politicslvr Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 Now seeing as Remembrance Day has come and gone, it seems appropriate to discuss our beleaguered military and the misguided government who directs it. Now I am sure I am not the only poppy-wearing Canadian getting sick of our soldiers coming home in body bags, I’m sure our government is too – but seeing as the most significant thing they’ve done in regards to our armed forces is extend our one minute of silence to two on November 11th, I question the level of their concern. Perhaps we should be more invested in our soldiers while they are alive rather than remembering them after they are gone. Although considering the steady stream of body bags coming home, perhaps the government is on to something. Full article here Is it really true that our government is doing enough to protect our soldiers in combat? The author mentions the $40 000 salaries that many soldiers make and the relatively poor equipment they receive. And is a moment of silence on Remembrance day enough? As an Israeli who has experience Remembrance Day in Israel many times, I feel that the levels of "remembrance" are totally different in both countries, with many Canadians taking an "I don't really care" approach to the day. In my opinion, this is a serious issue, but I'm not so sure what can be done about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 Full article here Is it really true that our government is doing enough to protect our soldiers in combat? The author mentions the $40 000 salaries that many soldiers make and the relatively poor equipment they receive. And is a moment of silence on Remembrance day enough? As an Israeli who has experience Remembrance Day in Israel many times, I feel that the levels of "remembrance" are totally different in both countries, with many Canadians taking an "I don't really care" approach to the day. In my opinion, this is a serious issue, but I'm not so sure what can be done about it. Here is an idea which NDP member Peter Stoffer has been fighting for and the Conservatives have been blocking. Let veterans have their CPP which they pay into instead of clawing it back from their Military pension. "The Conservatives, and Liberal want to help you as long as you still in the military, the NDP are looking to help you after you get out." No has done more, or fought harder for veterans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriel Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 Here is an idea which NDP member Peter Stoffer has been fighting for and the Conservatives have been blocking. Let veterans have their CPP which they pay into instead of clawing it back from their Military pension. "The Conservatives, and Liberal want to help you as long as you still in the military, the NDP are looking to help you after you get out." No has done more, or fought harder for veterans. If you haven't already noticed, Israel has a much stronger culture of respect and admiration on the military level than Canada. I would argue that this also extends into a stronger sense of national service among Israelis than Canadians. Clearly in Israel, not serving in the army is likely to cause someone problems in his//her future: particularly with respect to career development. I'm sure you know that military service is often expected to be seen on an applicant's resume when applying for a position. There's a cultural/social expectation that the applicant has done his/her part and not avoided his/her military duties and responsibilities. Military service, not being compulsory in Canada, holds much less weight as a social expectation. I think these realities also overlap into a stronger sense of nationalism and patriotism in Israel than in Canada. I think you're in a unique position to comment on these matters as you're an Israeli. How long did you live in Israel and how long have you been in Canada, if you don't mind my asking? With respect to the article, it's pretty thin and lacking in substance. I think $40K a year for a private is a reasonable salary, especially considering the benefits packages made available to them in addition to the opportunities for advancement. There are also many other costs that are coverd for them - accommodation on base, food, etc. The article seems to suggest that Canada isn't respecting its soldier because it is paying the privates too small aa salary. I disagree completely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
politicslvr Posted November 14, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 I think you're in a unique position to comment on these matters as you're an Israeli. How long did you live in Israel and how long have you been in Canada, if you don't mind my asking? I lived in Israel as a child up until the age of 8 at which point my family decided to move to Toronto. I've been living in Canada for 13 years now. I still frequently travel to Israel on a regular basis to visit friends and family, and spend extended periods of time there during the summer months. On remembrance day in Israel, the entire country literally comes to a standstill. A nation-wide siren blares, and everyone stops what they are doing and stands in silence. People driving literally slam on the breaks so they can stand for as much of the siren as they can. The country is entirely unified in its effort to pay tribute to the soldiers that have died defending the country and those that continue to do so. Given these experiences, I was completely stunned at the events that took place in my classroom the morning of Remembrance Day at York University. You can read that story in another post on this forum here. Basically, my professor had no idea what Remembrance Day was. I encourage you to read that thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted November 16, 2009 Report Share Posted November 16, 2009 With respect to the article, it's pretty thin and lacking in substance. I think $40K a year for a private is a reasonable salary, especially considering the benefits packages made available to them in addition to the opportunities for advancement. There are also many other costs that are coverd for them - accommodation on base, food, etc. The article seems to suggest that Canada isn't respecting its soldier because it is paying the privates too small aa salary. I disagree completely. Actually a Pte is making approx 30 k a year, with 2 and LT making 40 k a year , both are pretty respectable wages in itself. however to put things into perspective, compare them with other jobs available . Such as your avg garbage man in toronto wages are from $25 to $50 dollars an hour.... RCMP officers from 50 to 75k a year. While true the Avg Pte in the forces spends less than 4 years in the rank of Pte rank, where he recieves promotion to Cpl which wages are a respectable 50 k a year....Still well below the examples i gave above... What benifits does a soldier really get, that are not afforded by the average civilian company ? not many.. Not paying income tax while deployed on operations. for the time you are out of Canada... Danger pay.... there are a few others that really not worth mentioning.... SO the question needs to be asked are soldiers really getting paid well, Yes they are, but when you compare them to other jobs around the country, then not really.... That being said you would not find to many soldiers complaining about wages...as good as they seem today, this was not the same situation 6 to 10 years ago, when soldiers where going to food banks and drawing welfare as well just to make ends meet...So we know what shitty wages are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted November 16, 2009 Report Share Posted November 16, 2009 Actually a Pte is making approx 30 k a year, with 2 and LT making 40 k a year , both are pretty respectable wages in itself. however to put things into perspective, compare them with other jobs available . Such as your avg garbage man in toronto wages are from $25 to $50 dollars an hour.... RCMP officers from 50 to 75k a year. While true the Avg Pte in the forces spends less than 4 years in the rank of Pte rank, where he recieves promotion to Cpl which wages are a respectable 50 k a year....Still well below the examples i gave above... unless the standards have changed lately it takes considerable better resume to become an RCMP recruit than a military recruit...if you live in a city like TO Vancouver or where I live Calgary 25-50 per hour is a minimum you need to live, the cost of living is very high... there are a few others that really not worth mentioning.... What benifits does a soldier really get, that are not afforded by the average civilian company ? not many.. from info related to me by family members in the forces I recall in the past dental care was taken of, as well traveling expenses, subsidized housing if you lived on a base, free travel on forces planes...this was in the past so I don't know if any still apply but none I would classify as "not worth mentioning"my family dental bill will hit $70-80,000 by the time the last kid is done, so that's worth mentioning if it's still a perk last time I moved to a new city it cost me $11,000, that's also worth mentioning... Not paying income tax while deployed on operations. for the time you are out of Canada...Danger pay.... deservedSO the question needs to be asked are soldiers really getting paid well, Yes they are, but when you compare them to other jobs around the country, then not really....That being said you would not find to many soldiers complaining about wages...as good as they seem today, this was not the same situation 6 to 10 years ago, when soldiers where going to food banks and drawing welfare as well just to make ends meet...So we know what shitty wages are. as any job you have to weigh the requirements needed and skills offered and minimum pay level required to live comfortably. You can't pay a recruit with a high school diploma a salary equivalent to University Prof with years of schooling, but you should pay him/her a salary they can live on in the location they're stationed.and as far as military equipment goes if we're going to send the military in to a war zone them we can't send them in with anything less than the best equipment available... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 unless the standards have changed lately it takes considerable better resume to become an RCMP recruit than a military recruit... If your talking about becoming a grunt that would hold some water, but the forces has alot of trades that require a better resume than what is accepted in the RCMP...You'd be surprised at how many current RCMP members are actually ex military. if you live in a city like TO Vancouver or where I live Calgary 25-50 per hour is a minimum you need to live, the cost of living is very high... I think you miss the piont it is after all a garbage collectors we are talking about, I would hope that our nations soldiers would be paid atleast as much as our nations garbage collectors.... from info related to me by family members in the forces I recall in the past dental care was taken of, as well traveling expenses, subsidized housing if you lived on a base, free travel on forces planes...this was in the past so I don't know if any still apply but none I would classify as "not worth mentioning" A Members dental care is looked after, but this is not unusual for companies to do this...as for my families dental care we are subdised for some dental under Blue cross..which is available to most. Traveling expenses are paid, provided it is for military business,IE courses, training,...it's not all that great, compared to say other governmental employees....and it only covers the member...unless it is a move... subsidized housing changed 5 or more years ago, And is no longer available..currently all rents on PMQ's are based on the average of what it costs downtown, for the same size of dwelling....So Housing is different across the country, out west you pay more than out east, you pay alot more if your in say toronto or in the city..keep in mind that those military PMQ's where constructed in the early 50's and you are paying the same rent as the ons down town constructed in the 90's 00 era...alot of military families are now purchasing thier own homes as a result. free travel on forces planes today is not the same as it was years ago, there is not a dedicated aircraft fleet for passagers....most haul cargo and there is a chance you can get a seat on these aircraft...if you don't mind cargo class...a nylon strapped seat on some herc...and you won't find many families flying on this flights...as they are not garenteed to get you to your designation... last time I moved to a new city it cost me $11,000, that's also worth mentioning... Yes DND does cover the cost of your move, after all we serve at our countries pleasure, and as a result members move frequently....but one has to admit, most of these postings are not gems, Suffield Alberta, Shilo Manitoba, Yellow knife NWT, Petawawa ont, out of the way places with not much to offer your family in regards to a normal life...But then again alot of companies pay for this. as any job you have to weigh the requirements needed and skills offered and minimum pay level required to live comfortably. You can't pay a recruit with a high school diploma a salary equivalent to University Prof with years of schooling, but you should pay him/her a salary they can live on in the location they're stationed. Thats the problem pay rates are standard across the board...regardless where you are stationed, sure the do offer some assistance in regards to the major cities rent but it does not cover half the problem...it's meant to assist, which creates another problem not alot of members want the big city postings, as it cost just to much. And i was'nt comparing a Pte's wage with an University Prof wage, but rather a garbage men wage....don't get me wrong it is a honest living , but so is soldiering... and as far as military equipment goes if we're going to send the military in to a war zone them we can't send them in with anything less than the best equipment available... This rarely happens, it has traditional been the lowest bidder, until very recently when sole sourcing has been introduced....but not very much of our stuff is the best the market has...don't get me wrong some of it is good, but it's far from the best... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeyStone Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 Full article here Is it really true that our government is doing enough to protect our soldiers in combat? The author mentions the $40 000 salaries that many soldiers make and the relatively poor equipment they receive. And is a moment of silence on Remembrance day enough? As an Israeli who has experience Remembrance Day in Israel many times, I feel that the levels of "remembrance" are totally different in both countries, with many Canadians taking an "I don't really care" approach to the day. In my opinion, this is a serious issue, but I'm not so sure what can be done about it. How about keep them out of stupid wars? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriel Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 Actually a Pte is making approx 30 k a year, with 2 and LT making 40 k a year , both are pretty respectable wages in itself. however to put things into perspective, compare them with other jobs available . Such as your avg garbage man in toronto wages are from $25 to $50 dollars an hour.... RCMP officers from 50 to 75k a year. While true the Avg Pte in the forces spends less than 4 years in the rank of Pte rank, where he recieves promotion to Cpl which wages are a respectable 50 k a year....Still well below the examples i gave above... What benifits does a soldier really get, that are not afforded by the average civilian company ? not many.. Not paying income tax while deployed on operations. for the time you are out of Canada... Danger pay.... there are a few others that really not worth mentioning.... SO the question needs to be asked are soldiers really getting paid well, Yes they are, but when you compare them to other jobs around the country, then not really.... That being said you would not find to many soldiers complaining about wages...as good as they seem today, this was not the same situation 6 to 10 years ago, when soldiers where going to food banks and drawing welfare as well just to make ends meet...So we know what shitty wages are. Thanks for the clarification Army Guy. I didn't know privates made 30K a year. Thanks also for informing us that privates generally spend four years at that rank. Please elaborate, though, are you telling me that 50K per year is the next step in salary? It seems strange to me that the entry rank is 30K, and then the next rank is 50K after approximately 4 years. It'd make more sense if there were more stages in between the 30K and 50K salaries, and waiting periods of less than four years between those raises. Perhaps I am misunderstanding you? Also, be careful with your suggestions of what garbage removal persons make. 50K - 100K (adjusted from your $25-$50/hours estimate) is a large range. I can assure you that waste removal workers are on the lower end of that scale. You do bring up an interesting point, though, when comparing the military salaries to other government salaries. It's not uncommon for administrative assistants to pull in about $50K. That being said, in the private sector they probably make about 50% of that salary. The government highly overpays for entry and mid-level positions (unions). But clearly this isn't the case in the military. The angle I come at this from is that government workers are, at least at the entry and mid-level positions, overpayed considering their qualifications (high school education - arts diploma/degree and/or bilingualism), rather than military servicepersons being underpayed. I'd love to hear more about your experienced in the military on other issues. Thanks for the insight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 The angle I come at this from is that government workers are, at least at the entry and mid-level positions, overpayed considering their qualifications (high school education - arts diploma/degree and/or bilingualism), rather than military servicepersons being underpayed. that's a generalization, my wife holds a public service management position where she would make 20K more in the private sector...overpaid for qualifications? I knew a military person who was a true illiterate, do you think he deserved the same pay someone with an arts degree? I've a daughter working on her arts degree(and bilingual) and her work load exceeds many other degree courses, it's arrogant when assume your specialized knowledge is better than another's...I've a nephew who was ships gunner, he's dumber than a bag of hammers 30K is all he deserved... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriel Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 (edited) that's a generalization, my wife holds a public service management position where she would make 20K more in the private sector... overpaid for qualifications? I knew a military person who was a true illiterate, do you think he deserved the same pay someone with an arts degree? I've a daughter working on her arts degree(and bilingual) and her work load exceeds many other degree courses, it's arrogant when assume your specialized knowledge is better than another's...I've a nephew who was ships gunner, he's dumber than a bag of hammers 30K is all he deserved... Then why doesn't she work for the private sector? That makes no sense whatsoever. A degree in public service management? They give our degrees for that, now? Sounds like a one-year college diploma to me. In other words - a nonsense education. I stand by statement - that the government, on the whole, overpays for entry-level positions with low to medium educational requirements. Getting paid $45-50K WITHOUT a university degree is overpaying with respect to administrative positions. I know students who got paid over $20 via FSWEP working nonsense cultural jobs and useless positions in Heritage Canada or other sinkholes of public money. The other day I looked at provincial and municipal jobs, just for fun, and saw jobs that could be fulfilled by a person with an IQ of 80 paying close to $50K a year, from library employees to line cooks to court clerks. All were extremely simple jobs paying WAYYYYY too much... the lowest common denominator? They're all government jobs. Edited November 17, 2009 by Gabriel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 Thanks for the clarification Army Guy. I didn't know privates made 30K a year. Thanks also for informing us that privates generally spend four years at that rank. Please elaborate, though, are you telling me that 50K per year is the next step in salary? It seems strange to me that the entry rank is 30K, and then the next rank is 50K after approximately 4 years. It'd make more sense if there were more stages in between the 30K and 50K salaries, and waiting periods of less than four years between those raises. Perhaps I am misunderstanding you? Pay scales are available on DND web site, or recruiting page, The starting wage for a recruit is 30 k, over the next 3 to 4 years they will recieve gradual pay raises, IE after recruiting you procede to trades training complete that you get a pay raise small, but it's a raise....every year there is an incremental raise once again small but it's a raise, the Largest pay raise a soldier will get is from Pte to Cpl....almost 12 k jump...for non spec trades, spec trades the jump is alot larger.... That being said the next rank level is from Cpl to Mcpl the difference here is approx 65- 100 dollars a month for non spec trades, ie more resposability but small pay raise... Also, be careful with your suggestions of what garbage removal persons make. 50K - 100K (adjusted from your $25-$50/hours estimate) is a large range. I can assure you that waste removal workers are on the lower end of that scale. You do bring up an interesting point, though, when comparing the military salaries to other government salaries. It's not uncommon for administrative assistants to pull in about $50K. That being said, in the private sector they probably make about 50% of that salary. The government highly overpays for entry and mid-level positions (unions). But clearly this isn't the case in the military. I got this info off the Toronto sanition web site, and while the majority are proable on that lower end, i'm sure thier is plenty on the higher scale as well...I know it shocked me as well...that being said here in Gagetown NB my garbage guy is making a cool 22 dollars an hour, still a decent wage.... Federal government workers do make a very decent wage, some with no speciality skills what so ever...are making well beyond my wage... I like to say again , not many soldiers complain about wages, as one of the highest paid militaries in the world, we do all right...but there should be some common sense placed on how we pay people.... The angle I come at this from is that government workers are, at least at the entry and mid-level positions, overpayed considering their qualifications (high school education - arts diploma/degree and/or bilingualism), rather than military servicepersons being underpayed. perhaps the private sector needs to catch up. Todays recruits have a higher education level than say just 15-20 years ago, when high school was the norm, now basic inf have degrees, alot of them have serveral...and join the Inf as a starting block, and gradually work themslefs and thier education to a higher placed job, or trade. I'd love to hear more about your experienced in the military on other issues. Thanks for the insight. Got a question ask. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 overpaid for qualifications? I knew a military person who was a true illiterate, do you think he deserved the same pay someone with an arts degree? I've a daughter working on her arts degree(and bilingual) and her work load exceeds many other degree courses, it's arrogant when assume your specialized knowledge is better than another's...I've a nephew who was ships gunner, he's dumber than a bag of hammers 30K is all he deserved... perhaps 25- 30 years ago, but not in todays army, not a chance, everyone has to taken a written and oral test or interview, which tests not only IQ levels but slots you into a trade ....if you could not read or write...one would not score very well...and with todays standards , like i said before even the Infantry has a good number of it's recruits already with degrees... Must have had something going for him as ships gunnery stills need alot of math, understanding ballistics, mechanics of the gun, ..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriel Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 Pay scales are available on DND web site, or recruiting page, The starting wage for a recruit is 30 k, over the next 3 to 4 years they will recieve gradual pay raises, IE after recruiting you procede to trades training complete that you get a pay raise small, but it's a raise....every year there is an incremental raise once again small but it's a raise, the Largest pay raise a soldier will get is from Pte to Cpl....almost 12 k jump...for non spec trades, spec trades the jump is alot larger.... That being said the next rank level is from Cpl to Mcpl the difference here is approx 65- 100 dollars a month for non spec trades, ie more resposability but small pay raise... So what's a private typically earning before he/she goes to Corporal? $35k? $40K? How easy is it for a private without an education to get assistance from the military to pursue a degree? And do degrees have to be relevant, or can a soldier get tuition assistance from the military in order to pursue a nonsense degree like "women's studies"? I got this info off the Toronto sanition web site, and while the majority are proable on that lower end, i'm sure thier is plenty on the higher scale as well...I know it shocked me as well...that being said here in Gagetown NB my garbage guy is making a cool 22 dollars an hour, still a decent wage....Federal government workers do make a very decent wage, some with no speciality skills what so ever...are making well beyond my wage... I guess the unions have done a good job at circumventing supply and demand dynamics and securing wages that are beyond their skillset/education. I like to say again , not many soldiers complain about wages, as one of the highest paid militaries in the world, we do all right...but there should be some common sense placed on how we pay people.... When compared to the many entry level positions in the government that are paying WAY TOO MUCH, I'd agree military servicepersons should be paid a little more. There's no sense in paying an administrative assistanct at Health Canada more than an infantry soldier. There's no sense in a library employee who drives book from branch to branch more than an infantry soldier. I can give many other examples illustrating this silliness. perhaps the private sector needs to catch up. The private sector, unlike the government, lives in reality (for the most part). Private companies can't fail year after ear and depend on revenues via taxes. If private companies don't sell something, they go under. Obviously government don't feel that pressure on any similar level. This allows government to overpay many employees. I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir, here. I don't think secretaries should expect to make $50K a year. And they don't. But in the government they do. Todays recruits have a higher education level than say just 15-20 years ago, when high school was the norm, now basic inf have degrees, alot of them have serveral...and join the Inf as a starting block, and gradually work themslefs and thier education to a higher placed job, or trade. Got a question ask. I'd like to hear more about what you think of opportunities for advancement within the military. Do you feel that the military is doing a good job at identifying its internal talent and pushing them along to more challenging and higher paying positions? Are opportunities often available to high-performing military servicepersons to learn new skills and get to training in order to assume more responsibilities and earn more money? From simpler things like language training to more complex stuff like degrees? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rad79 Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 I think how they could really do more for them is bring the home! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 So what's a private typically earning before he/she goes to Corporal? $35k? $40K? How easy is it for a private without an education to get assistance from the military to pursue a degree? And do degrees have to be relevant, or can a soldier get tuition assistance from the military in order to pursue a nonsense degree like "women's studies"? That depends, there is always a but...once your trained the military wants to employ you, so it would depend on the trade you chose and the unit your deployed with...units with a high operation tempo often members don't have time to persue higher education...but the military never frowns on upgrading your education, in fact it's encouraged...Yes they have to have be relevent to some degree, not mush call for say womens studies or interior decorating....but keep in mind the military has hundrards of trades, and officers programs that encompass just about everything you can think off from being in the Infantry, to space sciences, comms and sats....Memebrs can also have a good portion of thier education payed for...either in the ranks Pte to CWO, or in the officers programs, the but to all this is you have to pass the courses you take...and they will refund a good portion of it...fail and it's on your dime... I'd like to hear more about what you think of opportunities for advancement within the military. Do you feel that the military is doing a good job at identifying its internal talent and pushing them along to more challenging and higher paying positions? Are opportunities often available to high-performing military servicepersons to learn new skills and get to training in order to assume more responsibilities and earn more money? From simpler things like language training to more complex stuff like degrees? There is plenty fo oppotunities for advance, and if your good at what you do the shy is the limit...The military does a good job at pushing them and you'll be challange more than you could imagine, keeping in mind our operational tempo is the highest it has been since the Korean war....promotion and annual raises will answer your money questions...like i said it is a very delicate balancing act doing the job and getting you the training you need to progress....it's the most challanging thing i've attemted in my life...and you'll here that across the board...those not happy in their current jobs often change entire carears keep in mind there is hundrds of chioces as long as you score well enough in your aptitude tests... Language traing is a must for progression, all training is free and given to those that require it for progression...other training is also free, and as required...including higher education provided you pass your courses.... I've given you the basics your best bet is to vist the DND recruiting web site or see DND's other web sites, to give you a more detailed discription....can't find them i'll get them for you....The defense team is always looking for new people ....thats my best recruiting pitch...iyou should also know that the Military pays out huge signing bonues for some trades or postions...worth looking into.... And while i've pitched you my best pitch, Military life is not for everyone..it's very regimental, very unbending in it's rules and regulations, and you will be held to a higher standard than any job in the civilian world, you'll be subjected to serveral kinds of laws, starting with Canada's criminal code, military law, plus all the conventions we've signed on to as a nation....screw up here and your in for a rough ride....There is no surprises in the military, if you sign up for combat you'll know very quickly what that entials....sign up for something else and you'll know exactly what it does....you won't wake up one day on the battle field and say...i did'nt sign up for this....your training starting in basic is designed to weed those out... I hope that answers your question.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 perhaps 25- 30 years ago, but not in todays army, not a chance, everyone has to taken a written and oral test or interview, which tests not only IQ levels but slots you into a trade ....if you could not read or write...one would not score very well...and with todays standards , like i said before even the Infantry has a good number of it's recruits already with degrees... you're right it was 25-30 yrs ago I knew things have changed since then...Must have had something going for him as ships gunnery stills need alot of math, understanding ballistics, mechanics of the gun, that particular nephew wasn't the brightest barely graduated high school but he was probably trainable but one dimensional, I don't know his precise task he just said "I fire the gun"...while no doubt there are recruits with degrees none of them have degrees as military recruits they're entering a field of work they have no experience in so do not deserve a pay better than a high school grad recruit...now if they had a degree in engineering and went into officer training for something related to that, that would be another matter... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Moore Posted November 18, 2009 Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 Pay and training aside. (30k starting salary for someone with a high school education is actually pretty good) The government really needs to expand the military and actually create a force able to act for a sovereign nation. We must admit that our forces as competent as the men and women fighting in are, Is in abysmal state. We could not act in our own defense or if necessary invade another country. We do not have the capacity of a full modern army lacking things like an airborne division, marines(NOT the US kind) or attack helicopters etc. Where un-developed nations like mexico do. instead we rely upon Other nations like the US for military assistance basically if we need helicopters they send in theirs to back ours up. the best thing for our troops would be to build a force capable of acting fully and independently as a modern army. I would argue this is also best for our nation as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry J. Fortin Posted November 18, 2009 Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 I would suggest that we need to expand our military and to do that I think we need to take better care of them. Full 2/3 pension after 25 years service, full healthcare, access to all government programs and services. Free secondary education for them and their immediate family. Tax immunity for life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted November 18, 2009 Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 Pay and training aside. (30k starting salary for someone with a high school education is actually pretty good) The government really needs to expand the military and actually create a force able to act for a sovereign nation. We must admit that our forces as competent as the men and women fighting in are, Is in abysmal state. We could not act in our own defense or if necessary invade another country. We do not have the capacity of a full modern army lacking things like an airborne division, marines(NOT the US kind) or attack helicopters etc. Where un-developed nations like mexico do. instead we rely upon Other nations like the US for military assistance basically if we need helicopters they send in theirs to back ours up. the best thing for our troops would be to build a force capable of acting fully and independently as a modern army. I would argue this is also best for our nation as well. who do we need to defend ourselves against? no country has any disputes our territorial claims other the USA(the Russians recognize our arctic claims) and unless we are about to build a nuclear deterrent we will never be strong enough to defend ourselves from them... and why would we need to invade any other country? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted November 18, 2009 Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 I would suggest that we need to expand our military and to do that I think we need to take better care of them. Full 2/3 pension after 25 years service, full healthcare, access to all government programs and services. Free secondary education for them and their immediate family. Tax immunity for life. no, ridiculous...it's a job like any other... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry J. Fortin Posted November 18, 2009 Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 no, ridiculous...it's a job like any other... Just how many jobs that you can think of may cost you your life? I actually believe that all policeman, fireman, and soldiers deserve special treatment. They do for us what we can't do for ourselves and that should be recognized. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted November 18, 2009 Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 Just how many jobs that you can think of may cost you your life? I actually believe that all policeman, fireman, and soldiers deserve special treatment. They do for us what we can't do for ourselves and that should be recognized. many, many, many jobs can cost you your life, being a fireman, police or military don't even make the top ten list for most dangerous jobs... Number one on the list is a tie between logging and aircraft pilots at 92.4 fatalities per 100,000. 3. Fishers & Fishing Workers: 86.4 4. Iron & Steel Workers: 47.3 5. Garbage Collectors: 43.2 6. Farmers & Ranchers: 37.5 7. Roofers: 34.9 8. Power Line Installers/Repairers: 30 9. Truckers and Driver/Sales Workers (such as pizza delivery persons): 27.6 10. Taxi Drivers & Chauffeurs: 24.2 it appears garbage collectors are full value for their wages...two jobs I'd never touch, fisherman and cab driver it's far safer in the military.... free tuition for military kids? they can look after it like the rest of us do, work, save up or take a loan... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriel Posted November 18, 2009 Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 many, many, many jobs can cost you your life, being a fireman, police or military don't even make the top ten list for most dangerous jobs... Number one on the list is a tie between logging and aircraft pilots at 92.4 fatalities per 100,000. 3. Fishers & Fishing Workers: 86.4 4. Iron & Steel Workers: 47.3 5. Garbage Collectors: 43.2 6. Farmers & Ranchers: 37.5 7. Roofers: 34.9 8. Power Line Installers/Repairers: 30 9. Truckers and Driver/Sales Workers (such as pizza delivery persons): 27.6 10. Taxi Drivers & Chauffeurs: 24.2 it appears garbage collectors are full value for their wages...two jobs I'd never touch, fisherman and cab driver it's far safer in the military.... free tuition for military kids? they can look after it like the rest of us do, work, save up or take a loan... First of all, where are you getting those statistics? Secondly, and more obviously, it's clear that if those statistics are accurate, that the casualties are virtually all preventable accidents. If a roofer dies on the job, it's because safety regulations weren't being adhered to. If an iron or steel worker dies on the job, it is again because safety regulations weren't being adhered to. These are all controlled environments. How can not realize that those professions are entirely different than soldiers going into combat against enemies who intend to kill them? The roof isn't trying to kill the roofers, the iron and steel factories aren't trying to kill the factory workers. The accidents are virtually all preventable. I'll make it very simple for you - there is a world of difference between a job that is dangerous if you behave irresponsibly and a job that REMAINS dangerous even when you adhere to all reasonable (and beyond) safety precautions. Please stop suggesting that steel workers are in a more dangerous job than soldiers in combat simply because they make many more mistakes and injure/kill themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry J. Fortin Posted November 18, 2009 Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 First of all, where are you getting those statistics? Secondly, and more obviously, it's clear that if those statistics are accurate, that the casualties are virtually all preventable accidents. If a roofer dies on the job, it's because safety regulations weren't being adhered to. If an iron or steel worker dies on the job, it is again because safety regulations weren't being adhered to. These are all controlled environments. How can not realize that those professions are entirely different than soldiers going into combat against enemies who intend to kill them? The roof isn't trying to kill the roofers, the iron and steel factories aren't trying to kill the factory workers. The accidents are virtually all preventable. I'll make it very simple for you - there is a world of difference between a job that is dangerous if you behave irresponsibly and a job that REMAINS dangerous even when you adhere to all reasonable (and beyond) safety precautions. Please stop suggesting that steel workers are in a more dangerous job than soldiers in combat simply because they make many more mistakes and injure/kill themselves. Here are the same numbers; My link Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.