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What happens after 2011, for Canada and Afghanistan


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Using one bench mark as far as legitimacy. That benchmark to me would be...If opium production goes down with our envolvement then it's an honourable endevour. If it has risen since we have been there then that becomes questionable.

If the whole war was about drugs i'd agree....kind of hard to put a dent in drugs when your still running around hunting bad guys...and what efforts has anyone done to replace the poppie crop for the farmers....got any ideas...or should we just add them to the bad guy lists....and feed them a 5.56 rd as well....

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Sorry I forgot that part. That as "peace keepers" you were not allowed to fly your own banner - that you dawned the little blue hats and became non-entities ..no very many people respect the UN at this point in time..not the primatives or the smarter acedemics. The Russians were hated there - The Americans were hated there - and now Canada is distrusted. Tell me - does the average local know the difference between a Canadian service person and an American one? Do we still carry any weight as being good guys?

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Sorry I forgot that part. That as "peace keepers" you were not allowed to fly your own banner - that you dawned the little blue hats and became non-entities ..no very many people respect the UN at this point in time..not the primatives or the smarter acedemics.

The UN did it to themselfs, by crating RO&E that prevented us from stopping tragies before they happened...look at bosina, and the dutch ask them if they have any love for the UN....ask Rwanda if they have love for the UN....How effective do you think our police force would be if all they could do is report crimes...not stop them....

The Russians were hated there - The Americans were hated there - and now Canada is distrusted. Tell me - does the average local know the difference between a Canadian service person and an American one? Do we still carry any weight as being good guys?

Is it distrusted, got any proof to back that up....The locals can tell you more about the Canadian military than the average Canadian can...so yes i'm sure they know exactly whom they are dealing with at any given time...This is not about are why loved more than the Americans, it's about the taliban and in regards to them yes us and the US and ranked as the good guys..

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Thanks, you would know. Seems you hit on something important. The UN is a strange beast these days - The place if full of idealogs that range from those that quietly advocate the de-population of Africa to those that want to see all boarders and cultures blended into a pale brown utlitiatian soup. The UN is still living off of their reputation form the 60's - when we as kids actually thought of it as being a grand idea to unite the world - Instead they want to rebuild and world in their own image---I think they are a waste of time.

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If the whole war was about drugs i'd agree....kind of hard to put a dent in drugs when your still running around hunting bad guys...and what efforts has anyone done to replace the poppie crop for the farmers....got any ideas...or should we just add them to the bad guy lists....and feed them a 5.56 rd as well....

What if we simply poisioned the crop with Agent Orange - then turned the whole nation into a welfare state - where we sent them all the aid they wanted - might be cheaper?

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"i can give you dozens of reasons to stay, but thier mine, and you won't like them..."

It doesn't matter if I will like them or not, it matters if they can stand as valid or rational. Remember, I am your typical Canuck on the issue so give me your reasons, I'll at least give you a listen...

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I'm sure he has access to alot more intel than i do, but is he using it to base his remarks on.....he has a record of not listening to advisors or advice, he also has a record of not standing up for his mistakes....

Though maybe Harper has earned him a reputation of what you said, but I doubt there are any "advisors" who have ever offered him or the PM before him an viable plan to win the war.

As the Canadian conservative boss and a well-known long-standing "Bush's war" supporting politician, I bet that his conclusion of "the war is unwinnable" is just because no one, even neither Bush nor Obama---the boss of NATO and the mission, could offer him a practicable plan of how to win the war, though there maybe has a plan of how to avoid to lose the war just as you have been offering here all the time.

Nonetheless, I think Karzai-kinds will survive in power after NATO troops withdraw from Afghanistan if western countries still economically prop their regime. People should not forget that the regime propped by Soviet had survived many years after soviet troops's withdrawal until Soviet was about collapse. Taliban is a tribal army, their power comes from these tribal areas which support them but also is limited in these areas.

Edited by xul
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Oh, does anyone know why the Americans put up such a bitter war in Vietnam? Is Islam the new Communism?

There is a big difference between Islam, and the radical, violent, fundamentalist version of Islam that those like al-Qaeda believe. You should choose your words more carefully.

But it's a good point, radical fundamentalist Islam may be the new Communism.

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There is a big difference between Islam, and the radical, violent, fundamentalist version of Islam that those like al-Qaeda believe. You should choose your words more carefully.

But it's a good point, radical fundamentalist Islam may be the new Communism.

...or....it could just be the new imaginary enemy the US needs to exercise its multi-billion dollar military. There is no point in maintain that kind of weaponry without being able to use it....and the Black Panthers are no longer a viable target....

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"You should choose your words more carefully."

Why should I choose my words more carefully?

https://www.adbusters.org/files/media/flash/hope_and_memory/timeline.swf

There is a big difference between the radical, violent, fundamentalist version of communism and the more social oriented communist preachings, especially in Western countries. But all communists were/are painted with the same brush at one time. The point being - as charter.rights pointed out, that Islam could be the face of the new enemy. Not only as a focus for all those billions and billions of military-industrial spending, but heck, it sells alot of movie tickets and newspapers too! Keeps millions employed and paying taxes, etc.

Perhaps the unsaid reason we are still in Afghanistan is to have a military foothold in a volatile region in which we can launch surgical strikes against fundamentalist Islamic regimes that harbour unfriendlies, terrorists, threaten oil supplies and whose stated goal is to dominate the world and threaten freedom and democracy. Doesn't that sounds somewhat familiar?

Or has someone already said this on these boards? Just asking...

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It doesn't matter if I will like them or not, it matters if they can stand as valid or rational. Remember, I am your typical Canuck on the issue so give me your reasons, I'll at least give you a listen...

I don't mean to sounding like a jerk , but your right, it does not matter if you like them, or if they stand as valid or rational reasons...They are what motivates me into believing that this mission is an honorable one,one worth all the time,effort,blood, sweat and tears our soldiers have given.

1. Defense agreements that we have signed with the USofA, our closest niebour,allied,trading patner.

2. Defense agreements we have signed with NATO.

3. We have a responsability to finsih the job we started, we assisted in removing another government in power in the nation of Afghan, we also have the responsibility to ensure we assist in rebuilding that in which we destroyed, so it can stand on it's own, and defend itself from it's enemies.

4. We've given our word as Canadians, that we where there to help assist the Afghan government to rebuild thier nation out of the ashes of war...I don't recall when we started this whole thing, that we would put a time line on it...Lets remember that it was Canada that offered to help....and our word should mean something...not when the going gets rough we quit...

5. Our nations military reputation, and while this is not a concern for most Canadians, Never in our history have we just stood up and quit because the job was becoming to deadly, or tough...and frankly todays soldiers don't want to carry that around. for serveral reasons. our allieds respect, the Afghan peoples respect, world opinion...remember how Canadains wore that peacekeeping badge around thier neck so proudly.

6. To quit would mean that our blood sweat and tears contribution to this mission would be deminished or for nothing...and the final objective was not accomplished which is freedom, and peace within Afghan...

And while Canadians will disagree with this way of thinking some say it will only become a worse situation in the future...you have to remember that the Canadian soldier does not quit, we are picked, trained, and drilled, that quiting is not an opition...it is built into our personalities....We owe it to our fallen to suceed...for us soldiers there is more at stake here than just feeling good about the job that has already been accomplished...

7. Our nation is one that has so much to offer, not just Afghan but the rest of the world as well. But we are a nation that has to be shocked into given anything up, Here in Afghan is a chance for us to show not only the Afghan people but the rest of the world that we are willing to share our freedoms, our values, our wealth to those less fortunate....That we are living up to not only our Defense agreements but also our G-8 responsibilties as well..

8. Personally in my 3 tours in Afghan i've meet some incrediable people, Afghan military people that have dedicated thier lives and have lost so much in this strugle...Afghan locals that really want some of these freedoms we offer...and to a small girl who i had the honor of sharing my lunch with one day on patrol...these people i would have a tough time looking into thier eyes and telling them we are leaving because our nation has grown tired of this conflict...

There are others but i'll stop here...

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I don't mean to sounding like a jerk , but your right, it does not matter if you like them, or if they stand as valid or rational reasons...They are what motivates me into believing that this mission is an honorable one,one worth all the time,effort,blood, sweat and tears our soldiers have given.

1. Defense agreements that we have signed with the USofA, our closest niebour,allied,trading patner.

2. Defense agreements we have signed with NATO.

3. We have a responsability to finsih the job we started, we assisted in removing another government in power in the nation of Afghan, we also have the responsibility to ensure we assist in rebuilding that in which we destroyed, so it can stand on it's own, and defend itself from it's enemies.

4. We've given our word as Canadians, that we where there to help assist the Afghan government to rebuild thier nation out of the ashes of war...I don't recall when we started this whole thing, that we would put a time line on it...Lets remember that it was Canada that offered to help....and our word should mean something...not when the going gets rough we quit...

5. Our nations military reputation, and while this is not a concern for most Canadians, Never in our history have we just stood up and quit because the job was becoming to deadly, or tough...and frankly todays soldiers don't want to carry that around. for serveral reasons. our allieds respect, the Afghan peoples respect, world opinion...remember how Canadains wore that peacekeeping badge around thier neck so proudly.

6. To quit would mean that our blood sweat and tears contribution to this mission would be deminished or for nothing...and the final objective was not accomplished which is freedom, and peace within Afghan...

And while Canadians will disagree with this way of thinking some say it will only become a worse situation in the future...you have to remember that the Canadian soldier does not quit, we are picked, trained, and drilled, that quiting is not an opition...it is built into our personalities....We owe it to our fallen to suceed...for us soldiers there is more at stake here than just feeling good about the job that has already been accomplished...

7. Our nation is one that has so much to offer, not just Afghan but the rest of the world as well. But we are a nation that has to be shocked into given anything up, Here in Afghan is a chance for us to show not only the Afghan people but the rest of the world that we are willing to share our freedoms, our values, our wealth to those less fortunate....That we are living up to not only our Defense agreements but also our G-8 responsibilties as well..

8. Personally in my 3 tours in Afghan i've meet some incrediable people, Afghan military people that have dedicated thier lives and have lost so much in this strugle...Afghan locals that really want some of these freedoms we offer...and to a small girl who i had the honor of sharing my lunch with one day on patrol...these people i would have a tough time looking into thier eyes and telling them we are leaving because our nation has grown tired of this conflict...

There are others but i'll stop here...

That was a very moving post.

Thank you for your service and sacrifice.

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...and to a small girl who i had the honor of sharing my lunch with one day on patrol...

This is a good honourable reason for staying alright but its not why we went. If it was I would have supported you all the way.

I'm not going to argue against using our military to save little kids from dictators, in fact I think this would be all the reason we need for having a military and I'd support putting our military funding on par with our performance during WW2 if that's what it takes to make the world a better place for kids.

Before we do though I'd still like to know why we and our allies aren't in Burma? Surely we don't need treaties or alliances to act in the face of our responsibility to protect.

I won't be surprised if were still in Afghanistan for decades myself but what happens after that? Do we send the military to the Arctic or Burma?

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For some reason, your prevaricating hypocritical snivelling irrelevancies don't interest me.

Okay, so pretend I'm not here and imagine its a little kid from Burma who's pointing at the little kids in Afgahnaistan and asking you "what about us", what would you say?

F-off kid, for some reason I just don't care?

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I guess it comes down how many lives are we willing to lose and how much money are we willing to lose? Just look at what happened to Russia and the US is close to that point now. There just too much to do in Afghanistan and the Taliban have the advantage and this is another no-win war.

You have NO idea what happened to Russia, do you?

Over 13,000 dead over 9 years....

And the Us..no wait, lets take ALL OF NATO

1515 in around 9 years.

Would you like a do over?

Edited by M.Dancer
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I guess it comes down how many lives are we willing to lose and how much money are we willing to lose?

There's no end to these when it comes down to war unfortunately.

It should have come down to how many principles we had to give up a long long time ago, even more unfortunately we only have a few left to give. But what the hey, once they're all gone we'll have nothing left to lose.

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This is a good honourable reason for staying alright but its not why we went. If it was I would have supported you all the way.

I'm not going to argue against using our military to save little kids from dictators, in fact I think this would be all the reason we need for having a military and I'd support putting our military funding on par with our performance during WW2 if that's what it takes to make the world a better place for kids.

Before we do though I'd still like to know why we and our allies aren't in Burma? Surely we don't need treaties or alliances to act in the face of our responsibility to protect.

I won't be surprised if were still in Afghanistan for decades myself but what happens after that? Do we send the military to the Arctic or Burma?

I never said it was why we went, i said it was what motivates me in to returning. Burma was the best example you could could find, not Dafar, or for that matter most of the African continent...

Our current Military is the size it is because Canadians want it that way, yes they are concerned about it, and what we do with it, but when they see the price tag that concern drops , in favour of something that dirrectly effects them today, right now....and your not going to change that, so for now our country is a one mission at a time...Burma, Dafar are all going to have to wait...

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I never said it was why we went, i said it was what motivates me in to returning. Burma was the best example you could could find, not Dafar, or for that matter most of the African continent...

Our current Military is the size it is because Canadians want it that way, yes they are concerned about it, and what we do with it, but when they see the price tag that concern drops , in favour of something that dirrectly effects them today, right now....and your not going to change that, so for now our country is a one mission at a time...Burma, Dafar are all going to have to wait...

One mission at a time...unfortunately we got sucked into tackling the toughest country on the planet. We should have started with the easy one's first and then, this 2nd point is an important one, recruited soldiers from that liberated population to help with the 2nd mission and so on.

Why we're training Afghans and building up their national army now is a bit of a mystery to me. They've given the bums rush to more super-rogues than anyone on the planet. If anyone should be teaching other countries how to defend themselves it's Afghanistan. Somehow I doubt the ANA is going to be used for defence however. Given the corruption that permeates it already I suspect it'll be more similar to the army in Burma, except it probably won't stand a chance against its own people for very long.

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One mission at a time...unfortunately we got sucked into tackling the toughest country on the planet. We should have started with the easy one's first and then, this 2nd point is an important one, recruited soldiers from that liberated population to help with the 2nd mission and so on.

We did not get sucked into anything, we were living up to one of our most important defence agreements we've signed...And after Korea we've been taking all the easy ones, or not doing anything at all, except maybe a little peace keeping...It was time we stepped up, and we did...we'll just have to suck it up.

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We did not get sucked into anything, we were living up to one of our most important defence agreements we've signed...

Except that the mission in Afghanistan is an offensive campaigne.

Ordinary Canadians have an extremely limited amount of say in who our politicians pick as our allies. Apparently a lot of people still think this is how it should be.

Don't forget when we take on an ally we also take on all the baggage they're packing.

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