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What happens after 2011, for Canada and Afghanistan


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Do they speak for the government? No. Does their opinion on what "could" happen matter at all? No.

Until I hear that the government has definitively ruled out a change if an election produces a majority, it remains an open question.

At the moment, the government is angling to keep troops in place while somehow redefining what their job is.

As some of the critics around the world have pointed out, it doesn't matter what a foreign soldier's role is, they are still in a combat situation if they are out in the country-side.

It's the reporter who should be lumped in the the Liberal party, if anyone, or at least the shitty journalist party.

The extreme right wing complains about a hidden agenda of the media while saying they themselves don't have one?

I think it is Harper himself that says Conservatives can't be conservatives while in a minority. I'd love to know what means on a variety of issues including Afghanistan.

All I hear is that it is impossible that he will break the 2011 rule. Well, his promise means nothing since he can't even stick to fixed election dates.

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Until I hear that the government has definitively ruled out a change if an election produces a majority, it remains an open question.

Again, if you're suggesting an majority election result is the event that will change the direction of the military, that's an easy question for the government to answer. The answer is obvious. Why aren't they asked this do you think?

At the moment, the government is angling to keep troops in place while somehow redefining what their job is.

Angling eh? :rolleyes:

As some of the critics around the world have pointed out, it doesn't matter what a foreign soldier's role is, they are still in a combat situation if they are out in the country-side.

Yes, if they're building hospitals like the NDP has always wanted, they're going to be shot at even if they're wearing peacekeeping uniforms. Is the Liberal position that Canada will no longer play any role in Afghanistan or any other situation where casualties could be involved?

The extreme right wing complains about a hidden agenda of the media while saying they themselves don't have one?

Who is the extreme right wing? Are you suggesting the Conservative government is extreme right wing? What is this hidden agenda? To be thrown out of office?

I think it is Harper himself that says Conservatives can't be conservatives while in a minority. I'd love to know what means on a variety of issues including Afghanistan.

You remind me of Les Nessman and his relentless communist conspiracy theories.

All I hear is that it is impossible that he will break the 2011 rule. Well, his promise means nothing since he can't even stick to fixed election dates.

So you're interested in learning about Harper's positions so you can dismiss them. lol

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Again, if you're suggesting an majority election result is the event that will change the direction of the military, that's an easy question for the government to answer. The answer is obvious. Why aren't they asked this do you think?

Harper has already said that if he had a majority, he would be doing different things. He won't be pinned down on specifics though.

Angling eh? :rolleyes:

We saw that last week with talk about how many military people will be staying. Or did you miss that?

Yes, if they're building hospitals like the NDP has always wanted, they're going to be shot at even if they're wearing peacekeeping uniforms. Is the Liberal position that Canada will no longer play any role in Afghanistan or any other situation where casualties could be involved?

Think the Liberal position is that Canada should withdraw from Afghanistan to re-group and to re-evaluate where we would best serve Canadian security and help Afghanistan.

I don't believe there is a non-combat role in Afghanistan and that as long as Pakistan remains a haven, it is impossible to secure Afghanistan. Only Afghanistan and Pakistan can secure their own countries.

Who is the extreme right wing? Are you suggesting the Conservative government is extreme right wing? What is this hidden agenda? To be thrown out of office?

Think I am suggesting certain posters are.

You remind me of Les Nessman and his relentless communist conspiracy theories.

You remind me of Rush Limbaugh with all his mainstream media conspiracy theories.

So you're interested in learning about Harper's positions so you can dismiss them. lol

And you are interested in hiding them so they can come to pass?

What is your view on the combat mission in Afghanistan past 2011?

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Harper has already said that if he had a majority, he would be doing different things. He won't be pinned down on specifics though.

Citation please.

We saw that last week with talk about how many military people will be staying. Or did you miss that?

If polls show the majority of Canadian want our soldiers to come home, why Harper isn't pulling out all the troops? Isn't a majority the key to unleashing his hidden agenda? How is he going to do the things that will ensure his political party doesn't form government for 20 years, if he doesn't govern by polls?

Think the Liberal position is that Canada should withdraw from Afghanistan to re-group and to re-evaluate where we would best serve Canadian security and help Afghanistan.

Imagine that.

I don't believe there is a non-combat role in Afghanistan and that as long as Pakistan remains a haven, it is impossible to secure Afghanistan. Only Afghanistan and Pakistan can secure their own countries.

If they were delivering flowers in Afghanistan there's a chance they might have to enter into combat. I wouldn't call that a combat role though. Afghanistan isn't at the point where it can secure itself.

Think I am suggesting certain posters are.

:lol: You're far closer to becoming the extreme right than I am. If Ignatieff goes there tomorrow, you'll be there. I'm more in the centre than anything.

You remind me of Rush Limbaugh with all his mainstream media conspiracy theories.

I usually criticize individual journalists but there are some outlets that are very political like FOX news and the Toronto Star. I wouldn't use the term conspiracy though. They've tailored their products to appeal to their audiences. Both media and politics are big business. That's why the whole hidden agenda propaganda doesn't fly. You'd like to think the Tories are going to have a fire sale if they get a majority. I'd suggest they'd govern with the intention of getting re-elected.

And you are interested in hiding them so they can come to pass?

That doesn't even make sense. I would like to know the government's intentions so I can have an opinion on them.

What is your view on the combat mission in Afghanistan past 2011?

As long as Afghanis are willing to sign up and fight for their freedom, I think we should be there to help if we can. I would be surprised if our soldiers wouldn't want to volunteer for a training role even if it is dangerous. They're far braver than our politicians.

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As Hillier said, if you are a soldier in Afghanistan, you are always going to be in combat mission, no matter what. I agree, our soldiers may not be in the south but they are going to be protecting themselves or others. No reconstruction can happen while the Taliban have the upper hand. I don't understand why there so much trouble the second time of driving the Taliban out.

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If they were delivering flowers in Afghanistan there's a chance they might have to enter into combat. I wouldn't call that a combat role though. Afghanistan isn't at the point where it can secure itself.

We used to have a saying in Afghan, it's not IF your going to get attacked outside the wire....it's just a matter of when your going to get hit in your journey...what can i say some days are good, some are shitty

I don't know what you call delivering anything with a full armoured column, but when you break it down...when i need 20 full 30 rd mags even before i get out of the bus....thats combat, when it takes a min of 3 amoured LAVS to escort just one veh thats combat....when i talk into the radio and then a small village disappears in flames and smoke ...thats combat....Now you can call it what ever you want, rebuilding , reconstruction, hell humanitarian aid....but when a soldier has access to this much fire power it's combat....And all canadian soldiers in Afghan are in combat....regardless of what they are doing....

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We used to have a saying in Afghan, it's not IF your going to get attacked outside the wire....it's just a matter of when your going to get hit in your journey...what can i say some days are good, some are shitty

I don't know what you call delivering anything with a full armoured column, but when you break it down...when i need 20 full 30 rd mags even before i get out of the bus....thats combat, when it takes a min of 3 amoured LAVS to escort just one veh thats combat....when i talk into the radio and then a small village disappears in flames and smoke ...thats combat....Now you can call it what ever you want, rebuilding , reconstruction, hell humanitarian aid....but when a soldier has access to this much fire power it's combat....And all canadian soldiers in Afghan are in combat....regardless of what they are doing....

Well it sounds like a hell of a fight. Too bad most of us have no idea how serious it is. All we hear is how wonderful and well its going, and then we hear less and less, and then, nothing. Except "send more troops..."

So at this point I'm beginning to say, to heck with this. What's in it for us, for Canada or our troops, or me. Nothing. Whats in it for our allies in Europe, who don't even want to be there, don't fight alongside of ours? Nothing. Whats in it for the Afghanis, who don't seem to want to help themselves by helping us? Nothing.

Time to cut and run.

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Geez. I waffle on whether or not I believe we need a role in Afghanistan. I have the basic understanding of the history of the place. A basic understanding of how things are going over there. Etc. I would say my view is typical.

But why are we there really? No one has come up with some definitive reason, just a lot of abstract speculation or wishful thinking. Security gap, narcotics control, poor foreign policy, to free the Afghan people, to remove the Taliban, because the Americans said and on and on.

Does anyone really know the real reason we are in Afghanistan? Debate that and you will find out what will happen after 2011. Oh, does anyone know why the Americans put up such a bitter war in Vietnam? Is Islam the new Communism?

A couple of things to ponder: even though it is almost impossible to source statistics - how many Canadian soldiers have died in Afghanistan compared to police & firefighter deaths in the line of duty over the same period?

Here's the LoD stats for Canadian soldiers:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Forces_casualties_in_Afghanistan

Not sure where you could find the LoD fatalities for our police and firefighters/

And it seems that most Canadian fatalities are due to IED's. It would seem to me that the military industry would have cutting edge research on detection for IED. Not only would this benefit all the soldiers in Afghanistan, but would have a pretty good civilian application as well. Anyone know how the researcg effort is going along these lines?

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But why are we there really? No one has come up with some definitive reason, just a lot of abstract speculation or wishful thinking. Security gap, narcotics control, poor foreign policy, to free the Afghan people, to remove the Taliban, because the Americans said and on and on.

Then you must know that disposing of a government of another nation has some responsibilities to it, Getting rid of the Taliban military, and governmental structure was the easy part...if one was to simple do that and walk away, it would not be long for the same type of government to re establish it self, and become a problem once again in the future...

We are assisting in rebuilding this nation so we don't leave the job half done. and don't have to come back in 6 mths to do it all over again.

And it seems that most Canadian fatalities are due to IED's. It would seem to me that the military industry would have cutting edge research on detection for IED. Not only would this benefit all the soldiers in Afghanistan, but would have a pretty good civilian application as well. Anyone know how the researcg effort is going along these lines?

For ever counter measure we take they take one as well, it's to bad our research costs bils of dollars and thier consists of putting more explosives in a hole....IED counter measures market is worht 10's of bils of dollars, in research alone, and triple that in equipment purchases across the NATO market.

CDN military has a small sampling of almost everything out there from vehs to jammers to what ever else you can think off. and while they have had good sucess in finding IED's the solution is never 100% accurate, you rarely find the media reporting on all the ones found and disarmed just the ones that detonated....

One has to remember that an IED can be as small as a hand grenade or as large as serveral thousand pounds of explosive... and man has not invented a veh or piece of equipment that can stop the destructive power of those large devices....As we build better vehs and equipment they build bigger bombs....

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"disposing of a government of another nation"

Yes. But why did we dispose of this government? I recall a whole lot of "reasons" because of Taliban morality, Al Queda bases, general terrorists, etc. But we are talking about Afghanistan, not Saudi Arabia.

I figure I am your typical Canadian who follows several news sources, reads topical books, etc and at this point it seems like there are no real good reasons to be there in the first place, let alone stay.

But if we had to stay, lets focus on the IEDs. Now, I know that research...billions and countermeasures, etc., but surely there is enough brain matter, ideas, money and R&D impetus to solve the IED problem once and for all. We have been to the moon and back several times for gawdsakes. Unless...

Unless there is no impetus to solve the problem because the death rate is acceptable in consideration of why we are there...

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....But if we had to stay, lets focus on the IEDs. Now, I know that research...billions and countermeasures, etc., but surely there is enough brain matter, ideas, money and R&D impetus to solve the IED problem once and for all. We have been to the moon and back several times for gawdsakes. Unless...

Unless there is no impetus to solve the problem because the death rate is acceptable in consideration of why we are there...

Well, the "death rate" is acceptable from government's view at cost-benefit analysis at least until 2011. But there is a huge R&D effort underway for the detection and disarming of IED's, tactics, armor, etc. The technical challenge is very difficult and comes in many forms, compared to mine clearing operations with existing technology and proven methods.

As for solving the IED problem once and for all....that will likely never happen.

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To bad Canada got off to such a bad start in Afghanistan. If we had entered the region in our traditional manner as peace keepers there would probably be peace by now - but Nooooo..we had to parrot the Americans - who cut that subversive little deal with the Yanks anyway...who subverted our noble knights into become dubed mercenary clones of the Americans?

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Yes. But why did we dispose of this government? I recall a whole lot of "reasons" because of Taliban morality, Al Queda bases, general terrorists, etc. But we are talking about Afghanistan, not Saudi Arabia.

Something about harboring the terroist group responsable for 9/11, and not willing to hand over Bin Ladin...And Yes we are talking about Afghan , and I do get your piont...

I figure I am your typical Canadian who follows several news sources, reads topical books, etc and at this point it seems like there are no real good reasons to be there in the first place, let alone stay.

I guess that would depend on what line in the sand you've drawn in order for you to take action....Would it have been enough if those 25 or more Canadians had been murdered in our streets, and what of those over 3000 Americans, What of our defense agreements with NATO, and the US...

I've done 3 tours over there in Afghan i can give you dozens of reasons to stay, but thier mine, and you won't like them...

But if we had to stay, lets focus on the IEDs. Now, I know that research...billions and countermeasures, etc., but surely there is enough brain matter, ideas, money and R&D impetus to solve the IED problem once and for all. We have been to the moon and back several times for gawdsakes. Unless...

Unless there is no impetus to solve the problem because the death rate is acceptable in consideration of why we are there...

IED's is only a method of attack, and they have many...and while it is a favorite it is not thier only method...like i said before 10's of billions are being spent on counter IED measures...but the problem is more complicated than just spotting a hole in the ground...or using a mine detector...hence why research is still ongoing...and while we sent a man to the moon, it did get there over night...

As for the Death rate, while it is low compared to the job we are doing, and consider how many ways death can be dealt out in this place...it remains high enough for our government to fork out billions on counter IED, purchase helo's, and other equipment...and if you remember our history that does not come easy, for our government to do...But it has no bearing on why we are here...

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Something about harboring the terroist group responsable for 9/11, and not willing to hand over Bin Ladin...And Yes we are talking about Afghan , and I do get your piont...

I guess that would depend on what line in the sand you've drawn in order for you to take action....Would it have been enough if those 25 or more Canadians had been murdered in our streets, and what of those over 3000 Americans, What of our defense agreements with NATO, and the US...

I've done 3 tours over there in Afghan i can give you dozens of reasons to stay, but thier mine, and you won't like them...

IED's is only a method of attack, and they have many...and while it is a favorite it is not thier only method...like i said before 10's of billions are being spent on counter IED measures...but the problem is more complicated than just spotting a hole in the ground...or using a mine detector...hence why research is still ongoing...and while we sent a man to the moon, it did get there over night...

As for the Death rate, while it is low compared to the job we are doing, and consider how many ways death can be dealt out in this place...it remains high enough for our government to fork out billions on counter IED, purchase helo's, and other equipment...and if you remember our history that does not come easy, for our government to do...But it has no bearing on why we are here...

Using one bench mark as far as legitimacy. That benchmark to me would be...If opium production goes down with our envolvement then it's an honourable endevour. If it has risen since we have been there then that becomes questionable.

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To bad Canada got off to such a bad start in Afghanistan. If we had entered the region in our traditional manner as peace keepers there would probably be peace by now - but Nooooo..we had to parrot the Americans - who cut that subversive little deal with the Yanks anyway...who subverted our noble knights into become dubed mercenary clones of the Americans?

No way....the noble peacekeepers were coming home in casulty containers long ago. General Hillier disabused any notion about that long ago.

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To bad Canada got off to such a bad start in Afghanistan. If we had entered the region in our traditional manner as peace keepers there would probably be peace by now - but Nooooo..we had to parrot the Americans - who cut that subversive little deal with the Yanks anyway...who subverted our noble knights into become dubed mercenary clones of the Americans?

Oleg, i've done a few tours under the UN as a peacekeeper, and i can tell you this i'd rather be a mencenary clone of the US, anyday of the week...than put another blue helmet on and watch as all around me murder and mayhem takes place....And while most Canadians will stand up and say it more respectable , more honorable to do peacekeeping under the UN banner....than to stand up for our Defense agreements, and help our niebors....I'd say they where full of shit...

For the first time in a long time soldiers can do what they where trained for. Thats right, you want someone to hand out teddy bears and blankets hire the peace nik's or NGO's....you want someone to close with and destroy the enemy then send a soldier....

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