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Aborignial challenges - social, political, and legal?


rad79

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rad79 - Why don't you go against the left-wing grain of university and tell the truth about Aboriginal underperformance in Canada? Ask yourself why so many varying cultures from around the world have come to Canada and thrived, yet many aboriginals are underperformed - they are overrepresented in crime, poverty, alcoholism, drug abuse, and high-school drop out rates (and virtually everything else bad). Perhaps it because we have taken a ridiculous approach in Canada by giving them this semi-parallel system in which to live while bleeding our country out of countless dollars over many decades. Why are Aboriginals permitted to live on reserves? They should live like all other Canadians do throughout Canada. Why are they given strange privileges above other Canadians? The policies of treating Aboriginals as some sort of special people with special rights is the biggest contributing factor their destruction. They need to be pushed into mainstream Canada, into our schools, into our communities, into our politics and not forced to perpetually sit on the sidelines with their hands out leeching off the Canadian economy. This perpetual culture of victimization is the greatest tragedy of all - we keep spinning this myth that Aboriginals are disadvantages people who need more and more help. This breeds a culture of dependence and underperformance. Again, almost all other cultures have successfully integrated into Canada and thrived. Aboriginals can do the same. It's time for us to stop looking at them as some sort of charity case and let them into our country to really reach their potential. After so many decades, blaming the government or the "white man" or outside forces gets old. This country is abundant in opportunities - everybody's got a shot at success.

Challenge yourself to look for the truth.

Great another brainwashed joker! Overrepresented in crime because the cops focus on FNS and whitey practically gets away with murder..."poverty alcoholism" etc etc and in the same breath you talk about "bleeding" every dollar? Give your head a shake! Where does all that money go if there is so much poverty? All the INAC bureacrats? The Chiefs family and the white lawyers and consultants bleeding the system. Same paralell system? :lol: Who wrote the laws? When did you actually see a FNS person have an impact on the constitution? Elijah Harper in the mid 1980s. Before that it was all White and I'II ask again--why are there idiots in our society who give indians shit over laws written by whiteman? Parallel system? :lol: If the indians have it so great on reserves then why don't all you idiots in power just make everything like a reserve? That's probably a bit too hard for you to comprehend. "Let them into our country?" :lol: "Them!" Holy crap give your head a shake and maybe some brainwashed gray-matter will jingle out. :lol: "Them!" :lol: Holy smokes are you that arrogant?

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They want their own government because it is believed, that it will create better opportunities for them to be more self-sustaining?

Integration was tried it did not work.

If First Nations want to integrate why are they trying to get self government?

Then what were the residential schools? They were created to force integration. They aren't incapable of itegration they don't want to integrate just like I couldn't itegrate into Afhgani culture because I wouldn't want to. And once again they are trying to obtain self government so they will be independant.

Massive errors? So you would have prefered the land to have just been taken and anyone who resisted killed? that would cause more prolems becuase than ALL of Canada would belong to the First Nations. You really don't understand how the law works do you? They don't want to integrate stop deluding yourself.

Yet I'm the one who wants the law to be obeyed.

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Guest TrueMetis

They want their own government because it is believed, that it will create better opportunities for them to be more self-sustaining?

Yes after the incredibly botched residential schools most First Nations are completely against any attempt by the Government to get the First Nations to integrate. Most of them want what is owed to them according to the treaties and to be left alone to attempt to regain there cultures. Most people will talk about them not having the resources to sustain themselves or some crap like that but in actuality they are legally intitled to land with large amounts of resources. Some large portions of Ontario, and parts of many other provinces and virtually all of British Columbia. British Columbia is an interesting part because very few First Nations there signed treaties and the Queen of England at that time signed a document giving all land not signed over through treaties to the First Nations.

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I have to agree with you on that. They wanted their title claims to land to be recognized, because certain land areas has cultural significance to them such as buriel sites, that were destoryed due to the construction of underground powerhouses.

Yes after the incredibly botched residential schools most First Nations are completely against any attempt by the Government to get the First Nations to integrate. Most of them want what is owed to them according to the treaties and to be left alone to attempt to regain there cultures. Most people will talk about them not having the resources to sustain themselves or some crap like that but in actuality they are legally intitled to land with large amounts of resources. Some large portions of Ontario, and parts of many other provinces and virtually all of British Columbia. British Columbia is an interesting part because very few First Nations there signed treaties and the Queen of England at that time signed a document giving all land not signed over through treaties to the First Nations.

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I have to agree with you on that. They wanted their title claims to land to be recognized, because certain land areas has cultural significance to them such as buriel sites, that were destoryed due to the construction of underground powerhouses.

People like Gabriel are the reason First Nation people live in a third world in Canada. They do little research on the real issues but often have the biggest mouths when it comes to issuing opinions and solutions. Their ignorance is Canada's greatest enemy.

Self-government has nothing to offer First Nations because the government will require that it conform to Canadian law - which of course was created by settlers to deal with settler issues. "The Law" and government does work for us and justice is illusionry, yet we insist that First Nations conform to our models and restrictions. If you really want to know about resistance and self-determination, then you must seek out First Nation people's opinions, because talking to us guys just doesn't cut it. Rather, look to the cigarette trade, and protests and you will find what true self-advancement is all about. If you properly do your research, you will also come across all that reasons that the government and the RCMP are against self-determination. They are the biggest obstacles to human rights, and self-reliant economy - not because it hurts the tax base but because it puts power in the hands of the people themselves, and removes the control that our government has placed on them for the last 200 years.

The difference in the last 40 years to now is primarily in education. Protesters are no longer blue collar workers, or unemployed malcontents. They are professional lawyers, and wealthy financiers of revolution who can dance their way in a courtroom every bit as much as on the protest line. Many of them know how the government works (and how it doesn't) and know where they can exploit them for the greater cause.

The cigarette trade has brought hundreds of millions of dollars in capital to otherwise poor and dying reserves. It has created sustainable new businesses, and put wealth within reaching distance of many First Nation people. With the new business and wealth comes economic power, independence and self-reliance. It puts people in place who are challenging and financing government policy and human rights issues all the way to the Supreme Court of Canada. It creates local power too, in that they are able to contribute to communities for social programs and in turn gain greater support for the liberation / revolution movements that are taking place right across Canada.

The government is afraid. Not because 2% of the population will take control of the self-serving system they control, but because the kind of revolution they are promoting is something Canadians want too. Accountability. True community based justice. Security. Wealth. Government is seen as an obstacle to all those things and Canadians - many of whom support First Nations protest and lands claims - want the same things. By settling lands claims and through self-sufficiency Canada loses control over First Nations - they only way to continue to steal lands and resources that rightfully belong to those First Nations.

Ask a protester. They can fill you in on the real story. And one more thing....don't be afraid to use oral history. It is an accepted form of evidence backed by the Supreme Court of Canada and is completely defensible in your thesis.

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RAD79,

"I can tell you're incapable of understanding the real problems at hand. Good luck with your paper."

This is a very insightful post toward the question of obstacles you are looking for. While such attitudes are becoming more uncommon, they do still exist and during the generation before the 1950's, was prevalent in government Aboriginal policy and process. Since the poster is unable to defend his/her position with civility, they simply dismiss you as 'incapable.' Many Aboriginal people have endured this unbalanced and incompetent view over generations. Happily, this attitude is all but disappearing from the political landscape on its own accord since it is so untenable.

A really good book to read - to get a general background - is John Ralston-Saul's 'A Fair Country.' Ralston-Saul provides a highly competent survey of Canadian history to dismantle the weak arguments and boorish attitudes as displayed by Gabriel. The book should be in the local library.

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Years ago as a child I remember that adults using a term called "The Indian List" . If a person was unruly while drunk - or violent or could not show up for work because he was drunk all the time - then was put on the Indian list. In other words this archaic idea came from the day when our Aborignals were simply not allowed to injest the toxin we call booze. Perhaps it's time to suggest this to native leaders - that if you are native you are not allowed to use this poison - and for that matter - If you are white - no crack smoking allowed...

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I gathered that, but that is okay. The thing is, a lot of ppl may feel they have an insight on these issues? And, maybe their right, and reading everyones views has made me think about deeper issues! i was just stating that i am not going to assume my opinion on the matter is right, and i think its kind of bold for anyone of us to claim that we totally "understand the real problems at hand". How can we? There is over a 100 years of history, and different points of view?

RAD79,

"I can tell you're incapable of understanding the real problems at hand. Good luck with your paper."

This is a very insightful post toward the question of obstacles you are looking for. While such attitudes are becoming more uncommon, they do still exist and during the generation before the 1950's, was prevalent in government Aboriginal policy and process. Since the poster is unable to defend his/her position with civility, they simply dismiss you as 'incapable.' Many Aboriginal people have endured this unbalanced and incompetent view over generations. Happily, this attitude is all but disappearing from the political landscape on its own accord since it is so untenable.

A really good book to read - to get a general background - is John Ralston-Saul's 'A Fair Country.' Ralston-Saul provides a highly competent survey of Canadian history to dismantle the weak arguments and boorish attitudes as displayed by Gabriel. The book should be in the local library.

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I never said the reserves would a great place to live. But since when in anyone OWED a quality life? Like all other Canadians, Aboriginals must earn their keep. If not, they're welcome to go to their local homeless shelters. This babysitting of the Aboriginals is what's contributing to their hardship. As long as they depend on someone else to take care of them, believing the lies that they are victims and thinking of themselves as less capable, they will continue to underperform. Don't think I haven't noticed that you've ignored the point that countless other cultures have come to Canada and integrated and thrived within the Canadian fabric. Cultural preservation of minorities isn't the responsibility of the government, and Aboriginals are entirely free to educate themselves on their own culture(s) and practise those aspects of their culture(s) that are compatible with Canadian laws and values.

They are owed a quality of life, according to the treaties that were signed. The treaties agreed that the First Nations would give over certain lands, and Canada in return would provide them with an education, medical care, housing, etc, etc. The agreement was that they would not have to pay taxes, as the land covered their taxes in perpetuity. The Canadian government hasn't given back the land, so they cannot simply stop holding up their end of the bargain.

Lastly, Aboriginals have never been pushed into mainstream Canadian society. They're always been segregated (a policy you support) and kept apart from all other Canadians under the guise of them "preserving their culture". We all know that culture can be preserved in Canada. What culture on the reservations is worth maintaining? Drug abuse? Alcoholism? Crime? Poor education? Unemployment? Hopelessness? Canada is a land of opportunity, and we need to open the door to these opportunities to all Canadians, including Aboriginals. We need to shut down the reserves and reserve all segregationist laws. When they integrate, as all other cultures have in Canada, they will thrive.

The Canadian government had an odd way of trying to integrate Aboriginals into mainstream society. The residential schools were set up to "take the Indian out of the child", but they left these children in limbo - they were not culturally "Indians" anymore, but they were not accepted by white society as equals, either. The education they received at the schools was substandard at best, leaving many children functionally illiterate despite years of "schooling". It also ingrained a distrust of the educational system, and government in general, in generations of First Nations people, who have passed that distrust on to their own children. Parents who had been through the residential school system knew exactly what was waiting for their children when they were taken away, and they were powerless to prevent it from happening. I can't imagine living on an isolated reserve, knowing my child was being abused far away and having no way to protect him or her - alcoholism makes sense in that context.

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When seeking answers in a political forum, you have to keep in mind that sometimes things can get belligerent....

*For starters don't listen to a majority of posters in forums like this because in general they haven't got a clue

Don't listen to Griz, He try's to speak for the First Nations but just exposes himself as a fool.

....sometimes thay can get insulting....

Wow! Yet another poster that actually makes sense! :lol: You're amazing in a forum that is ripe with doorknobs and wet-brains

A fact or two? Try all of them and you or the other wetbrain doorknobs, brainwashed arses can't even come close to answer :lol:

Your arrogant to.

.....and sometimes they can even get loud....

I dare you to rebut them! I bet you can't even come close! ;)

So, you may never find the answers you are seeking here, but if you can stand it long enough, you may be entertained.....

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Why dont you go on? I am curious to what else you have to say? What about the Aboriginals that did not sign the treaties, have they been worse off or benifited because they did not sign and treaties! So, they have the arguement that they never gave their land and title away to european settlers? I know in some cases, many Aboriginal communties were ignored by the govt or forced out!

Here are some of my points:


  • *For starters don't listen to a majority of posters in forums like this because in general they haven't got a clue
    *Aboriginals are practically legislated from birth until death in large part by the Indian Act/BNA Act (now Canadian Constitution that was written by non-aboriginals. A few weeks ago some poster on here were whining about a law against them for smoking cigarettes :rolleyes: What a moron
    *Aboriginals face a deluge of crap through propaganda that is often negative
    *The same propaganda somehow convinces the general public to believe that they've done aboriginal people one great big favour since they arrived in the boats from Europe
    *The same propaganda also leads the general public to believe that treaties roadblocks etc are all wrong when in reality in the very legal sense both levels of governments are squatters and the real law-breakers
    *Before you go into shock--it is simple--the earliest laws stated that treaties had to be signed unless the Europeans defeat in war, or sign a treaty--non of which has happened
    *In general there are racist and discriminatory actions from many non-aboriginals at the individual and institutional levels right throughout society. Sadly this is based on an education system that has created a great deal of ignorance that include politicians etc.
    *I can go on and on but this is a start :)

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Also, i would like to hear more from an First Nation perspective, on their culture has been affected. I have focused my paper on Innu of resistence and self-determination in regards to churchill falls.

Here are some of my points:


  • *For starters don't listen to a majority of posters in forums like this because in general they haven't got a clue
    *Aboriginals are practically legislated from birth until death in large part by the Indian Act/BNA Act (now Canadian Constitution that was written by non-aboriginals. A few weeks ago some poster on here were whining about a law against them for smoking cigarettes :rolleyes: What a moron
    *Aboriginals face a deluge of crap through propaganda that is often negative
    *The same propaganda somehow convinces the general public to believe that they've done aboriginal people one great big favour since they arrived in the boats from Europe
    *The same propaganda also leads the general public to believe that treaties roadblocks etc are all wrong when in reality in the very legal sense both levels of governments are squatters and the real law-breakers
    *Before you go into shock--it is simple--the earliest laws stated that treaties had to be signed unless the Europeans defeat in war, or sign a treaty--non of which has happened
    *In general there are racist and discriminatory actions from many non-aboriginals at the individual and institutional levels right throughout society. Sadly this is based on an education system that has created a great deal of ignorance that include politicians etc.
    *I can go on and on but this is a start :)

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I have witnessed the existance of a few noble aborignial families - Tall handsome fathers with beautiful wives and bright happy children. With out a doubt I can firmly say that this famil avoided like the plague - alcohol and drugs - I see poor white people who fair well also and they avoid booze and dope also - those that give in to the easy way out are all miserable - I remember one line from the son of a great bootleger...from a man who's early fortune was based on the sale of addictive substances - he had one line that came from heritage and experience........

ALCOHOL IS THE DESTROYER.

Need I say more?

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IF our department of Indian affairs wanted to save the day they would have to offend a billion dollar industy - and plainly state - and make it a policy of thought on this subject - that booze should be avoided - and compenstate families that returned to their ancient tradition of a no intoxicant world..The alcohol lobby would not stand for this - but it's the only solution.

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Well, seeing as you asked for rebuttal, but no one else seemed willing, and you can't have a debate if no one is willing to question your points, so here goes.......

Here are some of my points:


  • *For starters don't listen to a majority of posters in forums like this because in general they haven't got a clue

That would depend on the issue in question, and the viewpoint of the observer.

Those who you consider to "not have a clue" may feel the same way about you.

*Aboriginals are practically legislated from birth until death in large part by the Indian Act/BNA Act (now Canadian Constitution that was written by non-aboriginals. A few weeks ago some poster on here were whining about a law against them for smoking cigarettes :rolleyes: What a moron

Please cite example of how aboriginals are "legislated from birth until death". Among many native friends and acquaintances, I have heard complaints, but nothing about how their life is "legislated".

As for the second part regarding smoking laws and those complaining about them, why do such complaints make a person a "moron"??? If such a law affects their lives, they have the same right to bitch about that as you have to bitch about aboriginal issues.

*Aboriginals face a deluge of crap through propaganda that is often negative

I could say the same about the white anglo male in Canada, and much of it comes from minority groups who complain about "whitey" both in personal conversation and in the media.

I can also say that for the white anglo male, getting a government job is near impossible as most such jobs are reserved for Francophones or biligual people.

Perhaps you don't consider this complaint in the same league as some of your gripes, but it is a valid point nonetheless, and shows that a member of the majority can also face discrimination.

*The same propaganda somehow convinces the general public to believe that they've done

aboriginal people one great big favour since they arrived in the boats from Europe

Again, please cite examples of propaganda glorifying whites and their "favors" to aboriginals

*The same propaganda also leads the general public to believe that treaties roadblocks etc are all wrong when in reality in the very legal sense both levels of governments are squatters and the real law-breakers

This seems to have a bit of substance to it. I'll counter by asking this; if the Europeans had not arrived when they did, or not at all for that matter, do you not think that someone else would have arrived, possibly from the other direction??? Do you think the Aboriginal peoples would have fared better if this land had been discovered by China or Japan or Russia or any other number of nations??? Do you think these nations would have simply "squatted", or perhaps they would have done something worse. History holds many examples of genocide. No matter how bad things are, they can always be worse. Think of how the Inca and Aztec people fared under the tender mercies of Cortez.

Ultimately, this land was bound to be discovered by some nation or other. Being that the population here was divided into smaller tribes/nations, the land would be easy pickings for any hostile force. Lack of technology would exacerbate this vulnerability.

Perhaps the Europeans who colonized this land did not do everything in a manner that one of our aboriginal peoples would consider to be picture-perfect, and granted that many mistakes have been made, but Canada has TRIED to do right by Aboriginals. Many attempts were misguided, and some resulted in cruelty and abuse, but such abuse largely came from individuals within the system rather than the system itself. But we have learned, too. The residential schools did not work, and now they are no more. Other measures, also well intended but equally misguided, have also been taken off the table.

As of now, the genie is out of the bottle, and cannot be put back. No matter how much you may not like it, the country is now what it is and time will not reverse itself.

I would rather see discussion on how to improve matters in the future.

*Before you go into shock--it is simple--the earliest laws stated that treaties had to be signed unless the Europeans defeat in war, or sign a treaty--non of which has happened

This statement is confusing and non-specific. Please clarify.

*In general there are racist and discriminatory actions from many non-aboriginals at the individual and institutional levels right throughout society. Sadly this is based on an education system that has created a great deal of ignorance that include politicians etc.

I agree with this to a point. On a personal-discrimination level, I can honestly say that I have told "Indian jokes" that would be considered to be in bad taste. But I have also made Italian jokes in equally poor taste, and my ancestry is largely Italian. In that regard I am an equal-opportunity arsehole :P

I can also say that I have personally been accosted more times than I can remember by drunken aboriginals who are stumbling around the downtown streets of Sudbury, asking me for money, for smokes, and on more than a few occasions been cursed out soundly when I refused them. When I see large numbers of aboriginals in this state, in my opinion it gives me cause to have some reservations (pardon the pun) about dealing with them, and gives anyone who sees them behaving this way reason to have a bad opinion.

Flipside, many of my aforementioned aboriginal friends have made successful careers for themselves in trades, in teaching, in mining, in forestry and in music, proving that there is nothing stopping a First Nations person from taking advantage of the free education offered to him, and making a successful life for himself.

This free education is readily available to any Aboriginal who cares to avail himself of it. If you deem this a small thing, bear in mind that many people come out of a university education with debts that take them decades to pay off. This single perk allows an Aboriginal, if he so chooses, a headstart of tens of thousands of dollars when he finishes college/university. No small beans.

Two of my friends, brothers, as it happens, live on the Whitefish reserve, just outside Sudbury, and ply their trades in the city. When I asked them why they chose to move back to the reserve after having left some years earlier, I was told that by choosing to build on the reserve, they got subsidies to help pay for the cost of building their new homes, and no cost for the land on which they built their homes. VERY nice homes, I might add.

Neither of them seems to suffer from "lack of culture". They both attend sweatlodge regularly, participate in many ceremonies (which I readily admit to knowing nothing about), and one of them teaches native drumming to kids in his spare time.

They are very happy with their lot in life, and I often ask myself why they are the exception rather than the norm.

*I can go on and on but this is a start :)

That it is.

I look forward to your reply.

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RAD79: a suggestion.....if you're not actually going to address the particular post you are "replying" to, then either delete the post that is being quoted, or use the "Add Reply" button that appears at both top and bottom of the page.

It's far too ponderous looking at your posts when you have a HUGE quote in there, and you're just make a short, generalized remark which is in no way related to the actual quote you're including in your post.

Peace.

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ALCOHOL IS THE DESTROYER.

I would disagree. Alcohol is not the only intoxicant at play here. Many kinds of drugs, in addition to sniffing gas, glue, felt-tip pens and just about anything else that can give a buzz is coming into play.

But they are the symptom, not the disease.

All of these substances exist outside of Native communities. If the substances themselves were the problem, then the entire nation, if not the whole world, would be in dire straights.

In the communities where these problems are running rampant, I would point my finger at a lack of education, lack of leadership and lack of good parenting.

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They are owed a quality of life, according to the treaties that were signed. The treaties agreed that the First Nations would give over certain lands, and Canada in return would provide them with an education, medical care, housing, etc, etc. The agreement was that they would not have to pay taxes, as the land covered their taxes in perpetuity. The Canadian government hasn't given back the land, so they cannot simply stop holding up their end of the bargain.

And are all these things you've listed not provided???

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Please cite example of how aboriginals are "legislated from birth until death".

The Indian Act.

I could say the same about the white anglo male in Canada, and much of it comes from minority groups who complain about "whitey" both in personal conversation and in the media.

Funny. In my 50 something years I have never heard the term "whitey" used by a native or other visible minority. I have daily contact with natives from a number of communities, as well as frequent discussions withCanadians of all backgrounds. What I have heard and read is that term used by those who claim to be white Anglo-European males in an attempt to justify their own racism against minorities on countless occasions. So I believe that you are absolutely wrong, here....

I can also say that for the white anglo male, getting a government job is near impossible as most such jobs are reserved for Francophones or biligual people.

If you are not bilingual then you are not qualified for many government jobs. If you want to get into government then I suggest taking French as a second language. But don't blame the French or other bilingual people for your laziness. If a skill is required to do a job, and you don't have (or won't get it) then you are not qualified for the job. Period.

Perhaps you don't consider this complaint in the same league as some of your gripes, but it is a valid point nonetheless, and shows that a member of the majority can also face discrimination.

As above, this has nothing to do with discrimination. It has to do with your lack of qualifications.

This seems to have a bit of substance to it. I'll counter by asking this; if the Europeans had not arrived when they did, or not at all for that matter, do you not think that someone else would have arrived, possibly from the other direction??? Do you think the Aboriginal peoples would have fared better if this land had been discovered by China or Japan or Russia or any other number of nations??? Do you think these nations would have simply "squatted", or perhaps they would have done something worse. History holds many examples of genocide. No matter how bad things are, they can always be worse. Think of how the Inca and Aztec people fared under the tender mercies of Cortez.

The reality is that his land was never empty, waiting for "discovery" and when the Spanish,French and the British explorers came here they would not have survived without the knowledge and help of indigenous people. The vast trade networks for furs and other resources had already been established - north, south and east, west - and all early imperialists did was interfere with it and bring their wars and disputes here to fight over. From my knowledge of history, the damage our ancestors did by coming here and interfering with native people far outweighs the benefits they received. I mean if we did them such "favours" how come they live in third world conditions in many places in Canada and the US; don't have clean drinking water; we underfund their health system and education system by 50-90%; we under-employ them and jail them far more than any other Canadian? We are self-serving, not benevolent.

Ultimately, this land was bound to be discovered by some nation or other. Being that the population here was divided into smaller tribes/nations, the land would be easy pickings for any hostile force. Lack of technology would exacerbate this vulnerability.

This is an incorrect assumption. The historical fact is that the British were quick to make friends with the Iroquois because their early encounters with them proved they could not defeat them in conflict. And any such invasion, would have been met with an equally powerful rebellion. While steel and gunpowder did have its advantages initially, it wasn't long before the Iroquois had guns and powder, and man for man, they were more cunning and strategic then the highest ranking General. So we made treaties with them that helped the colonization of the Americas.

Don't underestimate native people, either. 25 Mohawk warriors held off 2500 troops at Oka in the 90's - 1 to 100 ratio. And while the ultimate goal was a peaceful resolution, the act of defiance stands tall in the history books. As for some history, there has never been a successful raid or attack on the Iroquois warriors and so I would considered them to be as much of a threat to our "progress" as you pretend we are to them.

Perhaps the Europeans who colonized this land did not do everything in a manner that one of our aboriginal peoples would consider to be picture-perfect, and granted that many mistakes have been made, but Canada has TRIED to do right by Aboriginals. Many attempts were misguided, and some resulted in cruelty and abuse, but such abuse largely came from individuals within the system rather than the system itself. But we have learned, too. The residential schools did not work, and now they are no more. Other measures, also well intended but equally misguided, have also been taken off the table.

As of now, the genie is out of the bottle, and cannot be put back. No matter how much you may not like it, the country is now what it is and time will not reverse itself.

This is not only presently incorrect, it is historically inaccurate. Propaganda.

In its entire history, Canada has been inflicting genocidal policies on aboriginals in a continuing attempt to steal land and resources. Every action from the Riel Rebellion, to the Indian Act, to the Residential Schools, to Stephen Harper's apology have been calculated to advance the Canadian agenda of assimilation or elimination.

I would rather see discussion on how to improve matters in the future.

It is evident that you could not enter into such a discussion, because well...your type of thinking IS the problem. And until you recognize that you are part of the problem (and not the solution) any discussion would be fruitless.

None of my native friends believe they are owed a quality of life. But if we believe that we are a just society, then we should acknowledge that WE OWE everyone a basic quality if life. We could start by ensuring that children eat, drink clean water, have clothes and a roof over their heads, have access to decent education, and are able to access the social safety net, just like everyone else. The fact is that we underfund all of these things - deliberately - and the attempt is to beat native people into submission not only to conform to our laws (which don't work for us) but to our backward culture and thinking system that puts wealth and hoarding above the common good.

Jails are overpopulated by aboriginal people for a reason. They neither have equal access to lawyers or are treated (or charged) on the same basis as ordinary Canadians. They are not more unlawful, statistically, but we have criminalized their protests and forced them into the system in order to defend their guaranteed rights under the Charter. No, we have increased aboriginal populations in prisons because they get in our way of development and destruction of habitat and their rights represent a mere blip in the corporate good.

A native friend often uses this analogy when discussing our society.

"The justice system that Canada beats natives down with is really the "just us" system."

I find that revealing and truthful.

So if you want to get into any discussion, the first place to start is to acknowledge your being part of the overall problem, and how we can help improve matters so YOU can see the real problem. Otherwise, the discussion is moot, and we will just carrying on with your myths as the theme to your Canadian existence.

I can also say that I have personally been accosted more times than I can remember by drunken aboriginals who are stumbling around the downtown streets of Sudbury, asking me for money, for smokes, and on more than a few occasions been cursed out soundly when I refused them. When I see large numbers of aboriginals in this state, in my opinion it gives me cause to have some reservations (pardon the pun) about dealing with them, and gives anyone who sees them behaving this way reason to have a bad opinion.

So how did you identify that these people were "aboriginal". Did you ask for their status card? Did you flip them over and see if their asses were tanned more than yours? Did you ask them where they came from and why they were on the streets of Sudbury. How do you know?

Flipside, many of my aforementioned aboriginal friends have made successful careers for themselves in trades, in teaching, in mining, in forestry and in music, proving that there is nothing stopping a First Nations person from taking advantage of the free education offered to him, and making a successful life for himself.This free education is readily available to any Aboriginal who cares to avail himself of it. If you deem this a small thing, bear in mind that many people come out of a university education with debts that take them decades to pay off. This single perk allows an Aboriginal, if he so chooses, a headstart of tens of thousands of dollars when he finishes college/university. No small beans.

This illustrates your backward thinking. Native people do not get "free education" They get, subsidy, bursaries and loans just like we do. Some native people have access to a collective fund that "assists" them in obtaining a post-secondary education, but it is not free any more than the scholarships, burseries, foundations and daddy's wealth makes education "free" for us.

Two of my friends, brothers, as it happens, live on the Whitefish reserve, just outside Sudbury, and ply their trades in the city. When I asked them why they chose to move back to the reserve after having left some years earlier, I was told that by choosing to build on the reserve, they got subsidies to help pay for the cost of building their new homes, and no cost for the land on which they built their homes. VERY nice homes, I might add.

So is your point that they don't deserve "nice homes" or that there is an advantage for them to live on the reserve? If it is the latter, then we can open that can of worms at a later time. There isn't enough white space here to even touch on it.

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Again, please cite examples of propaganda glorifying whites and their "favors" to aboriginals

Ok, I'll cite you. In the very next paragraph of your "rebuttal" no less! :o

No matter how bad things are, they can always be worse.

Here is another one that satisfies the request in plural:

...but Canada has TRIED to do right by Aboriginals...

So not only are you a victim of your own crapulence, you wallow in it too.

Good grief. Or in the immortal words of that wise sage Bugs Bunny, "What a maroon."

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