Aborignial challenges - social, political, and legal?

[PocketRocket]

The Indian Act.

....Which has evolved over the years, and continues to do so. But this hardly touches on day-to-day living. The friends I spoke of earlier have gone through their lives taking, quite literally, no notice of anything in the act, but have been smart enough to avail themselves of the advantages provided for them by the act.

Funny. In my 50 something years I have never heard the term "whitey" used by a native or other visible minority. I have daily contact with natives from a number of communities, as well as frequent discussions withCanadians of all backgrounds. What I have heard and read is that term used by those who claim to be white Anglo-European males in an attempt to justify their own racism against minorities on countless occasions. So I believe that you are absolutely wrong, here....

Overrepresented in crime because the cops focus on FNS and whitey practically gets away with murder...

Evidently you've not read through the entire thread.

If you are not bilingual then you are not qualified for many government jobs. If you want to get into government then I suggest taking French as a second language. But don't blame the French or other bilingual people for your laziness. If a skill is required to do a job, and you don't have (or won't get it) then you are not qualified for the job. Period.

Yes, I can see how driving a snowplow would require two languages.

A second language would be equally important to someone who walks down the street stuffing mail into your mailbox.

The reality is that his land was never empty, waiting for "discovery" and when the Spanish,French and the British explorers came here they would not have survived without the knowledge and help of indigenous people. The vast trade networks for furs and other resources had already been established - north, south and east, west - and all early imperialists did was interfere with it and bring their wars and disputes here to fight over. From my knowledge of history, the damage our ancestors did by coming here and interfering with native people far outweighs the benefits they received.

My point was not that this land was "vacant", the point was that in a time of colonization and expansion of empires, SOMEONE was bound to come here and set down roots. In a land with no organized government or military, it was bound to happen. Spain and Portugal had already taken South and Middle America and were working their way north, bringing their violent, genocidal version of Catholicism with them.

I mean if we did them such "favours" how come they live in third world conditions in many places in Canada and the US; don't have clean drinking water; we underfund their health system and education system by 50-90%; we under-employ them and jail them far more than any other Canadian? We are self-serving, not benevolent.

I never claimed we did them "favors". I asked for a cite to back up a claim that had been made in the post I was addressing. Go back, look again, then reply in context.

This is an incorrect assumption. The historical fact is that the British were quick to make friends with the Iroquois because their early encounters with them proved they could not defeat them in conflict. And any such invasion, would have been met with an equally powerful rebellion. While steel and gunpowder did have its advantages initially, it wasn't long before the Iroquois had guns and powder, and man for man, they were more cunning and strategic then the highest ranking General. So we made treaties with them that helped the colonization of the Americas.

Rather than arguing your assertion that my assumption is incorrect, I'll let this one lay, if you will, as such speculation would be futile. It would simply be the two of us going round in circles until doomsday.

Don't underestimate native people, either. 25 Mohawk warriors held off 2500 troops at Oka in the 90's - 1 to 100 ratio. And while the ultimate goal was a peaceful resolution, the act of defiance stands tall in the history books. As for some history, there has never been a successful raid or attack on the Iroquois warriors and so I would considered them to be as much of a threat to our "progress" as you pretend we are to them.

And do you seriously think they would have held off the troops if there had been an actual order to attack???

This is not only presently incorrect, it is historically inaccurate. Propaganda.

In its entire history, Canada has been inflicting genocidal policies on aboriginals in a continuing attempt to steal land and resources. Every action from the Riel Rebellion, to the Indian Act, to the Residential Schools, to Stephen Harper's apology have been calculated to advance the Canadian agenda of assimilation or elimination.

You seem to have totally missed the word "misguided", which I used in that paragraph.

"Trying" whilst using means which are not appropriate is still "trying". Hence the word "misguided".

"It's for their own good". People actually believed themselves when they said that. Arrogant bastards, I'll grant that, and the type that provide the pavement for the proverbial road to hell.

It is evident that you could not enter into such a discussion, because well...your type of thinking IS the problem. And until you recognize that you are part of the problem (and not the solution) any discussion would be fruitless.

Why does everyone on this board take everything at face value, and in such stark black-and-white ways??? I made it plain at the beginning of this post that I was posting for sake of debate as the post I addressed had been begging, literally, for rebuttal for several days, and yet been left untouched.

As an individual I am far more open-minded than most, and am more than willing to educate myself further on any matter which I enter into.

I would say that the most progress could be made by people from BOTH sides of the debate who are also willing to look at the issue FROM BOTH SIDES.

None of my native friends believe they are owed a quality of life. But if we believe that we are a just society, then we should acknowledge that WE OWE everyone a basic quality if life.

I am in absolute agreement with this.

We could start by ensuring that children eat, drink clean water, have clothes and a roof over their heads, have access to decent education, and are able to access the social safety net, just like everyone else.

Again, I agree absolutely.

Jails are overpopulated by aboriginal people for a reason. They neither have equal access to lawyers or are treated (or charged) on the same basis as ordinary Canadians. They are not more unlawful, statistically, but we have criminalized their protests and forced them into the system in order to defend their guaranteed rights under the Charter. No, we have increased aboriginal populations in prisons because they get in our way of development and destruction of habitat and their rights represent a mere blip in the corporate good.

Please provide a cite to back this up.

A native friend often uses this analogy when discussing our society.

"The justice system that Canada beats natives down with is really the "just us" system."

I find that revealing and truthful.

I suppose the perceived truthfulness of this would depend on the individual.

So if you want to get into any discussion, the first place to start is to acknowledge your being part of the overall problem, and how we can help improve matters so YOU can see the real problem. Otherwise, the discussion is moot, and we will just carrying on with your myths as the theme to your Canadian existence.

Ah yes, the familiar cry of many people who are faced with an opposing viewpoint, "You're part of the problem".

So how did you identify that these people were "aboriginal". Did you ask for their status card? Did you flip them over and see if their asses were tanned more than yours? Did you ask them where they came from and why they were on the streets of Sudbury. How do you know?

Some of our native people are as easily identifiable as an African American. In the case of a few others, when refusing the favors which were asked, I was berated as being "Racist against Natives".

This illustrates your backward thinking. Native people do not get "free education" They get, subsidy, bursaries and loans just like we do. Some native people have access to a collective fund that "assists" them in obtaining a post-secondary education, but it is not free any more than the scholarships, burseries, foundations and daddy's wealth makes education "free" for us.

I was informed all post secondary education was free for native peoples. Admittedly, I had not verified this before posting. I'll research that further when I have time. For the moment, I'll concede the point with an apology for posting something on which I am not fully informed

So is your point that they don't deserve "nice homes" or that there is an advantage for them to live on the reserve? If it is the latter, then we can open that can of worms at a later time. There isn't enough white space here to even touch on it.

On the contrary, I am very happy for them. In fact, I helped wiring one of their houses during construction, which I would certainly not have done if I held any grudge.

My point was that these two guys have used the best of both systems to their benefit and made a very good life for themselves, and that there is no reason why many, if not all, others cannot do the same.

[PocketRocket]

Again, please cite examples of propaganda glorifying whites and their "favors" to aboriginals

Ok, I'll cite you. In the very next paragraph of your "rebuttal" no less!

No matter how bad things are, they can always be worse.

Perhaps you'd care to explain how that sentence is propaganda lauding the white man for favors to Aboriginals???

Personally, I see it as a statement of fact applicable to all people in all walks of life.

Here is another one that satisfies the request in plural:

...but Canada has TRIED to do right by Aboriginals...

Evidently you missed the line in that paragraph that pointed out that many of the "tries" were misguided, the implication being that they caused harm. My bad for not clarifying more fully as you're not the only one who took umbrage with that sentence.

So not only are you a victim of your own crapulence, you wallow in it too.

Good grief. Or in the immortal words of that wise sage Bugs Bunny, "What a maroon."

Two thumbs up for quoting Bugs. He's always been one of my favorites.

But to counter quote, for taking a couple sentences out of context, I have to address you with a line from the same cartoon......what a gulli-bull.

[Griz]

There is still a lot of beautiful land in Canada for them to be able to practise their culture, to some degree. As I said earlier, their rights to practise their culture doesn't trump Canadian law. So within the bounds of the law, they can practise their culture freely. We have SO many naturally beautiful places (tons of national parks, for example) in Canada where they can practise many of their cultural traditions if they so desire. None of this overrides my main argument - that integration will benefit everyone. They will upgrade themselves by taking advantage of all Canada has to offer, and Canada will benefit by integrating a group of people who have so much to offer and contribute. Win win win. Of course, extremists on the left would prefer to perpetuate the status quo, the only difference being allowing the current system to bleed even more money from the Canadian economy to perpetuate the victimhood of Aboriginals.

^{So if you throw a spear, use a canoe and kayak, become an expert archery, be like Bear Grylls and Survivorman...are you a recreationalist, or are you an assimilated indian?}

[Griz]

....Which has evolved over the years, and continues to do so. But this hardly touches on day-to-day living. The friends I spoke of earlier have gone through their lives taking, quite literally, no notice of anything in the act, but have been smart enough to avail themselves of the advantages provided for them by the act.

There are many FNS people who live off reserve--75% in total. Some FNS have done very well, others struggle. Some may actually visibly appear FNS while others don't. It is my belief that it is a personal issue one that is far too senstive for some to even discuss. I don't know who your friends are, but my "hats off to them" if they know how to fair well in different situations in the white and indian world. Please don't try to make an assumption on the impacts of the Indian Act because in many situations it is sad. I always said, if the Indians have it so good on the reserve and whiteman virtually holds all the political power, than why don't they just make everything into a reserve? And create the White Act and the Federal Department of White Guy Affairs? This will give you all the so-called benefits and privileges of being an indian. I still find it interesting that people bitch about all the so-called riches and money that reserves have yet there's all that poverty and 3 rd world conditions. What the hell is wrong with you people? This ties into my propagande a points...what you see and hear in the media and reality are 2 different matters

Yes, I can see how driving a snowplow would require two languages.

A second language would be equally important to someone who walks down the street stuffing mail into your mailbox.

My point was not that this land was "vacant", the point was that in a time of colonization and expansion of empires, SOMEONE was bound to come here and set down roots. In a land with no organized government or military, it was bound to happen. Spain and Portugal had already taken South and Middle America and were working their way north, bringing their violent, genocidal version of Catholicism with them.

Here you suffer from what historians call "present-mindedness." There's no way of knowing what "may have," or "could have," or "should have happened" so don't even go there. All your points, definitely show ethnocentric bias and examples of how the education system has created brainwashed individuals in this society

I never claimed we did them "favors". I asked for a cite to back up a claim that had been made in the post I was addressing. Go back, look again, then reply in context.

Rather than arguing your assertion that my assumption is incorrect, I'll let this one lay, if you will, as such speculation would be futile. It would simply be the two of us going round in circles until doomsday.

And do you seriously think they would have held off the troops if there had been an actual order to attack???

The saddest part of the Oka crisis to me anyways, was when Mohawk women and children and elders were crossing the Mercier bridge and were pelted with rocks as the cops and army watched. As for the army part, no they probably wouldn't have been able to take on or hold off the troops, and some people believe they were trying to get the Mohawks to fire first so Canada could say they went to war with the indians and won

You seem to have totally missed the word "misguided", which I used in that paragraph.

"Trying" whilst using means which are not appropriate is still "trying". Hence the word "misguided".

"It's for their own good". People actually believed themselves when they said that. Arrogant bastards, I'll grant that, and the type that provide the pavement for the proverbial road to hell.

Why does everyone on this board take everything at face value, and in such stark black-and-white ways??? I made it plain at the beginning of this post that I was posting for sake of debate as the post I addressed had been begging, literally, for rebuttal for several days, and yet been left untouched.

As an individual I am far more open-minded than most, and am more than willing to educate myself further on any matter which I enter into.

I would say that the most progress could be made by people from BOTH sides of the debate who are also willing to look at the issue FROM BOTH SIDES.

I commend you on this and when you learn the truth, pease spread your new found land oopps I mean newfoundknowledge to the conservative narrowminded little kid thinkers of this world

I am in absolute agreement with this.

Again, I agree absolutely.

Please provide a cite to back this up.

I suppose the perceived truthfulness of this would depend on the individual.

Ah yes, the familiar cry of many people who are faced with an opposing viewpoint, "You're part of the problem".

Some of our native people are as easily identifiable as an African American. In the case of a few others, when refusing the favors which were asked, I was berated as being "Racist against Natives".

I was informed all post secondary education was free for native peoples. Admittedly, I had not verified this before posting. I'll research that further when I have time. For the moment, I'll concede the point with an apology for posting something on which I am not fully informed

This is another example of how hatred is spread against indians on some bogus propaganda. Yes there is funding but it is not easily accessible to all who want it. In the mid 80s the Indian Act and Bill C-31 came into effect but bands didn't receive an increase in funding to accomodate the new members. This caused a lot of static. There is a lot of favortism in bands and if you're not on the chiefs and councils' "favorite-list" then your out-of-luck. In another thread I asked posters whose names start with "A" "T" "D" etc to discuss the first 12 years of "free education" given to all Canadians...not a peep from them. When one looks at all the negative crap created from false pretences and accompanying BS, in the forms of racism, discrimination, etc from so-callled professionals like some teachers, professors, doctors, cops, politicians etc ect the indians have paid dearly for all this so-called freebies on the reserves

On the contrary, I am very happy for them. In fact, I helped wiring one of their houses during construction, which I would certainly not have done if I held any grudge.

My point was that these two guys have used the best of both systems to their benefit and made a very good life for themselves, and that there is no reason why many, if not all, others cannot do the same.

[Oleg Bach]

The most powerful people on earth all made their money selling addictive substance. Three generations later their offspring run the show - In the begining the Indians were conquered with alcohol - much like the Irish labouring men that built our oringinal infrastructures...Not getting all Muslim on yah - but...Someone should set the Aboriginals straight and continually mention - it was booze that screwed the first nations people - it was booze that screwed our white trash - and now it is booze and dope that is destroying what is considered the useless eaters...It's really quite disloyal to destroy the grand children of the people that laboured and granted you your original wealth...intergenerational gratefulness might be a good thing to stimulate...If it were not for the assistance the whites got from the aboriginals to begin with there would be no empire.

[Shwa]

"No matter how bad things are, they can always be worse"

+

Perhaps you'd care to explain how that sentence is propaganda lauding the white man for favors to Aboriginals???

Propaganda in the sense that you have made a public statement that is grossly misleading and injurious to Aboriginal causes. You are comparing a bad situation using a non-existant alternative. Let's compare the state of the world with, say, Bizarro World. Hmmm, things sure look worse in Bizarro World!

...but Canada has TRIED to do right by Aboriginals...

So you think that forced changes to subsistence, force removals to reserves, forced removal of children, residential schools, restrictions on political, social and economic freedoms, etc. ad nauseam is trying "to do right?" Hmmmm...

Perhaps it might be more useful if you spend less time worrying about people taking a couple of your sentences out of context and more time trying to put your opinions in a Canadian historical context including the recent privledges of "Indians" in Canada to vote and access post-secondary education.

[PocketRocket]

Propaganda in the sense that you have made a public statement that is grossly misleading and injurious to Aboriginal causes. You are comparing a bad situation using a non-existant alternative. Let's compare the state of the world with, say, Bizarro World. Hmmm, things sure look worse in Bizarro World!

You cite Bizarro, you cite Bugs Bunny. You must have a penchant for fantasy fiction because the single line "No matter how bad things are, they can always be worse" in no way praises the white man for his efforts on the Aboriginal's behalf. In fact, it acknowledges the fact that things ARE bad, and in context of the paragraph from which it was taken, implies that this is due to the incursion of Europeans.

Perhaps some more realistic reading than Bugs and Bizarro would bring you down to earth a bit.

So you think that forced changes to subsistence, force removals to reserves, forced removal of children, residential schools, restrictions on political, social and economic freedoms, etc. ad nauseam is trying "to do right?" Hmmmm...

You've already attacked that particular line, and I've already responded. You've not acknowledged that response, but simply attack the same line again???

Poor play, my friend.

If you want to debate a point, then please do so. If you simply want to try score cheap points, then you're wasting my time.

Perhaps it might be more useful if you spend less time worrying about people taking a couple of your sentences out of context and more time trying to put your opinions in a Canadian historical context including the recent privledges of "Indians" in Canada to vote and access post-secondary education.

Perhaps it might be more useful if you stopped deliberately taking things out of context for no better reason than trying to score cheap points.

Perhaps it might be more useful if you stop trying to put your words into my mouth.

Perhaps it might be more useful if you actually READ what you are responding to, and the replies to those responses, rather than continuing to pick on the same feeble point like a little kid who cannot stop picking their nose.

Better yet, come up with a reply that is on par with what GRIZ posted, which I will be replying to next.

Edited November 29, 2009 by PocketRocket

[PocketRocket]

First off, Griz, this is, I believe, our first exchange of views.

Before I start I want to say this is a great post. You got all your points across respectfully. You addressed my post intelligently, and without any personal attacks.

If all posters behaved this way, this forum would truly be a pleasure.

....Which has evolved over the years, and continues to do so. But this hardly touches on day-to-day living. The friends I spoke of earlier have gone through their lives taking, quite literally, no notice of anything in the act, but have been smart enough to avail themselves of the advantages provided for them by the act.

There are many FNS people who live off reserve--75% in total. Some FNS have done very well, others struggle. Some may actually visibly appear FNS while others don't. It is my belief that it is a personal issue one that is far too senstive for some to even discuss. I don't know who your friends are, but my "hats off to them" if they know how to fair well in different situations in the white and indian world. Please don't try to make an assumption on the impacts of the Indian Act because in many situations it is sad.

My hat's off to them, too, as I made plain in a earlier post.

Regarding my assumptions on the impacts of the act, you're absolutely correct. Obviously it's impacts are felt differently by different people, and I have to agree that I cannot judge what those effects may be on all those different individuals. My error was in seeing several successful transitions from reserve life to the mainstream, and drawing broad conclusions from them, a mistake I'll try not to repeat. I accept your correction. Good point, well spoken.

I'm getting some education here, from you as well as others, and I appreciate information which is new to me.

I always said, if the Indians have it so good on the reserve and whiteman virtually holds all the political power, than why don't they just make everything into a reserve? And create the White Act and the Federal Department of White Guy Affairs? This will give you all the so-called benefits and privileges of being an indian. I still find it interesting that people bitch about all the so-called riches and money that reserves have yet there's all that poverty and 3 rd world conditions. What the hell is wrong with you people? This ties into my propagande a points...what you see and hear in the media and reality are 2 different matters

"The White Guy Act". We have it already, it's called the Constitution.

As for the department in charge, it's called Parliament, and as departments go, it's pretty sad .

As for the media, that is where I've got most of the negative information about reserves. On a few CBC news programs which spring to memory, there were investigations into many reserve-based problems. Everything from lack of good water, housing issues, sewage issues, substance-abuse issues, etc etc etc.

Most of the information on reserves that I get from the media reflects only the negatives. I cannot recall a single news or affairs program that came out saying "reserve life is wonderful", only the contrary. So, from that viewpoint, at least SOME of the "propaganda" has actually been in your favor.

My point was not that this land was "vacant", the point was that in a time of colonization and expansion of empires, SOMEONE was bound to come here and set down roots. In a land with no organized government or military, it was bound to happen. Spain and Portugal had already taken South and Middle America and were working their way north, bringing their violent, genocidal version of Catholicism with them.

Here you suffer from what historians call "present-mindedness." There's no way of knowing what "may have," or "could have," or "should have happened" so don't even go there.

The same could be said of those Native people who claim their lot in life would be better now if the white man had not come. We can speculate based on how history has unfolded elsewhere, but if you want to leave that aside, then I will happily concur. I see we'd both rather discuss issues than sling mud or deal in "might have beens".

All your points, definitely show ethnocentric bias and examples of how the education system has created brainwashed individuals in this society

Your comments also show ethnocentric bias. In as earlier post, you point a finger of guilt at "Whitey". If that's not biased, I don't know what is.

So both of us are guilty of that crime. We cannot help it, either of us. We are raised in a certain environment, indoctrinated with everything we've seen and heard all our lives, and at this point we must muddle through to find the best answers we can.

But being intelligent beings, we can both LEARN.

You've taught me some things here. I hope to learn more.

Hopefully I can bring something new to the table for you, too.

And do you seriously think they would have held off the troops if there had been an actual order to attack???

The saddest part of the Oka crisis to me anyways, was when Mohawk women and children and elders were crossing the Mercier bridge and were pelted with rocks as the cops and army watched.

Agreed. I saw some of that clip well after the fact, and it pissed me off royally. In fact it made me feel ill. It's one of the few times I've been ashamed of my countrymen.

As for the army part, no they probably wouldn't have been able to take on or hold off the troops, and some people believe they were trying to get the Mohawks to fire first so Canada could say they went to war with the indians and won

Taking the high ground. Good job. I've seen some argue that the Mohawk warriors could have held them off indefinitely.

Luckily, both sides showed admirable restraint under very tense circumstances. I don't think I have the self discipline to have stood there amongst the brave men on both sides and kept my cool.

I can't speak to the thing about trying to get the Mohawks to fire first, but I'm very glad it didn't turn into an all-out shooting war.

You seem to have totally missed the word "misguided", which I used in that paragraph.

"Trying" whilst using means which are not appropriate is still "trying". Hence the word "misguided".

"It's for their own good". People actually believed themselves when they said that. Arrogant bastards, I'll grant that, and the type that provide the pavement for the proverbial road to hell.

Why does everyone on this board take everything at face value, and in such stark black-and-white ways??? I made it plain at the beginning of this post that I was posting for sake of debate as the post I addressed had been begging, literally, for rebuttal for several days, and yet been left untouched.

As an individual I am far more open-minded than most, and am more than willing to educate myself further on any matter which I enter into.

I would say that the most progress could be made by people from BOTH sides of the debate who are also willing to look at the issue FROM BOTH SIDES.

I commend you on this and when you learn the truth, please spread your new found land oopps I mean newfound knowledge to the conservative narrow minded little kid thinkers of this world

Ooops??? I don't think that was an "oops". LoL. I understand your need to take at least one shot, and that one was pretty mild.

Seriously, I think both sides need to communicate more. Perhaps that would de-polarize the entire issue, and allow progress to be made. If two people like you and I can do so on a grass-roots level, then maybe there's hope for both nations after all.

This is another example of how hatred is spread against indians on some bogus propaganda. Yes there is funding but it is not easily accessible to all who want it.

Next time I'm faced with that fallacy, I'll be happy to de-bunk it.

There is a lot of favortism in bands and if you're not on the chiefs and councils' "favorite-list" then your out-of-luck.

So nepotism is not a whites-only disease. Nice to have some common ground. To bad it has to be something like this.

According to some research, it doesn't just stop with favoritism, but extends to election fraud, thievery, blackmail, and fraudulent misappropriation of funds originally earmarked for medical care, which end up as very fancy fixtures in some Band Chief's bathroom.

Sad, that. Playing politics with peoples' lives is bad enough. Stealing, quite literally, their health care simply so you can have a fancy toilet to sit on is beyond despicable.

In another thread I asked posters whose names start with "A" "T" "D" etc to discuss the first 12 years of "free education" given to all Canadians...not a peep from them. When one looks at all the negative crap created from false pretences and accompanying BS, in the forms of racism, discrimination, etc from so-callled professionals like some teachers, professors, doctors, cops, politicians etc ect the indians have paid dearly for all this so-called freebies on the reserves

At no time did I ever deny that Canada's Aboriginal People have got a raw deal.

What I HAVE done is questioned whether things are as bad as some make them out to be.

I've also pointed out that in some cases, in some issues, there were more causes than the presence and/or laws of the white man.

Whatever. Griz, you and I seem to have found a starting point here. I'd appreciate further discussion, further education, and more importantly I'd like to see a discussion looking into possible solutions to many of the existing problems with the relationship between Canada and her Native people.

Thanks again for a great reply.

[Shwa]

You cite Bizarro, you cite Bugs Bunny. You must have a penchant for fantasy fiction

Quite the opposite. I am citing Bugs and Bizarro in response to your post which, in my estimation is more cartoon-like "fantasy fiction" than anything resembling coherent reality. By saying that things "could be worse" is a direct denial of how bad things have been and, in some communities still, how bad they are today. You are glossing over the reality and, in my definition, that is propaganda - whether it is intentional or not.

Perhaps some more realistic reading...

Do you mean the sorts of field reports, statistics and policy papers from, say, a large federal department in Ottawa whose mandate is to manage Indian and Northern Affairs? Lucky me. When I worked there for 7 years indeed I did have more "realistic reading." They have a very extensive library and archives. When was the last time you read the Report from the Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples? Never? That's right, you have a couple of Indian friends who let you know what is up.

Here is a quote from the highlight paper prepared from the Report:

The relationship between Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal people in Canada has long been troubled and recently has shown signs of slipping into more serious trouble.

{emphasis is mine}

So the 1996 reality here is that it is "worse." If you want a decent historical survey on that very point, read 'Fair Country' by John Ralston-Saul. It is in your local Chapters bookstore.

If you want to debate a point, then please do so.

You say that things could be worse and then come up with some weird comparison using Cortes. This is the 'benevolence versus brutality' debate that comes up all the time in Canadian Native studies.

Mexico - 90% of the 111 million people are of Native ancestry. Indigenous languages are protected and some Indigenous groups have a cirect measure of self-determination.

Ecuador - 90% of the some 15 million people is of Native ancestry and

Peru - 82% of the some 20 million inhabitants are of Native ancestry. Quechua is spoken by some 15% of the population as their mother tongue and is an official language.

Bolivia - 85% of the some 10 million people is of Native ancestry and Quechua is an official language.

Chile - 44% of the some 16 million people is of Native ancestry.

Canada - 2%

So what did Cortes do again that made things worse? How are Native people in Canada better off with the British benevolency? BTW - shortly after Cortes the Spanish economy took an irreparable dive on account of a devaluing of silver in Europe due to glut. Guess where the silver came from.

Perhaps it might be more useful if you actually READ what you are responding to

Perhaps it might be more useful if you actually read - period. Because it is pretty clear to me that you don't know what you are talking about and your opinion on these issues are very poorly informed.

rather than continuing to pick on the same feeble point

Why would I bother with a qualification of a point when the original point doesn't even stand up to basic scrutiny? You are the one that is calling your point "feeble" not I.

[PocketRocket]

SHWA: I'm just checking in here briefly as I have to leave shortly to go to work, and so do not have the time to type out a long post.

But I wanted to say this much, that was a GREAT post. Possibly the best I've seen from you to date. Instead of calling me silly names and making personal attacks (well, a couple LITTLE ones, but what the heck....), you've brought up a lot of great information.

This is what I'm looking for. Information. I never claimed to know everything, and I'm always willing to learn.

I'll look into the data you've posted when I have the time (I work a short week, but my workdays are VERY long hours), and will reply accordingly. But in the meantime, you've given me more to think about.

Good job. Keep it up.

[Griz]

With the exception of posters like Charter and maybe one or two others, I basically knew that the others "wouldn't even come close" to reasonably answering or debating this. And the clowns call the rest of their postings conversation when it's jibberish

[Pliny]

rad79 you might be better avoiding this site, on the one hand you have fools like griz who put the blame soley on the Government and europeans and on the other you have morons like Gabriel who want to repeat the mistakes of the past, better to find a less biased site.

Actually, I agree with Gabriel on this matter. He isn't advocating to repeat the mistakes of the past. I think you are, by insisting Aboriginals be politically kept different and not contribute to the evolution of a Canadian society but creating a parallel separate native society.

Griz is a victim with hand out and likes being one. Give him a handout and he's happy for awhile.

As for True metis his efforts are at least attempting to wean the Aboriginal off the controlling whiteman's "money" and work their own way out of what providing an unproductive lifestyle that sort of welfare has wrought.

Edited December 11, 2009 by Pliny

[charter.rights]

Actually, I agree with Gabriel on this matter. He isn't advocating to repeat the mistakes of the past. I think you are, by insisting Aboriginals be politically kept different and not contribute to the evolution of a Canadian society but creating a parallel separate native society.

Griz is a victim with hand out and likes being one. Give him a handout and he's happy for awhile.

As for True metis his efforts are at least attempting to wean the Aboriginal off the controlling whiteman's "money" and work their own way out of what providing an unproductive lifestyle that sort of welfare has wrought.

Interesting...because you just made what Griz said relevant. You really don't know anything about the issues, but are prepared to issue solutions - which satisfy your needs and wants above native peoples' - anyway. Residential schools and assimilation policies of the past sought to do exactly what you advocate today.

And you "whiteman's money" statement puts you right up their with the racists in the past who thought they had something over native people.

[Guest TrueMetis]

Actually, I agree with Gabriel on this matter. He isn't advocating to repeat the mistakes of the past. I think you are, by insisting Aboriginals be politically kept different and not contribute to the evolution of a Canadian society but creating a parallel separate native society.

As for True metis his efforts are at least attempting to wean the Aboriginal off the controlling whiteman's "money" and work their own way out of what providing an unproductive lifestyle that sort of welfare has wrought.

Those post are kind of contradicting themselves.

Griz is a victim with hand out and likes being one. Give him a handout and he's happy for awhile.

Griz is white by the way.