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Gunman kills 12, wounds 30 at Fort Hood


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Lictor,

as if the media even talked about a failure of multiculturalism to begin with! You live in a world of fantasy. The media completely ignores the elephant in the room in the form of the dangers of multiculturalism and failed integration! COMPLETELY...

anyhoozle! back to stuffing our heads in the sand...

yup everything is fine.... diversity is our strength... keep telling yourself that until we have a mass race war on our hands..

Lictor, in case you haven't noticed - nobody is buying this. You can't even convince people on this board that there's logic to your points. Rather than try to outline some rational basis for your beliefs, you continually post that people have their heads in the sand or that the media is ignoring things.

Pay attention - nobody is convinced about these multiculturalist conspiracy theories you espouse and that's why they get no play.

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Lictor,

Lictor, in case you haven't noticed - nobody is buying this. You can't even convince people on this board that there's logic to your points. Rather than try to outline some rational basis for your beliefs, you continually post that people have their heads in the sand or that the media is ignoring things.

Pay attention - nobody is convinced about these multiculturalist conspiracy theories you espouse and that's why they get no play.

perhaps you could tell me exactly where the media has roundly condemned this act as proof of multiculturalism and "forced integration's" failure... as the previous poster suggests... because I for one cannot see it...

nobody is buying that the media is doing all it can to ignore and circumlocute its way around the obvious central fact: which is that DIVERSITY IS A WEAKNESS and a LIABILITY ... not a strength...? Really?

they must think that the experience of dodging bullets is a "strength"...

seriously I fail to see how anyone could not draw the necessary and inescapable deductions from this story..

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Gun MEN ???

Up to 3 gunmen reported.

1st shooter was killed. Two other suspects being hunted.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6NhBATAU8w

Possibly two shooters

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4ahfa9VlUo

Again, maybe two shooters.

Lots of conflicting reports about how many gunmen, when the gunman(men) was killed, where the gunman is hospitalized.

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Lictor, then where exactly are you getting your information from, that this was due to excessive political correctness in the military?

I don't have my head in the sand. It may be true that this is because of political correctness, but I don't assume things. And quite often I don't believe things, just because the media says so. We should all know what happens when we assume.

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The media completely ignores the elephant in the room

You're exactly right. Case in point, ABC News, who's anchors, and I quote "wished his name was Smith" because they were worried of a so-called reflexive question as to his religious motives.

Heads in the sand. Don't want their false illusions destroyed.

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Shady,

You're exactly right. Case in point, ABC News, who's anchors, and I quote "wished his name was Smith" because they were worried of a so-called reflexive question as to his religious motives.

Heads in the sand. Don't want their false illusions destroyed.

You're wrong. They were quoting the wife of a soldier.

See ? I can provide a link: http://newsbusters.org/blogs/scott-whitlock/2009/11/06/abc-s-diane-sawyer-repeats-concern-wishing-muslim-shooter-s-name-was

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Lictor,

perhaps you could tell me exactly where the media has roundly condemned this act as proof of multiculturalism and "forced integration's" failure... as the previous poster suggests... because I for one cannot see it...

nobody is buying that the media is doing all it can to ignore and circumlocute its way around the obvious central fact: which is that DIVERSITY IS A WEAKNESS and a LIABILITY ... not a strength...? Really?

they must think that the experience of dodging bullets is a "strength"...

seriously I fail to see how anyone could not draw the necessary and inescapable deductions from this story..

They haven't done so, because it's not proof of multiculturalism's failure - not by a longshot.

As I already explained - your "facts" aren't facts to the rest of the thinking world, which is why you shouldn't be surprised that they're not reported on the news as such.

You need to understand that you're different from other folks, and that's why the world doesn't work the way you expect it to.

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Great post! Here is what I am really suggesting. My father served during WW2 - All of his friends had seen combat famine and plunder. They would get together at dinner parties and later drink..I can safely say that all were mentally ill including my father.

No human being on earth can take the life of another human being and not pay the price of becoming crazy because of the act. No human being can have nation - tradition and ancestory destroyed and not develope a sense of vengence...This guy that lost his mind and killed his fellow soldiers is the product of killing - Live by the sword die by the sword as they say - and America and most so-called civilized nations still practice that age old cultish tradition of human sacrafice which is lunacey. Whether it be through war - or other means - blood sacrafice always leads to illness of all involved. Metal illness will always be the by product of violence - THAT IS JUST A PHYSICAL FACT OF HUMAN EXISTANCE.

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Great post! Here is what I am really suggesting. My father served during WW2 - All of his friends had seen combat famine and plunder. They would get together at dinner parties and later drink..I can safely say that all were mentally ill including my father.

No human being on earth can take the life of another human being and not pay the price of becoming crazy because of the act. No human being can have nation - tradition and ancestory destroyed and not develope a sense of vengence...This guy that lost his mind and killed his fellow soldiers is the product of killing - Live by the sword die by the sword as they say - and America and most so-called civilized nations still practice that age old cultish tradition of human sacrafice which is lunacey. Whether it be through war - or other means - blood sacrafice always leads to illness of all involved. Metal illness will always be the by product of violence - THAT IS JUST A PHYSICAL FACT OF HUMAN EXISTANCE.

I'm sure that would make for a fine speech at an ant-war rally at UC Berkeley, or a similar institution. However, it has little if nothing to do with the shooting at Fort Hood. This particular individual was never deployed, and never saw any combat anywhere. His motivation was purely political and religious. He was a radical Islamic individual, who committed a terrorist act.

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No human being on earth can take the life of another human being and not pay the price of becoming crazy because of the act. - blood sacrafice always leads to illness of all involved. Metal illness will always be the by product of violence - THAT IS JUST A PHYSICAL FACT OF HUMAN EXISTANCE.

We are not doing enough to help all soldiers deal with their experience in a war. The number of suicides and mental illness is quite high now, and still on the rise- as I alluded earlier in this thread.

Edited by Sir Bandelot
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We are not doing enough to help all soldiers deal with their experience in a war. The number of suicides and mental illness is quite high now, and still on the rise- as I alluded earlier in this thread.

The shooter had no experience in a war. He had never been to Iraq. He had never been to Afghanistan. He had never seen combat. He had only served in Virgina, and Texas.

Or maybe this was the first ever case of pre-post tramatic stress disorder? :lol:

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Pliny, why are you not reading my posts? I never said anything remotely suggesting that the American military be wrathful upon its Muslim servicepersons. Why are you so deceitfully misrepresenting my words? I explicitly stated that an individual's religion is MEANINGLESS when investigating his/her criminal motivations outside of a complete context. Being a Muslim IS NOT a red flag. I cannot make this any clearer and I will not repeat myself. But when taken in the context of what we now know about this individual, his perspective of Islam is a piece of the puzzle in analyzing his motivations. He held extremist political positions, which are often connected with extremist religious positions. In no way does this case lead a rational person to believe that Muslims are now suspect. In no way does this case lead a rational person that we must be extra careful with Muslims. You are desperately trying to paint this as an issue of discrimination or prejudice against Muslims, when nothing could be further from the truth.

I read your posts. And you are of the opinion that this was the act of a religious extremist. The question you seem to be leading others to ask is that we better scrutinize how many other religious extremists are in the armed forces.

I think it would be more appropriate to take off the blinders and eliminate political correctness in the military AND society in general. Hasan's frame of mind should not have been excused by his ethnic/religious background.

Political correctness comes about as a reaction to prejudice or racism where we just ignore any evidence that may contain any hint of prejudice.

With respect to whether or not he was medicated or not, you are the one who is speculating here. The perspective that he was an extremist (religiously and politically) and that his ideology was the primary motivation behind his mass murder is based on a lot of information that has already been unearthed regarding this case. There is no evidence to suggest that he was either mentally ill (he seemed 100% sound of mind to neighbours in the days leading up to the crime, as he began giving away his positions, so we know at the very least that this was a premeditated mass murder) or medicated. We'll see how accurate your "98% certainty" turns out to be.

Yes. We'll see.

It seems to me that you are a dishonest poster who is not here to have a serious discussion. Rather, you accuse me of being prejudice when I took extra care to emphasize that Islam is not some sort of liability or risk factor in a soldier (because I anticipated the knee-jerk argument that you would propose). Get back to me when you want to have an honest and intelligent discussion.

I know you took "extra care" to emphasize Islam is not a liability or risk factor in a soldier. That is the exact politically correct statement that I find blinds us to the truth.

Listen, I understand exactly what you are saying, I read your posts, and I understand the point of view you are presenting - many people will agree with you. I am of the opinion that finding political/religious extremism is the strawman in the incident and it would be a sad conclusion.

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I'm sure that would make for a fine speech at an ant-war rally at UC Berkeley, or a similar institution. However, it has little if nothing to do with the shooting at Fort Hood. This particular individual was never deployed, and never saw any combat anywhere. His motivation was purely political and religious. He was a radical Islamic individual, who committed a terrorist act.

That's more that likely true. Berkeley? I spent five minutes there back in the early 70s and did not see an audience worth speaking too. What smashes my argument is the one phrase uttered by this jerk before he started to unload..."God is great" - in other words he was assisting God in the murdering of these people - THAT would make this Islamic and all others like him infidels. IF God is ALMIGHTY..and has been birthing and killing human beings and most all other life formes for eons - Then to kill in his name would be to say that God is weak and needs help - that he is not all mighty and sovereign over the universe - in effect it would be to say that God is not God and he is a mere chump.

Logic dictates that God does not need help. So who is commanding these people to kill in the name of the universal force and master? Well it must be those in human form. Who would these men be who have taken on the mantel of God? I would say they are common crimminals. The sooner we understand that this man and others like him are made dupe by some high priest some where - the better we will be able to deal with the problem. This was an Islamic mafia hit. It has nothing to do with God - and for this idiot to utter God is great - makes him clearly to be what he is - and educated idiot and pawn.

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Lictor,

They haven't done so, because it's not proof of multiculturalism's failure - not by a longshot.

As I already explained - your "facts" aren't facts to the rest of the thinking world, which is why you shouldn't be surprised that they're not reported on the news as such.

You need to understand that you're different from other folks, and that's why the world doesn't work the way you expect it to.

Diversity can be a plus but it can hardly be considered so under coercion. Lictor is being forced to live with diversity. As long as he is forced he will point to it's failings.

Multiculturalism is State intrusion on it's own culture. Lictor is being honest and I think the undercurrent of any animosity between cultures is suppressed by political correctness. I don't say Lictor is correct in his prejudice but where it possibly stems from is the enforcement of him having to tolerate an infringement upon the culture with which he is familiar and likes.

Frankly, I like our culture, the culture of North America, the Judeo-Christian ethic and I wouldn't like to see it gone or overwhelmed by an influx of foreign cultures that - in my mind have been less successful in improving standards of living. Perhaps it is that success that must be eroded to make the "level playing field".

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There is a level playing field way down there near the bottom of the heap. As for the top of the heap - most are not allowed to participate in the game. If Lector wants to exclude himself from multi-culturalism..there is lots of phyical room left in Canada where he can closet himself and live the way he wants to. What Lector fails to understand it that it was greed and not social benevolence for all races and creeds that created multi-culturalism. It started when Lectors group of ancestors decided to bring in cheap labour in order to enrich themselves and maintain the status quo. Lector's tribe betrayed Lector and displaced one of their own sons. You would think that the founding anglos and francos would have been loyal to their own kind..but money seems to have the greatest seductive power - Lector should blame his own race and class for the fact that he was pushed aside.

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Pliny

Diversity can be a plus but it can hardly be considered so under coercion. Lictor is being forced to live with diversity. As long as he is forced he will point to it's failings. Multiculturalism is State intrusion on it's own culture. Lictor is being honest and I think the undercurrent of any animosity between cultures is suppressed by political correctness. I don't say Lictor is correct in his prejudice but where it possibly stems from is the enforcement of him having to tolerate an infringement upon the culture with which he is familiar and likes.

Frankly, I don't much care about Lictor's feelings on this. This isn't a site for self-expression like some kind of poetry slam. It's for discussion. Myself, I base my views on facts so I'm interested in discussing them with others and testing them. But a lot of people want to come on here to broadcast their views without testing them. I suspect that they're afraid of change.

Coercion, state-instrusion, these are all relative terms that don't stir me to action. A stop sign could be considered state sponsored coercion if I wanted to define it that way: how DARE they dictate how I travel in my car ?

Frankly, I like our culture, the culture of North America, the Judeo-Christian ethic and I wouldn't like to see it gone or overwhelmed by an influx of foreign cultures that - in my mind have been less successful in improving standards of living. Perhaps it is that success that must be eroded to make the "level playing field".

North America - let's call it as it is - is America. Religion is part of it (sorry but I can't separate Judeo-Christian from other religions in this regard) but are individualistic freedom lovers as well as the mercantile class. Those are the three major groups who founded the continent and their presence is still felt today.

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Those that think religion and state are seperate don't understand that it was Judiac Christian doctrine that gave us the foundation for this luxury and freedom we enjoy today - You would think they would be thankful for the fine mind and ideas born by Jesus the Christ and his for bearers. We did well by Christianity - Look at the Hindus - or the Muslims etc..we surpassed them as far as material comfort and freedom - but as all things that bloom go to seed - we are becoming seedy.

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Gun MEN ???

Up to 3 gunmen reported.

1st shooter was killed. Two other suspects being hunted.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6NhBATAU8w

Possibly two shooters

Again, maybe two shooters.

Lots of conflicting reports about how many gunmen, when the gunman(men) was killed, where the gunman is hospitalized.

Stop lying about the story. The conflicting reports were only taking place during the first hours of this story breaking. You are posting links to information from the early hours of this story (during the hours of chaos) and portraying that as representative of what we now know about this case (and specifically about Major Hasan). Within less than 24 hours all of the misinformation had been clarified. Clearly you have not been following this story. Either follow the story, listen to press conferences, and read the most up-to-date information, or don't participate in this discussion.

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Even this old goat has learned that about this forum. Do your home work and take it seriously..be diligent or butt out. I know it must be tedious when one makes a good effort at providing solid and researched information on a subject and some lazy person perks up with his two cents worth..it clutters thread...and serves no real useful purpose. My first posting on this subject was done with out knowing anything..so I generalized and used life experience to at least contribute a little something. What is clear is that nothing will fully be clear untill they can talk to the alledged gunman. BUT once that is done - secrecy will set in if it does not serve American foreign policy.

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Stop lying about the story. Either follow the story, listen to press conferences, and read the most up-to-date information, or don't participate in this discussion.

If you wish to be treated with respect, as I expect you would, my advice is to try and show more respect to others yourself. You have accused a few now that they are liars, but people can simply be "mistaken". There is a difference. None of us has a monopoly on the truth, and it's easy in this age of information to be misled, despite what you may think of yourself.

It seemed to me earlier that Pliny agreed with you on most points, but you attacked him ad-hominem, which I thought was kind of unfair. His response proves I was right, he did agree with you, largely.

It's easy for us to misunderstand each other, in these rambling posts. So best to chill out a little, before you start telling us who can/ cannot be in a discussion...

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I read your posts. And you are of the opinion that this was the act of a religious extremist. The question you seem to be leading others to ask is that we better scrutinize how many other religious extremists are in the armed forces.

I think it would be more appropriate to take off the blinders and eliminate political correctness in the military AND society in general. Hasan's frame of mind should not have been excused by his ethnic/religious background.

Political correctness comes about as a reaction to prejudice or racism where we just ignore any evidence that may contain any hint of prejudice.

Yes. We'll see.

I know you took "extra care" to emphasize Islam is not a liability or risk factor in a soldier. That is the exact politically correct statement that I find blinds us to the truth.

Listen, I understand exactly what you are saying, I read your posts, and I understand the point of view you are presenting - many people will agree with you. I am of the opinion that finding political/religious extremism is the strawman in the incident and it would be a sad conclusion.

So let me get this straight - you dispute that the motivation(s) for Major Hasan's mass murder was ideological/policial/religious? If you cannot realize this obvious truth (at this point it is hardly speculation to suggest that his extreme views are what compelled him to commit mass murder), well, then I guess that's your own problem.

Lastly, I am not being "politically correct" by stating that being a Muslim IS NOT a risk factor for service in the American military. Over 3500 military servicepersons operate honourably in the American military. That being said, clearly "Islam" is not some static concept. Different Muslims observe differently, to different degrees and with different perspectives. Taken in the context of this story, though, the type of religiosity that Major Hasan subscribed to was a red flag, given everything else that is now known about him (specifically his extreme political opinions).

It seems to me as if you know what you're saying makes no sense, but you're trying to save face and continue arguing instead of admitting that what I am saying makes perfect sense.

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Guest American Woman

Now that he's conscious and able to talk, maybe we'll find out more.

No matter what he says, though, it won't change the fact that the students' complaints went unanswered; that nothing was done about them. Here's a military man who apparently not only said that suicide bombings are justified, but that the Koran overrules the Constitution.

The fact that there was nothing done about any of the information that was brought forward before this shooting took place is inexcusable. People in authority better start putting their responsibilities and the well being of others ahead of being "politically correct." Worrying about being 'non-discriminatory' to that degree is the other end of discrimination. There is such a thing as a sensible middle ground.

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Even this old goat has learned that about this forum. Do your home work and take it seriously..be diligent or butt out. I know it must be tedious when one makes a good effort at providing solid and researched information on a subject and some lazy person perks up with his two cents worth..it clutters thread...and serves no real useful purpose. My first posting on this subject was done with out knowing anything..so I generalized and used life experience to at least contribute a little something. What is clear is that nothing will fully be clear untill they can talk to the alledged gunman. BUT once that is done - secrecy will set in if it does not serve American foreign policy.

We don't need to talk to the gunman to clarify things. There is enough information about this case to already draw reasonable conclusions. I am not suggesting that the investigation be stopped now, but what I reject is the supposition that we should reserve judgement until "all the facts" come out. Enough information has been revealed about this killer for reasonable people to draw reasonable conclusions about who he is and what his motivations were.

An interesting article about this story - "Inside the Gunman's Mosque"

From Newsweek, written by Asra Nomani

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What is clear right now is that we really know nothing, and are arguing about what we know.

That's absolutely not true. That's just more 'head in the sand' thinking.

Officials: U.S. Aware of Hasan Efforts to Contact al Qaeda

U.S. intelligence agencies were aware months ago that Army Major Nidal Malik Hasan was attempting to make contact with people associated with al Qaeda, two American officials briefed on classified material in the case told ABC News.

ABC News

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