The Berlin Wall was a punishment.

[Oleg Bach]

How quickly we forget how the Germanic culture seeked to destroy the world as we know it. How fast we jump for joy when we hear the word freedom and democracy. The fact was that Germany and their henchmen - including some western enterprizers were punished at the end of WW2. The west and it's allied forces including the old Soviet Union, literally cut the head off the Dragon that was the very unholy Germanic Empire.

One generation later and we all forget that this tribe were bastards under man and God. I believe that the wall should have been held firm for at least one more generation to teach the punks a lesson - You still see the grandfathers and mothers of Germans being interviewed regarding the rule of Hitler. Almost all of these old freaks look back on the horror years with glee and pride. The European Union of balless socialism is Hitlers dream come true. It was simply a belated ending to a sick agenda that will in time rear it's ugly head again - and we might have to rechop the dragons head.

[Strangles]

I agree with your assessment of the German punishment.

I have noticed many people in today's times romanticize the murderous German forces. Some are trying to even lift the defeated flags of Nazism once more, especially in nations who were hardest hit (Neo-nazis in Russia).

[Shwa]

"held firm for at least one more generation to teach the punks a lesson"

Geez, isn't that the same attitude that gave rise to Nazi Germany in the first place? You know, the Treaty of Versailles and the enormous reparation payments and everything. Or is that a lesson of history worth ignoring?

[Oleg Bach]

To much forgiveness going on for my liking. Do you really believe that Germany learned it's lesson other than the lesson that is the weight of embarassment due to being finally vanquished? I don't like the culture...but revenge comes on it's own. Give the EU a few more decades of existance and all the German super males will be gayified.

[Oleg Bach]

I agree with your assessment of the German punishment.

I have noticed many people in today's times romanticize the murderous German forces. Some are trying to even lift the defeated flags of Nazism once more, especially in nations who were hardest hit (Neo-nazis in Russia).

I had a writing partner who was born in Canada, who's parents were from Poland. He thought that the Nazi uniform and that whole dark persona was really cool. Some people embrace evil as if it was a piece of art to be toyed with. HATE....Is an easy emotion to instil in the average rube. Once you have put hate into the hearts and minds of the average person - that person is as controlable as a robot. It's like slander. People are more than willing to believe in the worst before the best. It gives them a cheap sense of security and identity.

[Moonlight Graham]

"held firm for at least one more generation to teach the punks a lesson"

Geez, isn't that the same attitude that gave rise to Nazi Germany in the first place? You know, the Treaty of Versailles and the enormous reparation payments and everything. Or is that a lesson of history worth ignoring?

Exactly. Revenge is what led to the harsh terms in Versailles. Keeping the Berlin Wall up would be a sick punishment. With the USSR gone, who would keep up the Wall? The West would. Do we want our men to stand in towers and shoot civilians trying to cross it...for the sake of revenge? Sick.

Do we want East Germany to stay behind the wall, and develop anti-West and anti-democratic resentments which led to the rise of Nazi Germany in the 1st place? Everyone is better off with Germany united, democratic & free, and finally healthy. If you want revenge, Germans took their share of beatings via their defeats in WWI and WWII, plus they were a battleground in the Cold War. The wars are over, just let it go.

[DogOnPorch]

When dealing with Oleg, keep in mind he believes the Nazis were actually Jewish.

[lictor616]

How quickly we forget how the Germanic culture seeked to destroy the world as we know it. How fast we jump for joy when we hear the word freedom and democracy. The fact was that Germany and their henchmen - including some western enterprizers were punished at the end of WW2. The west and it's allied forces including the old Soviet Union, literally cut the head off the Dragon that was the very unholy Germanic Empire.

One generation later and we all forget that this tribe were bastards under man and God. I believe that the wall should have been held firm for at least one more generation to teach the punks a lesson - You still see the grandfathers and mothers of Germans being interviewed regarding the rule of Hitler. Almost all of these old freaks look back on the horror years with glee and pride. The European Union of balless socialism is Hitlers dream come true. It was simply a belated ending to a sick agenda that will in time rear it's ugly head again - and we might have to rechop the dragons head.

absolute hogwash.

First off, the Allies purposely imposed ridiculous land redistribution and outrageous war debts... the ludicrous Versailles treaty alone guaranteed further conflicts in Europe (by forceful integration and the like) http://www.ashatteredpeace.com/ fomenting rebellions, coups etc.

Then, american and British banking cartels financed "communism and fascism" simultaneously, hoping for a conflict between the two irreconcilable ideologies.

Then the West set up alliances to ensure that any small conflict would turn global (its called bandwagoning in IR).

Then when German was merely annexing portions of Poland (danzig) that WAS actual german territory, with german people (and german as the lingua franca) Britain declared WAR ON GERMANY... not the other way around.

And your strident condemnation of Germany, is revolting, since you ignore the far greater Culture and WOrld wreckers: our gallant soviet ally, who'se poisonous and blood soaked history caused FAR MORE death and human suffering then anything imaginable by the nazis...

the WOrld Destroyers (the Communists) liquidated cultures, suppressed swathes of people, murdered people by the tens of millions, denied everyone nearly every "human right" of any importance, and gave rise to a nuclear arms race that nearly ended the world on a few close calls...

and you reprimand Germany instead? who was raped, savaged and humiliated by the same bolshevik "red canaille"?

and you talk of Germans as "bastards under man and god"... nevermind that such statements are obviously the product of a befuddled and handicapped mind, again what of the russians? Who took control of the churches only to further enslave and subjugate the countries they occupied?

Edited November 10, 2009 by lictor616

[Guest TrueMetis]

How quickly we forget how the Germanic culture seeked to destroy the world as we know it. How fast we jump for joy when we hear the word freedom and democracy. The fact was that Germany and their henchmen - including some western enterprizers were punished at the end of WW2. The west and it's allied forces including the old Soviet Union, literally cut the head off the Dragon that was the very unholy Germanic Empire.

One generation later and we all forget that this tribe were bastards under man and God. I believe that the wall should have been held firm for at least one more generation to teach the punks a lesson - You still see the grandfathers and mothers of Germans being interviewed regarding the rule of Hitler. Almost all of these old freaks look back on the horror years with glee and pride. The European Union of balless socialism is Hitlers dream come true. It was simply a belated ending to a sick agenda that will in time rear it's ugly head again - and we might have to rechop the dragons head.

You do realize that Canada, America, England, Etc are all "Germanic cultures"?

[Sir Bandelot]

Well I know people who are of German descent, and they bear absolutely no responsibility for what some idiots did in the 1930's.

Not all Germans agreed with the war, many were against it such as my friends family. They had to hide from the bombs, just like civilians in other countries did, when the german bombers came there...

Since Germany became a dictatorship under Adolph Hitler, who had the army and police under his command. It was a police state. Ordinary Germans who opposed the war were silenced, or imprisoned.

Edited November 10, 2009 by Sir Bandelot

[kimmy]

Exactly. Revenge is what led to the harsh terms in Versailles. Keeping the Berlin Wall up would be a sick punishment. With the USSR gone, who would keep up the Wall? The West would. Do we want our men to stand in towers and shoot civilians trying to cross it...for the sake of revenge? Sick.

Do we want East Germany to stay behind the wall, and develop anti-West and anti-democratic resentments which led to the rise of Nazi Germany in the 1st place? Everyone is better off with Germany united, democratic & free, and finally healthy. If you want revenge, Germans took their share of beatings via their defeats in WWI and WWII, plus they were a battleground in the Cold War. The wars are over, just let it go.

This is very well said.

-k

[Strangles]

The war was still Germany's prerogative.

Blaming Western financiers for bankrolling Hitler and Stalin is the equivalent of blaming the IMF and World Bank for bankrolling corrupt African dictators, rebels, and Latin American left and right wing paramilitaries. Only so much blame can be tossed around before we must point fingers at those doing the actual shooting.

This wasn't Germany's first attempt at Genocide either...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herero_and_Namaqua_Genocide

[lictor616]

The war was still Germany's prerogative.

Blaming Western financiers for bankrolling Hitler and Stalin is the equivalent of blaming the IMF and World Bank for bankrolling corrupt African dictators, rebels, and Latin American left and right wing paramilitaries. Only so much blame can be tossed around before we must point fingers at those doing the actual shooting.

This wasn't Germany's first attempt at Genocide either...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herero_and_Namaqua_Genocide

Is the IMF not in the wrong in doing this? I mean do you not realize that the IMF IS responsible for many wars, and genocides? I don't absolve the IMF of any blame just as I cannot make the financiers of the great and useless fratricidal war in europe... They are guilty of genocide, and worse: TREASON. and they should not go unpunished.

As the for Herero "genocide" well.. you can blame Christianity for that...

The poor German missionaries were reffering to the Herero and other malodorous tribes as "nboble savages" who (of course) must receive Christ to make them "equal" in the eyes of the lord. The Chrisitan missionaries in other words were animated by the same insane unreason that modern liberals (who constantly meddle in the affairs of non-white, non western people)... the primitive Christian desire for equality...

However, in 1905, the herero just as the the MajiMaji in Tanganyika, murdered all the missionaries and almost all the white men and women in the territory, and so the Germans shipped over an entire German Grenadier Regiment and numerous companies of kriegsmarine to restore the teachings of the bible to these "noble savages". This was accomplished by providing the herero with 40 to 60 000 demonstrations that a 7.92x57mm bullet could penetrate the head of even the strongest practitioner of african voodoo.

[Peter F]

"the WOrld Destroyers (the Communists) liquidated cultures, suppressed swathes of people, murdered people by the tens of millions, denied everyone nearly every "human right" of any importance, and gave rise to a nuclear arms race that nearly ended the world on a few close calls...

and you reprimand Germany instead? who was raped, savaged and humiliated by the same bolshevik "red canaille"?

and you talk of Germans as "bastards under man and god"... nevermind that such statements are obviously the product of a befuddled and handicapped mind, again what of the russians? Who took control of the churches only to further enslave and subjugate the countries they occupied? "

That was bad. And this was noble:

"However, in 1905, the herero just as the the MajiMaji in Tanganyika, murdered all the missionaries and almost all the white men and women in the territory, and so the Germans shipped over an entire German Grenadier Regiment and numerous companies of kriegsmarine to restore the teachings of the bible to these "noble savages". This was accomplished by providing the herero with 40 to 60 000 demonstrations that a 7.92x57mm bullet could penetrate the head of even the strongest practitioner of african voodoo."

Not to mention ghettos gassing shooting and slavery.

You truly are a blind man

Edited November 11, 2009 by Peter F

[kimmy]

The war was still Germany's prerogative.

Blaming Western financiers for bankrolling Hitler and Stalin is the equivalent of blaming the IMF and World Bank for bankrolling corrupt African dictators, rebels, and Latin American left and right wing paramilitaries. Only so much blame can be tossed around before we must point fingers at those doing the actual shooting.

I could very easily bully someone to the point where it was inevitable that they try to hit me, but trying to hit me would still be their prerogative. It doesn't mean I've acted intelligently or excuse my role in the violence that ensues.

-k

[Sir Bandelot]

If we are to call a people "bad" based on the numbers they've killed in a war, Stalin murdered ten times more than Hitler. The US... don't even do body counts no more.

Edited November 11, 2009 by Sir Bandelot

[Strangles]

I could very easily bully someone to the point where it was inevitable that they try to hit me, but trying to hit me would still be their prerogative. It doesn't mean I've acted intelligently or excuse my role in the violence that ensues.

-k

Was Germany bullied?

Did the USSR provoke Germany?

Edited November 11, 2009 by Strangles

[Strangles]

Is the IMF not in the wrong in doing this? I mean do you not realize that the IMF IS responsible for many wars, and genocides? I don't absolve the IMF of any blame just as I cannot make the financiers of the great and useless fratricidal war in europe... They are guilty of genocide, and worse: TREASON. and they should not go unpunished.

As the for Herero "genocide" well.. you can blame Christianity for that...

The poor German missionaries were reffering to the Herero and other malodorous tribes as "nboble savages" who (of course) must receive Christ to make them "equal" in the eyes of the lord. The Chrisitan missionaries in other words were animated by the same insane unreason that modern liberals (who constantly meddle in the affairs of non-white, non western people)... the primitive Christian desire for equality...

However, in 1905, the herero just as the the MajiMaji in Tanganyika, murdered all the missionaries and almost all the white men and women in the territory, and so the Germans shipped over an entire German Grenadier Regiment and numerous companies of kriegsmarine to restore the teachings of the bible to these "noble savages". This was accomplished by providing the herero with 40 to 60 000 demonstrations that a 7.92x57mm bullet could penetrate the head of even the strongest practitioner of african voodoo.

Maji Maji? Never heard of it until now, but I looked it up and looks like another example of an African uprising, where eventually Africans got exactly what they wanted. Wiki says:

"The Maji Maji uprising was the greatest challenge to German colonial rule in Africa. Its suppression changed the history of southern Tanzania. Tens, perhaps hundreds of thousands of people died or were displaced from their homes. In the wake of the war, the imperial government instituted administrative reforms so that, by the outbreak of the First World War, Tanganyika could be said to be among the better-administered European colonies in Africa. The rebellion became a focal point in the history of the region. Later Tanzanian nationalists used it as an example of the first stirrings of Tanzanian nationalism, a unifying experience that brought together all the different peoples of Tanzania under one leader in an attempt to establish a nation free from foreign domination."

Reminds me of the Mau Mau Rebellion, wiki says:

"Despite the fact that the British military had won a clear victory, Kenyans had been granted nearly all of the demands made by the KAU in 1951 as the carrot to the military's stick. In June 1956, a program of villagization and land reform consolidated the land holdings of the Kikuyu, thereby increasing the number of Kikuyu allied with the colonial government. This was coupled with a relaxation of the ban on Africans growing coffee, a primary cash crop, leading to a dramatic rise in the income of small farmers over the next ten years.

In the cities the colonial authorities decided to dispel tensions after Operation Anvil by raising urban wages, thereby strengthening the hand of moderate union organizations like the KFRTU. By 1956, the British had granted direct election of African members of the Legislative Assembly, followed shortly thereafter by an increase in the number of African seats to fourteen. A Parliamentary conference in January 1960 indicated that the British would accept "one person — one vote" majority rule"

Just as a topic digression, looking at the Historical pattern, I can understand why Africa was only colonized for 50-70 years as opposed to the indefinite colonization of the Americas.

Determination for self rule, combined with consistent uprisings forced Europeans to retreat and by the 1980s to eventually bail from even their most advanced colonies.

Perhaps the Indians of the Americas could've learned some lessons from the Africans about counter-colonialism.

Anyhow...I digress .

[Shwa]

"Perhaps the Indians of the Americas could've learned some lessons from the Africans about counter-colonialism."

Dead Indians don't learn many lessons. Well, likely not the kind that mattered when it came to colonialism. You have to remember that before there was any form of a real European power base in North America, most Indians had been wiped out by disease. It was only this void that allowed a strong European foothold in the colonies.

However, modern Indians in Canada have section 25 of the Charter to counteract any active colonialism nowadays.

Darn. Now we both digressed!

[kimmy]

Was Germany bullied?

Did the USSR provoke Germany?

I used the word "bullied" to illustrate how I could make somebody throw the first punch at me.

Whether "bullied" is an accurate description of the terms imposed on Germany after WWI isn't really the question. I think many historians are of the belief that the terms imposed on Germany after WWI made further conflict inevitable.

And my point is that if I treat someone in such a way as to make it inevitable that they will want or need to fight me, then I've acted badly.

-k

[GostHacked]

The Berlin Wall is gone and Germany has become a better place because of it. Families and friends have been reunited after decades of being separated for security.

We are glad the Iron Curtain is gone, we should also be glad the Berlin Wall is no longer as well. Sure we need to be reminded and never forget of the time when it was in place, as well as celebrate the reunification of a people.

Fences, barriers and walls separate us and keeps us separated, even in todays society.

[DogOnPorch]

Fences, barriers and walls separate us and keeps us separated, even in todays society.

True enough; other physical walls have their own reason for going-up. The Berlin Wall and the Iron Curtain through Europe were for stopping the mass movement of people towards the West.

Some walls are more effective than others...the McNamara Line being an example of ineffective. The US-Mexico wall might be thought of as partially effective. The North Korea/South Korean border...very effective.

[bush_cheney2004]

Ironically, the Berlin Wall was also an indirect ticket to freedom. Thousands of lucky souls could march right up to a Stasi guard and announce an intention to escape, get promptly arrested and jailed, and wait for the West to pay for their "liberation" to West Germany. Win-win.

[Oleg Bach]

When dealing with Oleg, keep in mind he believes the Nazis were actually Jewish.

Family feuds go back for thousands of years. At this point Germany is of no threat. Due to a generation of social engineering the average German male is girlified and super liberal - they are a deballed race..and righfully so - IF YOU had to live with a mother that was raped by Nazis and a father that was tormented by communists and National Socialists..who was scared by these creeps with their ideas of domination --- and YOU had to suffer a childhood living with parents who both suffered severe post tramatic stress - Perhaps you would want to punish this old tribe for a few generations - the effect of Germany and their evil deeds even effect my own offsping to a degree - socially economically and emotionally - If I were the allied forces - I would have removed all of them from the face of the earth.

My mother did get her revenge - once the prison camp was bombed out - she took some amo and a pistol and walked the streets of Berlin entering households asking for food in clothing - She would ask the wives of German soldiers where their husbands where. If they answered "at the Russian front" she shot them dead and robbed the household - I guess she wanted her rapist to come home and find that justice was served - that the person he raped...had no wife..all is fair....now getting back to the German Jewish issue - of course Jews assisted in the killing of Jews..LOOK at the scientist who developed the gas for the killing camps - He was Jewish....explain that?

[DogOnPorch]

LOOK at the scientist who developed the gas for the killing camps - He was Jewish....explain that?

Zyklon-B was developed by Dr. Fritz Haber of IG Farben/Testa. Sorry Oleg...not a Jew. Try again.