return of Nordiques to NHL

[jdobbin]

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/091010/...rdiques_bettman

Several Quebec City media outlets are also reporting that a new arena for the city will be announced next week.

Bettman said earlier this month he would consider Quebec City as a possible home to an NHL team if it went through with plans to build a cutting-edge arena and if a team were up for sale.

The Nordiques were sold in 1995 and moved to Denver as the Colorado Avalanche.

Has Quebec even had a pro team since the Nordiques left?

I think that the arena is going to have a lot of government money tossed in.

If anyone hears more details about this could they please post them as they come up?

[jbg]

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/091010/...rdiques_bettman

Has Quebec even had a pro team since the Nordiques left?

I think that the arena is going to have a lot of government money tossed in.

If anyone hears more details about this could they please post them as they come up?

No. Quebec City has not had a pro team since the Nordiques left. As far as money, what in Quebec isn't done without fistfulls of other people's money. Je me souviens (I remember).

[Michael Hardner]

I dunno... Cirque Du Soleil comes to mind....

[jdobbin]

I dunno... Cirque Du Soleil comes to mind....

They got started with a $1.5 million grant from the Quebec government in 1984.

The three levels of government put money into the circus school in 2004. Think it was half of the $80 million.

The federal government under Harper commissioned the Cirque to come up with something for the Shanghai pavilion in 2010 for Expo.

[BubberMiley]

No. Quebec City has not had a pro team since the Nordiques left.

They had the Quebec Rafales for a couple of years in the IHL.

[Michael Hardner]

They got started with a $1.5 million grant from the Quebec government in 1984.

The three levels of government put money into the circus school in 2004. Think it was half of the $80 million.

The federal government under Harper commissioned the Cirque to come up with something for the Shanghai pavilion in 2010 for Expo.

Ok, jdobbin....

What's your criteria for 'getting started with fistfuls of other peoples' money' ? Compare it to, say, subsidizing General Motors, or to tech companies using the R&D tax credit, or resource companies given exploration rights to tracts of land.

[jdobbin]

Ok, jdobbin....

What's your criteria for 'getting started with fistfuls of other peoples' money' ?

That would be one penny of public money.

I'm not opposed to public money for worthwhile things but I want people to stop thinking that these things are completely private and had no public help at all. It seems to be lost in all the backslapping afterward.

There are no end of things the government can put money in. It ends up to be fistful's of other people's money.

Compare it to, say, subsidizing General Motors, or to tech companies using the R&D tax credit, or resource companies given exploration rights to tracts of land.

I dunno. Giving $40 million for a circus school doesn't sound like small money.

In terms of the Quebec bid for a NHL team, I would hate to think that the feds would be responsible for three Canadian cities outbidding one another for a franchise using public money to secure a deal.

Edited October 11, 2009 by jdobbin

[jdobbin]

They had the Quebec Rafales for a couple of years in the IHL.

That's right. The second year the team was operating, the owners sold all the best players because the team was drawing poor crowds. It seemed their intention was to get their money that way before folding the team.

[fellowtraveller]

No building in Quebec, and the NHL will pick it over Hamilton and Winnipeg, both cities that have arenas adaptable to NHL teams.............

They had better be very careful venturing into those political waters.

Quebec does not have enough corporate presence to have a team, or enough population willing to pay $60 to $200 to watch the islanders on a Wednesday night..

[blueblood]

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/091010/...rdiques_bettman

Has Quebec even had a pro team since the Nordiques left?

I think that the arena is going to have a lot of government money tossed in.

If anyone hears more details about this could they please post them as they come up?

On the hotstove they said that a team coming to Winnipeg is far more likely. I don't think Quebec could have a team as I don't think there would be much for corporate support there. Gov't support would be likely, but I don't think the NHL would risk a 250+ million dollar franchise in a market that is tied to government whims.

Cripes Winnipeg is even dicey as far as corporate support goes, the Aspers I think are in financial hot water to start with, and I don't know of any companies in Winnipeg that would be big enough to throw dollars in to support it. The only way for Canadian teams to make it when the dollar goes south is the revenue sharing plan Bettman has put in place, the same one that saved the oilers, flames, and senators.

If I were the owner of the Montreal Canadiens, I would be fighting tooth and nail to keep a franchise out of Quebec.

Atlanta is a no go because the owner of the team is the owner of the rink they play in. Kansas City is a plausible destination because they have a big city, and a new rink to play in.

Then there is the TV contracts to worry about in Canada. I'm sure the Flames and Oilers would be quite upset losing TV time to a team in Winnipeg, not to mention the Eastern teams with one in Quebec.

Simply put as far as hockey in the US goes, if a team is doing well, the rink will have people in the stands. But even then having people in the stands isn't going to make enough money as far as a team is concerned. If the toronto maple leafs sell out every game and with their average ticket prices, that works out to about 37 million dollars a game, which doesn't even cover the player's salaries not to mention operating a team.

The NHL board of Governors aren't fools (I don't know why people say Bettman has all this power because he doesn't), if something doesn't make financial sense or will hurt the league in the long run it's a no go.

Typical franchise business in action.

[jdobbin]

Cripes Winnipeg is even dicey as far as corporate support goes, the Aspers I think are in financial hot water to start with, and I don't know of any companies in Winnipeg that would be big enough to throw dollars in to support it. The only way for Canadian teams to make it when the dollar goes south is the revenue sharing plan Bettman has put in place, the same one that saved the oilers, flames, and senators.

The more likely scenario is a contraction of about four or five teams and a cut in salaries.

I keep hearing people talk about Kansas and Las Vegas. Well, no one has found a way to be successful in Las Vegas yet with a major league sport. Heck, they don't even have an AHL team. They have an ECHL team playing in an arena with 9,500 seats.

Kansas doesn't have any hockey at the moment. It would help if they at least showed there was a smidgen of interest there before getting a franchise. Given what has happened to their other pro teams in hockey, it is hard to say if there is fan support.

Winnipeg is no rush. It has a new arena that the present team owns and the MTS Centre continues to draw more people. The last ranking had it as the third busiest arena in Canada and 19th busiest in the world. No one is looking to get an NHL franchise that pays $9 million a year for a coach. It is a recipe for financial disaster.

My fear is Quebec is going to get big government money to possibly get a team and I don't know that it makes financial sense to have Canadian cities competing with taxpayer money to do this.

[Michael Hardner]

I dunno. Giving $40 million for a circus school doesn't sound like small money.

jdobbin,

$40 M investment by the government that results in a multi billion dollar business would be a good thing, I would think. At least, it would support the view that government should support business by way of grants, tax credits etc.

So to be clear you don't want government to support industry at all ?

What about my other examples:

companies using the R&D tax credit, or resource companies given exploration rights to tracts of land.

[noahbody]

If I were the owner of the Montreal Canadiens, I would be fighting tooth and nail to keep a franchise out of Quebec.

I would really like to hear Bettman's argument why the NHL wouldn't have to pay Molson a $150 million fee for infringing on their market.

[blueblood]

The more likely scenario is a contraction of about four or five teams and a cut in salaries.

I keep hearing people talk about Kansas and Las Vegas. Well, no one has found a way to be successful in Las Vegas yet with a major league sport. Heck, they don't even have an AHL team. They have an ECHL team playing in an arena with 9,500 seats.

Kansas doesn't have any hockey at the moment. It would help if they at least showed there was a smidgen of interest there before getting a franchise. Given what has happened to their other pro teams in hockey, it is hard to say if there is fan support.

Winnipeg is no rush. It has a new arena that the present team owns and the MTS Centre continues to draw more people. The last ranking had it as the third busiest arena in Canada and 19th busiest in the world. No one is looking to get an NHL franchise that pays $9 million a year for a coach. It is a recipe for financial disaster.

My fear is Quebec is going to get big government money to possibly get a team and I don't know that it makes financial sense to have Canadian cities competing with taxpayer money to do this.

The thing is revenues for the NHL have grown 5 fold since the early 90's with their current policy. From 414 million dollars in 1993 to 2.2 billion dollars in 06-07. We can say that the NHL is doing all right and Bettman's job is safe.

The 30 team thing seems to be working all right, but I can see that they will start moving them around like they do in the NFL once the NHL board feels the US market is established enough.

The thing with Las Vegas is that it would be insane to set up a pro sports franchise there. People go to vegas to hit up the strip. So to cash in on the crowds, one would have to set up an arena on the strip. The problem with that is, the strip is a very expensive piece of real estate. How it is now in vegas, is that the casinos with their VLT's would generate far more income than a hockey rink/basketball arena/etc. Not to mention the black eye associated with the vegas night life.

The only way Winnipeg gets a franchise is if a billionaire tycoon goes through the proper channels, ends up forking out dollars, and has a legion of corporate support. I don't know anyone of that type. Balsillie came close to landing one in Canada, but let his own ego ruin that little plan.

As far as Quebec goes, the NHL board of Governors won't approve of a franchise being set up with hoards of gov't support, it's too risky. Toronto and Montreal would have a fit having a small market franchise being set up in Quebec city. The loss of fans to Montreal games, the TV deals, and the revenue sharing would have T.O. and MTL management up in arms.

What you should be worried about is the gov't of Quebec building a brand new state of the art rink and the NHL saying we don't want a Quebec franchise.

[blueblood]

I would really like to hear Bettman's argument why the NHL wouldn't have to pay Molson a $150 million fee for infringing on their market.

Probably because Molson is a legitimate owner that went through the proper channels.

[jdobbin]

So to be clear you don't want government to support industry at all ?

I think you msread me. I am saying that people who say that Cirque has received no government money are incorrect. I've said I have no problems investing in thing worthwhile using taxpayer money. Just don't pretend afterwards that no public money was involved.

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index....st&p=471759

I'm not opposed to public money for worthwhile things but I want people to stop thinking that these things are completely private and had no public help at all. It seems to be lost in all the backslapping afterward.

Edited October 13, 2009 by jdobbin

[noahbody]

Probably because Molson is a legitimate owner that went through the proper channels.

You misread my post. My point is that if the NHL puts a team in Quebec city, they'd owe Molson compensation.

[blueblood]

You misread my post. My point is that if the NHL puts a team in Quebec city, they'd owe Molson compensation.

I don't know if it would be just the NHL, the new owner would have a hand in paying the tab as well.

[Smallc]

Cripes Winnipeg is even dicey as far as corporate support goes, the Aspers I think are in financial hot water to start with, and I don't know of any companies in Winnipeg that would be big enough to throw dollars in to support it.

The building right across the street from Canwest has some people that could. I don't think they'll need to anyway, since part owners of the MTS Centre, the Thompson family, are said to be working on something.

Winnipeg actually has a very strong corporate environment. There are 12 major corporations based here and almost 150 in total. We'll have to wait and see.

Oh, just to add to the fire:

What I'm hearing:

The NHL WILL be in Winnipeg to stay next season. That'll force the AHL's Manitoba Moose out of Winnipeg and they're eyeing up Regina or Saskatoon.

I'd heard the owner of the Moose, Mark Chipman, wants a piece of whatever NHL club comes in there meaning the ownership of the Moose is in question.

Stay tuned.

http://rodpedersen.blogspot.com/2009/10/mo...-goalie_12.html

Edited for wrong number.

Edited October 13, 2009 by Smallc

[blueblood]

The building right across the street from Canwest has some people that could. I don't think they'll need to anyway, since part owners of the MTS Centre, the Thompson family, are said to be working on something.

Winnipeg actually has a very strong corporate environment. There are 12 major corporations based here and almost 200 in total. We'll have to wait and see.

Oh, just to add to the fire:

http://rodpedersen.blogspot.com/2009/10/mo...-goalie_12.html

I don't know if they are big enough fishes compared to the ones in the other major markets. If Winnipeg were to get a team, it would be one of the smallest cities in the NHL. The corporate environment in Winnipeg just isn't rich enough to justify spending millions on an NHL franchise. Sure there is Canadinns, Macdon, Buhler, JRI, MTS, and some others, the dollars needed for a competitive NHL franchise just isn't there. It's partly why the Jets left in the first place. I'd put the corporate environment in Saskatoon up against the corporate environment in Winnipeg.

Why would the board of governors want to dole out cash to prop up an NHL franchise in Winnipeg, when it has already failed, and would only succeed through revenue sharing?

The Asper family maybe had enough dough to buy the team a few years ago, but they are in kaka right now.

The rumor on the hotstove was that it was a group of investors from Toronto trying to find a franchise in hot water to move to Winnipeg (which would almost take a decade going through the proper channels)

[Smallc]

I'd put the corporate environment in Saskatoon up against the corporate environment in Winnipeg.

Then you'd be silly. Winnipeg has more corporate employees and large corporate offices than Edmonton...and almost as many corporate offices in total. There is also more here than in Ottawa.

It's also important to remember that Winnipeg has changed a great deal since the 90s.

Here's the info:

Winnipeg’s key economic indicators comparison 1994-2008 (since the jets left):

population:

1994: 676 000

2008: 733 000

population growth:

1994: 1600

2008: 10 000

average house value:

1994: $84 000 (Canadian average $158 000) 53% of the canadian average

2008: $191 000 (Canadian average $275 000) 70% of the canadian average

total value of building permits issued:

1994: $300 million

2008: $ 1 billion

housing starts:

1994: 972

2008: 3400

average household income:

1994: $43 000 (Canadian average $49 000) 87%

2008: $72 000 (Canadian average $70 500) 102%

unemployment rate

1994: 10.4% (Canadian average 9.5%)

2008: 4.3% (Canadian average 6%) (3rd in Canada)

total employment

1994: 318 000

2008: 400 000

retail sales:

1994: $4.3 million

2008: $9.3 million

GDP per capita

1994: $21 100 (Canada $26 700) 79% of the canadian average

2008: $44 500 (Canada $46 400) 96% of the canadian average

2008 economic growth 3.9% (third among Canadian cities)

Corporate presence in Winnipeg compared to other Canadian cities:

Corporate head offices; Top 500 largest publically traded companies (2008):

Winnipeg: 12

Edmonton: 7

Ottawa: 7

Quebec City: 2

Hamilton: 1

Corporate head offices; Companies of all sizes (2005):

Edmonton: 157

Winnipeg: 129

Ottawa: 101

Corporate head offices; total employment (2005):

Winnipeg: 6 890

Ottawa: 4 667

Edmonton: 3 428

Taken from learned people on one of my other forums.

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread...936&page=32

[M.Dancer]

Best thing about Winnipeg as an NHL city is they don't need a roofed arena as they can play the entire season outside.

Edited October 13, 2009 by M.Dancer

[jdobbin]

I'd put the corporate environment in Saskatoon up against the corporate environment in Winnipeg.

Bigger corporations than in Winnipeg?

Look, I'm not denying that Saskatchewan has done well in recent years but it isn't anywhere on the NHL's radar.

The main reason the Jets left was not having a new arena with box seats and the revenue that comes from the facility. Winnipeg now has the arena and it is busier than anywhere else in Canada except Montreal and Toronto.

As far as corporate support goes, one big owner can make a difference. If it is the Thomson family, as some suggest, they would be the richest owner on a personal scale in the NHL.

[blueblood]

Bigger corporations than in Winnipeg?

Look, I'm not denying that Saskatchewan has done well in recent years but it isn't anywhere on the NHL's radar.

The main reason the Jets left was not having a new arena with box seats and the revenue that comes from the facility. Winnipeg now has the arena and it is busier than anywhere else in Canada except Montreal and Toronto.

As far as corporate support goes, one big owner can make a difference. If it is the Thomson family, as some suggest, they would be the richest owner on a personal scale in the NHL.

I know that Saskatchewan isn't anywhere close to the radar. But I know the corporate environment in Saskatoon per capita is very competitive with Winnipeg. It's the corporate sponsorship that makes the team money, and I don't know if Winnipeg can pull it off.

The rink in Winnipeg is also only 15,000. Scotiabank Place is about 19-20,000 (accounting for standing room). The arena might be busier, but a person would be relying a lot on corporate support to account for the drop in arena capacity. Then there's the marketing of having a packed rink.

The question would be, is how much is the Thomson family going to lob at the Winnipeg Franchise? The costs involved are enormous, not to mention the franchise red tape they would have to go through. You and I both know that a Winnipeg hockey team would be running at a loss for a few years. Would that be a worthwhile investment for the Thomson family?

Balsillie tried to do this, I don't know if the NHL board of governors would warm up to another Canadian Billionaire attempting to hijack a franchise in order to move it into a saturated market. If the Thomson family was interested in acquiring an franchise, why not go for the gravy train of the Montreal Canadiens when they were for sale? Thomson (who apparently is a silent partner in the MTS centre) already has a profitable business in the MTS centre, and would now have the Montreal Canadiens. For that reason alone, I can't see the Board of Governors agreeing to Thomson acquiring a franchise.

[jdobbin]

I know that Saskatchewan isn't anywhere close to the radar. But I know the corporate environment in Saskatoon per capita is very competitive with Winnipeg. It's the corporate sponsorship that makes the team money, and I don't know if Winnipeg can pull it off.

It is the arena and ownership of it that is a major factor. Saskatoon would have to work that out in detail before even looking at corporate support to sell it out afterward,

The old Winnipeg Arena was owned by the city and it made big money while the Jets were making a lot less and heading into losses. But then all Canadian teams were struggling with rising salaries and lower dollar.

It is amazing what a difference having a higher dollar makes to the bottom line in a league that pays in U.S. dollars.

There are some major corporations in the city that could be tapped for some support such as Great West Life, Investors, Wawanesa and the Richardsons if need be.

However, no one is going to waste money pursuing a team. The only one who wants to do that is Balsillie.

The rink in Winnipeg is also only 15,000. Scotiabank Place is about 19-20,000 (accounting for standing room). The arena might be busier, but a person would be relying a lot on corporate support to account for the drop in arena capacity. Then there's the marketing of having a packed rink.

The rink was built at that number deliberately to serve an AHL team. Like the Ottawa arena, it is built to expand. Ottawa's arena expanded in 2005. Winnipeg's could add 3000 to 4000 on its present footprint according to the architects when the building opened.

18,000 seats would be fairly good number in the NHL, especially if they are not discounted like so many U.S. arenas are doing to the tune of huge losses/

The question would be, is how much is the Thomson family going to lob at the Winnipeg Franchise? The costs involved are enormous, not to mention the franchise red tape they would have to go through. You and I both know that a Winnipeg hockey team would be running at a loss for a few years. Would that be a worthwhile investment for the Thomson family?

Certainly not enough to pursue a team.

The way this is going to happen is if a U.S. owner is looking to move rather than go bankrupt. I think Phoenix is ample evidence of how not to do it.

Balsillie tried to do this, I don't know if the NHL board of governors would warm up to another Canadian Billionaire attempting to hijack a franchise in order to move it into a saturated market. If the Thomson family was interested in acquiring an franchise, why not go for the gravy train of the Montreal Canadiens when they were for sale? Thomson (who apparently is a silent partner in the MTS centre) already has a profitable business in the MTS centre, and would now have the Montreal Canadiens. For that reason alone, I can't see the Board of Governors agreeing to Thomson acquiring a franchise.

As I said, it won't be Winnipeg approaching the NHL, it will be the other way around.