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Ban the Burka


JerrySeinfeld

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When Islamic immigrants make an effort to integrate and break from the hard core mysoginistic roots of radical islamic organization like Al Qaeda or the Taliban, we should applaud and encourage this in our country.

Irshad Manji is a self-proclaimeed "Muslim Refusnik", working from withint the muslim religion for much need change with respect to the treatment of women, gays etc. and for peacful attitudes toward western democracies, as opposed to the tradition confrontational attitudes. She recognizez problems within her own community, and also reconizes that the only real change can come from within.

Another "Muslim Refuzinik", and leader of the Muslim Canadian Congress, Tarak Fateh, has launched a campaign to ban the burka in Canada.

This is a great gesture and step by members of the muslim community toward progress, integration and away from the hardline mysoginistic roots of the Taliban that has for so long hijacked the muslim faith in the name of oppression.

Link

I'm not entirely sure whether I support and outright ban as I believe in the charter. That said, the burka is a dramatic and shocking symbol of mysoginy and oppression, and there does remain a question as to whether covering your entire face and body in public is safe.

Many will argue, I am sure, that wearing the burka is a choice. But as we have seen from the example of honour killings in this country and others, it's difficult to gauge how much "choise" is actually involved. Certainly a girl or women will put on a nice face for the public and tell people she chose to wear it, but when fathers and husbands kill wives and daughters when they do not wear it, fear may play a role in this "choice".

So do I favor an outright ban? It's a tough call. But regardless, it's encouraging to see that some parts of islam are speaking out against the wahhabi-fication of islam worldwide.

Bravo.

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Why is this great? Is not banning the Burka the same as forcing the wearing of it?
We ban public nudity because it offends the "community standards". Someone that showed up at a workplace with a swastika on his arm would most likely be told to take it off. IMO, the burka is just as offensive as a swastika.

That said, I dislike these kinds of infringments on liberty and I not sure a ban would actually accomplish anything good.

Edited by Riverwind
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Even if there's no outright ban there's no good reason why OUR society should universally accept it!

First off, I would refuse to allow a child of mine to ride a school bus where the driver is a women wearing a burka. I don't care about her right of self-expression. It restricts her vision to peer out of an eye slit! If it happened in my community it would become an issue. I would go to jail before I would allow my child to be at risk.

Second, there is the issue of anonymity. Not withstanding the voting booth, drivers licenses and such issues, I simply don't like dealing with someone hiding in a sack so that I can't see their face! It invokes feelings of mistrust. Frankly, it creeps me out! I would not patronize any store where the salesclerk wore a burka, anymore than I would frequent a store where they wore pillow cases over their heads with eye holes.

If it was the law of the land that a storekeeper HAD to hire someone wearing a burka to deal with the public I would never be so bold as to officially make a scene! Rather, I very quietly would refuse to bring my money there. There are lots of other stores! It would be unfortunate for that storekeeper but hey, it wouldn't be the first time that our politicians have made politically correct laws that hurt trade.

What particularly bothers me about this issue is that the burka is NOT a traditional thing! There is no record of it being worn before the 70's. As Mark Steyn pointed out, it is about as sacred and traditional as disco and platform shoes! It is simply something dreamed up and imposed by women-hating old men in a fundamentalist Islamic culture.

They can do what they want in their own pond but here in Canada my culture tells me to refuse to sanction it!

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Ban the berka and ban those little tops 12 year old girls are wearing..you know the belly shirts...and may as well get rid of those pesky gay people...and those Jooooos....and nasty bankers - those anglo elite sobs....and I can't stand people with killer dogs that wear the stainless steel Hannibal Lector mussles...what the hell is that? What nut would have a creature that is capable of ripping the throat out of an adult or child - Point being - I don't give a damn about Berkas - as far as I am concerened people can walk about with garbage bag on the head if they want.

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I was quite surprised to see on TV news that when the Afghanis went to vote, the news showed a woman baring her face at the polls and there weren't any problems with it. So why is there a problem here in Canada?

Isn't it obvious? The burka is being used in Canada as a tool to try to slowly make Canadian culture the way the fundamentalist Islamists want it to be.

In Afghanistan it's already that way so they don't have to be so strict about it!

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I was quite surprised to see on TV news that when the Afghanis went to vote, the news showed a woman baring her face at the polls and there weren't any problems with it. So why is there a problem here in Canada?

We got some racist preverts in high places. I could swear that some lawmakers here don't like the idea of woman covering anything. It goes against their agenda of turning woman into property - public property - They attack the traditional patriarch in our courts - and the last thing they want are focused and privately owned matriarchs wandering about with female authorship of their lives and families - It's an anti-family agenda. The powers that be like to have family power - THEIR family - and no other clans need to compete, thank you very much! :rolleyes:

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Jerry,

So do I favor an outright ban? It's a tough call. But regardless, it's encouraging to see that some parts of islam are speaking out against the wahhabi-fication of islam worldwide.

Thanks for your post. I'm encouraged by the civility of this debate, although I don't agree that government should ban clothing per se.

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Wild Bill,

They can do what they want in their own pond but here in Canada my culture tells me to refuse to sanction it!

Your culture doesn't tell you to refuse to sanction it, it tells you to examine the issue objectively and weigh the facts, and for the most part you have done that. Your objection on two of the items is based on safety, and security against voting fraud which are valid concerns. The third is debatable, but still a defensible personal choice to economic boycott.

Your culture served you well in this case.

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Jerry,

Thanks for your post. I'm encouraged by the civility of this debate, although I don't agree that government should ban clothing per se.

They won't be happy untill we are running around nude wearing leather chaps and running for mayor. In all seriousness - I don't like those daggers that some groups wear - and I can't stand that little beany that the Jews wear...I am all for the Berka...just not in black - I say let have them wear white Berkas - less of an evil effect - oh and while I am at it lets make sure that the robes that judges wear are also switched over to white.

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They won't be happy untill we are running around nude wearing leather chaps and running for mayor. In all seriousness - I don't like those daggers that some groups wear - and I can't stand that little beany that the Jews wear...I am all for the Berka...just not in black - I say let have them wear white Berkas - less of an evil effect - oh and while I am at it lets make sure that the robes that judges wear are also switched over to white.

White burkas? Interesting idea. If you changed the eye slits to simple holes you could recycle all those old KKlan uniforms and save some money...

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White burkas? Interesting idea. If you changed the eye slits to simple holes you could recycle all those old KKlan uniforms and save some money...

Yah and we could pass a law to force the really hot Muslim woman to wear blue contact lenses..now that would be sexy..white berkas with pale blue peering out at you..my idea was - that black as with lawyers and judges is the power colour...maybe berkas being black signify that Muslim men are just like Jewish men - ruled by their mothers..no wonder they have suicide bombers - If my mother dressed in black and broke my balls I would blow myself up also... :lol:

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So if this debate were about KKK wearing white hoods in Canada, would that change anyone's opinion? I'm curious if the "I'm for" or "I'm against" crowds would have other feelings if the discussion centered on a known racist group.

Since the Koran says nothing about women having to wear them (according to the Congress), should the Klan be allowed to cover their faces in public? How about vote?

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In public? Sure. Vote? Probably not.

Interesting. I would have thought that gut reaction would have been to say not at all. I agree that no one should be able to disguise their face when voting, but I have reservations about anyone covering their faces in public as a rule. (Of course, this could get interesting when it's 35 below and some people wear face masks)

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So if this debate were about KKK wearing white hoods in Canada, would that change anyone's opinion? I'm curious if the "I'm for" or "I'm against" crowds would have other feelings if the discussion centered on a known racist group.

I guess that would depend on context if this CBC story is any example:

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/ottawa/story/2007...kkk-071101.html

The Klan was very active in Saskatchewan and Manitoba, where a robe of any kind is very practical in colder weather.

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This topic was raised before, here:

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index....showtopic=15119

and as I said before, "I feel that someone should be free to walk around wearing a tent and a bag over her head, just as I feel that someone should be free to walk around wearing a chicken-suit if they so desire."

I'm not in favor of banning clothing. However, I feel that the more important aspect of this article is this: "Personally, I think the world needs more Muslims like Fatah and Manji, people who show that modern secular society and Islam aren't incompatible."

-k

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So if this debate were about KKK wearing white hoods in Canada, would that change anyone's opinion? I'm curious if the "I'm for" or "I'm against" crowds would have other feelings if the discussion centered on a known racist group.

I wouldn't really care if a Klan guy walked around with his garb on. He's basically just be wearing a big sign saying "i'm an idiot".

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I wouldn't really care if a Klan guy walked around with his garb on. He's basically just be wearing a big sign saying "i'm an idiot".

I would have to say that there is a vast difference between a devote Muslim woman choosing to wear a burka and some pencil-necked Klan dickhead walking around in his garb.

The burka, whether you agree with it or not is a sign of religious devotion and adherence to the orthodox Muslim beliefs, much the same the traditional garb, beards and sideburns are for certain orthodox Jewish men and women, and even Eastern Orthodox Christian women. The Klan garb is little more then a symbol of fear and hatred aimed towards Jews, Catholics, Blacks, Asians, Gays, and others. Big difference in my humble opinion.

The only reason I don't mind seeing a Klan member parading around in his robes, is because it makes it easier to target him with my steel toed boot as I ride by.

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I would have to say that there is a vast difference between a devote Muslim woman choosing to wear a burka and some pencil-necked Klan dickhead walking around in his garb.

The burka, whether you agree with it or not is a sign of religious devotion and adherence to the orthodox Muslim beliefs, much the same the traditional garb, beards and sideburns are for certain orthodox Jewish men and women, and even Eastern Orthodox Christian women. The Klan garb is little more then a symbol of fear and hatred aimed towards Jews, Catholics, Blacks, Asians, Gays, and others. Big difference in my humble opinion.

The only reason I don't mind seeing a Klan member parading around in his robes, is because it makes it easier to target him with my steel toed boot as I ride by.

Given that the burka did not appear until the 1970's, don't you think that it is a bit of a stretch to put it on the same level as your other examples of religious devotion?

Should we doff our hats when we see someone wearing platform shoes? Certainly I support showing respect to a woman not wearing a bra!

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Ah, but the point is that the wearing of a burka is not a sign of Islam. The requirement appears nowhere in the Koran according the the Congress.

I would agree, many Muslims have come out and said the Burqa is not traditional, and not in the Koran.

Wild Bill gives us this

Given that the burka did not appear until the 1970's, don't you think that it is a bit of a stretch to put it on the same level as your other examples of religious devotion?

There are a few other countries considering a ban on the Burqa, France is one of them.

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