CTF considering Suing McGuinty and His Lying Gover

[Common Sense]

The Canadian Taxpayers Federation is seriously considering suing ( I sure hope they do ) McGuinty and his lying bunch of Fiberals for breaking the laws of Ontario and PROVING that they haven't got a clue on how to manage the affairs of this Province. What a hopeless bunch of Pinnochios and we are stuck with this band of LIARS for four freakin years. The retired folks on fixed incomes are going to take a huge hit on their monthly pension cheaques to the tune of around $2,000 per year minimum plus the cost of living rising because of more taxes on energy costs and on and on..Incompetent is too kind a word to describe this hopeless gang!!

[BigGunner]

Do the taxpayers get to sue Ernie Eves for leaving the province with a $5.6 billion deficit while proclaiming a surplus?

Liars are Liars, and lies told by your enemies don't make the lies told by your friends any less wrong.

[Hugo]

It is not because he lied but because there is a law in Ontario called the Taxpayers Protection Act, which basically states that tax increases need to be approved by referendum. McGuinty has boldly stated that he will ignore this in his tax hike and will give Ontarians a chance to voice their opinions on this four years later in the provincial elections.

In short, it's statist, undemocratic, insufferably arrogant and illegal. Lying is one thing, breaking the law is another.

[BigGunner]

It is not because he lied but because there is a law in Ontario called the Taxpayers Protection Act, which basically states that tax increases need to be approved by referendum. McGuinty has boldly stated that he will ignore this in his tax hike and will give Ontarians a chance to voice their opinions on this four years later in the provincial elections.

In short, it's statist, undemocratic, insufferably arrogant and illegal. Lying is one thing, breaking the law is another.

Sorry to rain on your parade, but Ontario's "Taxpayer Protection Act" is provincial legislation and as such can be repealed by the legislature...I suspect McGuinty will do that....making his tax increases perfectly legal.

Changing laws to make previously illegal acts perfecly legal is nothing new with Liberals...we have discovered that the hard way in BC.

[August1991]

Sorry to rain on your parade, but Ontario's "Taxpayer Protection Act" is provincial legislation and as such can be repealed by the legislature.

I agree.

This is a publicity stunt of the CTF. I suspect they are still in a state of shock about the Supreme Court decision and they are seeking ways around the spending curb.

[Bro]

Do the taxpayers get to sue Ernie Eves for leaving the province with a $5.6 billion deficit .

If you are going to criticize Ernie and the conservatives,

do more than read one newspaper which you know will support your left leaning philosophy.

As for Dalton,8 years as opposition LEADER and he didn't know the financial state of the province?Even after his hired team of auditors{taxpayers expense],told him the real figures.

He lied to get in power.Each day the lies continue, and the deficit he was left with escalates on a daily basia,depending on which promise he wants to break on a particular day.

[BigGunner]

Do the taxpayers get to sue Ernie Eves for leaving the province with a $5.6 billion deficit .

If you are going to criticize Ernie and the conservatives,

do more than read one newspaper which you know will support your left leaning philosophy.

As for Dalton,8 years as opposition LEADER and he didn't know the financial state of the province?Even after his hired team of auditors{taxpayers expense],told him the real figures.

He lied to get in power.Each day the lies continue, and the deficit he was left with escalates on a daily basia,depending on which promise he wants to break on a particular day.

I could care less about Dalton McGuinty, but I can appreciate the rage of alot of Ontarians for it.

You get what you vote for, and if Ontario voters chose one liar because they were tired of the lies of the other guy, then they still elected a liar.

Brilliant....

One lied to stay in power, the other lied to gain it. Who's lies are better? If Eves had won, he'd be red-faced over the sudden disappearance of his fairy-tale surplus and be forced into even more cuts in health and education or tax increases, to fund a surplus that was never there.

Breaking promises and telling lies to get elected is a trademark of the Liberal party..

Chretien: Kill the GST

McGuilty: No tax increases

Campbell: We won't sell BC Rail

*****

Like the Freudian slip?

[Michael Hardner]

Chretien: Kill the GST

McGuilty: No tax increases

Campbell: We won't sell BC Rail

We've been lied to by all the parties and I'm getting kind of fed up over it.

Maybe this furor will dampen the enthusiasm for telling tall tales on the campaign trail.

[Argus]

Do the taxpayers get to sue Ernie Eves for leaving the province with a $5.6 billion deficit while proclaiming a surplus?

Liars are Liars, and lies told by your enemies don't make the lies told by your friends any less wrong.

There is some doubt about just how high this debt actually was. The guy the Libs brought in for an "independant" assessment said it was $5.6b, but the Tories and some observers said otherwise. But even the "unbiased" report cited the terrible year Ontario had last year in terms of SARS, Mad Cow, and the Blackout as adding perhaps a billion to a billion and a half to the deficit. You can't really blame the Tories for that. Second, he added, I believe $800M to the deficit because the Tories had counted in this money from the feds, but it hadn't yet been approved. Since the report the money was, in fact, approved. Actually I think the feds gave $1.2B, rather than the $800m. So this year, even if you believe the report, the deficit should have been down to about $2.8B. The tories had claimed they were going to sell assets worth about $2b, but never mind Let's accept a $2.8B deficit for this year.

The Liberals claim it as $8.5B. Huh? How did that happen? Well, they've loaded in all kinds of things in order to make the debt appear larger than it is. Ontario Hydro's debt, for example, was loaded in, as was debt for school boards. The plan was to create a crisis so they would then be able to justify massive tax increases and abandoning many if not most of their promises.

As for the CTF and a possible law suit. Unlike other candidates, McGuinty actually went to the CTF offices, and in front of all the cameras, grandly signed a promise not to raise taxes, or, if in some unforeseen emergency he had to, to hold a referendum. The document he signed also promised to abide by the taxpayer protection act.

I think this is a bit different from the usual Liberal lies. He signed, in effect, a contract with the CTF and then ignored it. I think what the CTF is going to do is ask the court to require he fulfil the promise to hold a referendum before raising taxes.

[Argus]

If Eves had won, he'd be red-faced over the sudden disappearance of his fairy-tale surplus and be forced into even more cuts in health and education or tax increases, to fund a surplus that was never there.

About these cuts to health care... can you tell me just how much smaller the health care budget was his last year as opposed to his first year in office? People often talk about how he "gutted" health care. In fact, the health care budget was much larger in his last year than it was when he took office. Ontario pays more for health care than almost anyone in the world. I think, aside from the US, where much of the money goes to profits for insurance companies, there are about two or perhaps three countries on Earth where they pay more for health care. When the Tories took over health care spending consumed just under 32% of Ontario's public-program spending. Over the course of their term of office it rose to 43% (now 46%). In the foreseeable future it will rise to 60% or more. And all people can see to do is SPEND MORE MONEY! No one can propose any changes in service delivery without offending the public health sector unions or the left, which treats the Canada Health Act like the Holy Bible (or perhaps the Koran as the Left has little respect for the Bible).

In any event, the only actual cuts were made by - LIBERALS! By Paul Martin and Jean Chretien, who, year after year, slashed transfer payments to the provinces which were meant for health and education. And yet, few accuse Paul Martin of "gutting" health care. He took billions from the budget and spent it on sponsorships, bomardier airplanes and gun registration. Why does Harris get all the blame?

[phgnome]

McGuinty's such a spineless liar. Even when he was opposition, he did NOTHING.

Now, he's just doing everything to cater to the whims of the unions and adding to the inflation in the province, and at the end of the day, in the country.

I read an article the day the budget was released. You know how his government claims that it's "spending more on education"? Where's all that money going? I read a quote from a source in the Elementary Teachers Federation. The quote said something like they (still) need more funding now to get books for the kids! WTF?!? You mean this $800 million more being spent on education is NOT going towards books?

So, what McGuinty's actually doing is throwing more money towards the teachers unions -- increasing pay WHILE they get a smaller class size, WHILE there are now TWO education professionals to the classroom. Where the hell is this going to stop???

I was in Earl Haig junior high in Toronto a little over a year ago. I couldn't believe what this school was equipped with! It was opulent.

What the hell is being done with our tax dollars? Teacher's Pet Jellyfish McGuinty can kiss my arse. It infuriates me that he lets them blackmail our system like that. I was no big fan of Ernie Eves either but at least he had backbone. McGuinty's got absolutely no backbone and those without backbone shouldn't be in political office.

[Common Sense]

Do the taxpayers get to sue Ernie Eves for leaving the province with a $5.6 billion deficit while proclaiming a surplus?

Liars are Liars, and lies told by your enemies don't make the lies told by your friends any less wrong.

Ernie Eves did NOT LIE Like the Fiberals do. The $5.6Billion is also a lie. McGuilty had access to the books long long before any election so cut the crap about the Tories who will be back next election. Thank God. NDP and Fiberals are a disaster!!

PS Was there a deficit? Yes. Was it $5.6 Billion? NO !! Not even close! Also When the Tories regained power they inherited a humungous deficit from the Fiberals and thery reduced it big time. So what are these lying bastard Fiberals doing? INCREASING IT !!

[idealisttotheend]

I wonder if instead of arguing over whether there was or wasn't a surplus, (again) it wouldn't make more sense for budget numbers to be released by a non-partisan body in every provincial juristiction and at the federal level. That way budget decisions would be made at the political level but everyone would have the same numbers to work with instead of fighting over how much there really is or isn't?

[August1991]

it wouldn't make more sense for budget numbers to be released by a non-partisan body in every provincial juristiction and at the federal level.

Ideal, your suggestion is admirable but naive beyond belief.

Ideal, go to a good library and get a book titled "The Triumph of Politics" written by someone named David Stockman. Spend about a thirty minutes or so flipping through it. If it's interesting, borrow the book and read it through.

David Stockman was Ronald Reagan's budget chief. The book is about his experience. The US government is so large that no one person really knows what goes on. There are many different perfectly legitimate ways to present the numbers.

I haven't read a better book about the government budgeting process. It's also a good read on the basics of US politics.

[idealisttotheend]

Ideal, your suggestion is admirable but naive beyond belief.

This from the great defender of math as all things holy.

I see your point and don't intend to argue that there is a 'right' number, only there should be a generally accepted number. If one looks at Martin/Day's famously consistant low ball surplus projections (hey look we found an extra 6 billion we must be doing a great job), the controversy over how to book 'liquified' government assets in Ontario or resource revenue projections in Alberta... I think that it is fairly obvious that one standard would be ideal (as in the corporate world). This standard could be agreed upon in a debate in the legislature and if it ought to be changed then it could be again debated in the legislature.

I see little political value in arguing over accounting methods to determine how much of a surplus there is or isn't. It is also confusing to average Joe Citizen who comes to the conclusion that the government is so stupid they don't even know how much money they have or don't have. I think it would be better to do the numbers from an agreed upon consistant standard (which would indeed be complicated I admit) and then restrict the political debate to how to or not to spend that money.

I will read the book though as soon as I can get to the library.

[takeanumber]

Participatory democracy is in trouble.

There needs to be some way to hold the liars to account in between elections.

Either that, or turn up the frequency of elections to once every 2 years.

It would be cheaper in the long run.

[August1991]

I see your point and don't intend to argue that there is a 'right' number, only there should be a generally accepted number.

I thought of GAAP. Then I thought of 'value'. Then I thought of bond rating agencies. And finally I thought that you're right.

In Canada, taxpayers should pay for a clear report about how much the federal and other (provincial, municipal) governments buy (salaries, stuff) and how they finance this through tax income, borrowing from the public and, in the case of the feds, borrowing from the Bank of Canada.

Why not another (ugh) special committee - or let the A-G do this. Why not an independent, annual report stating income/payments and assets/liabilities. (The left will say that government is not a business...) IMV, they're right in one sense. Interest payments on debt should not be included in government payments.

We need "independent auditors" (accountants, economists) to decide this, even if they are political appointees like the "Supreme Court". In fact, the auditors should have the same status as the Nine Judges. I know this is highly political. Well, government budgets now matter in every day life - just as court decisions mattered in the lives of the rich hundreds of years ago. We need to know the "situation".

Next up? An independent environmental agency with taxation powers. (The Bank of Canada gets this independence - why not the environment?)