so, at least not in that time line. But that IS my concern. Their numbers are rising too fast.

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I think it will. I distrust religious extremists. I believe in a secular society.

FYKI, 'secular' means embracing all religions and cultures or something that does not relate to any religion/culture. You seem to be the opposite.

Someone told me the other day that the French and the English should stop fighting because the official languages of Canada in fifty years are going to be Chinese and Arabic. Now I don't think that's so, at least not in that time line. But that IS my concern. Their numbers are rising too fast.

Well, I'm sure that the Native americans thought the same way about early 'Canadians'.

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What do you mean by 'Canadian culture and values', Argus? Canada does not have it's own culture and values.

This is simply insulting to all Canadians. You're essentially saying there is no such thing as a Canadian except as a legal declaration on a form. I grew up in this country, along with some millions of others, and the cultural values and traditions and history which bind us together makes us a people. You don't think there's anything about us that makes us a people that are worth preserving?

People come to Canada all over the world, with cultures and languages that are much older and much more diverse than those Canadian. Why should they give up their culture and adopt British/French customs?

Because this is OUR country. We built it into something great while they were, by and large, building sh*tholes of violence, poverty,misery, hatred, ignorance and religious extremism with their "older more diverse cultures". And I don't want people who subscribe to those failed cultures to swamp ours. I want them to become more like us, not us to become more like the sh*tholes they left behind.

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Someone told me the other day that the French and the English should stop fighting because the official languages of Canada in fifty years are going to be Chinese and Arabic.
Exactly. It could happen.
Well, I'm sure that the Native americans thought the same way about early 'Canadians'.
Did they? Has it happened?

This thing called "Canada" (the pink part on the map) is a changing entity. Take where you live, go back several thousand years, and then come to the present in your mind, thinking about the various people who walked on the land where you live.

We all know people came here first by Siberia/Alaska several thousands years ago. They "claimed" the land. Then Europeans came, and the French primarily "claimed" the land, from St-Louis to Portage-la-Prairie. Then the English came, defeated the French and "claimed" the land for the British Crown

Now others come. And to claim a small piece of land, a semi-detached with 40 ft frontage, they must pay a market price. These immigrants are not thieves, they are paying thieves.

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I think it will. I distrust religious extremists. I believe in a secular society.

FYKI, 'secular' means embracing all religions and cultures or something that does not relate to any religion/culture. You seem to be the opposite.

A secular society means one not affected by the various religious notions of its inhabitants, where you can shop on Sunday even if it bugs the Christians, go to movies on Saturdays even if it bugs the Jews, and let women walk around showing their navels even if it gives the Muslims apoplexy. And a society like that doesn't exist when you have too many people who insist that they live their lives according to God's will. Right now most Christians, and Jews, btw, are fairly laid back about their religion. Most Muslims, especially newcome, are far, far from that.

Someone told me the other day that the French and the English should stop fighting because the official languages of Canada in fifty years are going to be Chinese and Arabic. Now I don't think that's so, at least not in that time line. But that IS my concern. Their numbers are rising too fast.

Well, I'm sure that the Native americans thought the same way about early 'Canadians'.

And what? They were wrong? Maybe if enough of them HAD thought that early enough they wouldn't be sitting on reserves wondering what happened to their country, huh?

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This is simply insulting to all Canadians. You're essentially saying there is no such thing as a Canadian except as a legal declaration on a form.

You tell me, how is being Canadian significantly different from being British? I have lived in the UK, and except for the difference in the accent, there isn't much difference between us. And that's obvious, since all Canadians (or most of them) are essentially of British and French origin.

Because this is OUR country. We built it into something great while they were, by and large, building sh*tholes of violence, poverty,misery, hatred, ignorance and religious extremism with their "older more diverse cultures". And I don't want people who subscribe to those failed cultures to swamp ours. I want them to become more like us, not us to become more like the sh*tholes they left behind.

Your generalisation, besides being terribly wrong, also displays your ignorance of world history. No country every built a shithole for itself. Throughout history, the countries with better weapons and more power colonised other countries, and the reason that most of the developed world is 'developed' today is because generations back, they looted the wealth of weaker Asian countries, which were culturally much more advanced than Europeans, but militarily lagged behind.

For example, you don't like Chinese people. But the Chinese had their own empires when Europeans were only nomads.

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