Troops get "non-combat" role in Afghanistan after 2011

[jdobbin]

To win this war there can be no half measures

Then you need to be prepared to kill every man, woman and child in that country to the tun of millions since anything else would be a half measure.

[ToadBrother]

Then you need to be prepared to kill every man, woman and child in that country to the tun of millions since anything else would be a half measure.

That's a pretty ludicrous position. Are you actually saying every man, woman and child in Afghanistan wants a bunch of religious fanatics running their country? Afghanistan has always been a tough country, but the Taliban are an outgrowth of the Mujahideen, very much a creation of modern times.

[jdobbin]

It would be more likely for Ignatieff to change the present plan.

He wouldn't last the day as leader if he tried. I pretty much guarantee that.

After all, he's always been in favour of the Afghanistan mission - as he was the Iraqi mission. And the Liberals invented the Afghanistan misson and shifted it into high combat mode. The only reason they've been opposing it since then is a political tactic against the Tories in power. But if the Liberals were in power they could go back to supporting the combat mission knowing the Tories would not oppose it.

The Liberals had set a deadline based to avoid getting bogged down long term. Our allies let us down in terms of support and the Afghans didn't meet any criteria for taking over.

There is a reason we went to Afghanistan and it was because 23 Canadians were killed on September 11 and the world was threatened with more to come.

The Tories called the deadline cowardice for our move to the south and were prepared to add more years till it kicked them right in the balls publicly and almost brought down their government. This is one of the few times Harper reached out because it was the only serious threat to him and he knew it.

The Liberals went along with the extension but said the deadline had to be a firm one.

Serious issues of progress on the mission have to be asked and Harper for a long time has tried to keep anyone aside from the government scrutinizing things.

Now Harper is setting the parameters for continued involvement.

But the army is worn out and needs to rest and recover and refit. The Tories know that and that is part of the reason why they are ending the combat element of the mission. Liberals, on the other hand, have never cared about the army (dirty, stinking militarists) and wouldn't have the same concern for them being worn out and worn down.

Oh please. The military said before the last extension that they needed to re-group but the Tories never cared about that. Harper believed it was a way to puff him on the world stage. Harper used the military as props and photo ops for his speeches.

[wulf42]

Then you need to be prepared to kill every man, woman and child in that country to the tun of millions since anything else would be a half measure.

Nonsense! Many if not most Afghanistani's want our help setting up schools and getting

rid of the Taliban! One soldier i talked to said the problem is many are scared when we pull

out the Taliban will come back and kill or torture those who helped or supported soldiers!

now with all this idiotic talk of pulling out they have reason to be scared!! the Taliban throw

acid on young girls faces and want to keep them down like dogs if we leave this is what they

have to look forward to!! i don t get many on this forum who worry about human rights yet want

our troops to leave just so the Taliban can slaughter thousands??? kind of a contradiction

don t you think??

[jdobbin]

That's a pretty ludicrous position. Are you actually saying every man, woman and child in Afghanistan wants a bunch of religious fanatics running their country? Afghanistan has always been a tough country, but the Taliban are an outgrowth of the Mujahideen, very much a creation of modern times.

Nope. I am saying the tribalism is rampant amongst every person in the country including the President and that we are right in the middle of it.

Our presence there will not remove the violent clash of tribes that has existed for centuries.

The only way it will end is if there are no people there. I don't know that this is the way we want to go but I'll bet the idea has crossed some people's minds.

[jdobbin]

Nonsense! Many if not most Afghanistani's want our help setting up schools and getting

rid of the Taliban!

But it doesn't end the tribalism which results in other violent clashes that we find ourselves in the middle of.

If Pakistan can't quell its provinces with a military as huge in foot soldiers as you are going to find in the region, it is not going to work out well for us trying the same thing with smaller numbers.

Nation building there is something Afghans will have to work out on their own.

I much prefer to have a rapid deployment force ready in the region to hit hard and get out if there is a threat to us.

Edited October 11, 2009 by jdobbin

[ToadBrother]

But it doesn't end the tribalism which results in other violent clashes that we find ourselves in the middle of.

The Taliban are not a historic tribe. They are one of the breakaways of the Mujahideen. A lot of warlords and tribal leaders have backed them, some out of mutual necessity and some out of fear.

If Pakistan can't quell its provinces with a military as huge in foot soldiers as you are going to find in the region, it is not going to work out well for us trying the same thing with smaller numbers.

Actually, once the various factions of the Pakistani military finally got their heads out of their collective a$$es, the battle for the Swat Valley became a lot more successful. Yes, it isn't completely finished, but one thing that was revealed is that the Swat Valley wasn't filled with a bunch of Islamists, but ordinary people who despised the Taliban and wanted them gone.

Nation building there is something Afghans will have to work out on their own.

In the end, yes, but until then, the West has a considerable interest in the Taliban not turning it back into a terrorist training base.

I much prefer to have a rapid deployment force ready in the region to hit hard and get out if there is a threat to us.

The nature of warfare ensures there is a threat. You might as well just sit in battleships in the Persian Gulf and lob missiles around if that's all you're interested in.

[Argus]

But it doesn't end the tribalism which results in other violent clashes that we find ourselves in the middle of.

If Pakistan can't quell its provinces with a military as huge in foot soldiers as you are going to find in the region, it is not going to work out well for us trying the same thing with smaller numbers.

Pakistan's army is not exactly the cutting edge in any respect, and nine tenths of it are tied down glaring at the Indian army across their border.

[DogOnPorch]

Pakistan's army is not exactly the cutting edge in any respect, and nine tenths of it are tied down glaring at the Indian army across their border.

Aye...Pakistani forces...while benefiting from 19th century British military doctrine...are yet another 3rd world army with rotten command control and dubious officers, loyalty-wise.

[jdobbin]

Pakistan's army is not exactly the cutting edge in any respect, and nine tenths of it are tied down glaring at the Indian army across their border.

So all we need is around a couple of hundred thousand tough, well trained NATO soldiers to end centuries of distrustful tribal violence?

The objective of nation building in a nation determined to fight itself seems destined to failure.

[jdobbin]

The Taliban are not a historic tribe. They are one of the breakaways of the Mujahideen. A lot of warlords and tribal leaders have backed them, some out of mutual necessity and some out of fear.

Never said the Taliban were a tribe and tribalism makes it possible for such a group to find refuge and to act out against others.

Actually, once the various factions of the Pakistani military finally got their heads out of their collective a$$es, the battle for the Swat Valley became a lot more successful. Yes, it isn't completely finished, but one thing that was revealed is that the Swat Valley wasn't filled with a bunch of Islamists, but ordinary people who despised the Taliban and wanted them gone.

I was referring to the border provinces where Pakistan's military routinely take it on the chin because there is support from local tribes. The analysis by the experts is that this fight is going to continue and we still don't know how it will turn out.

In the end, yes, but until then, the West has a considerable interest in the Taliban not turning it back into a terrorist training base.

They do that from Pakistan now. Unless we are prepared to go into Pakistan, they can wait us out. Centuries if need be since Pakistan won't challenge them in the western provinces.

The nature of warfare ensures there is a threat. You might as well just sit in battleships in the Persian Gulf and lob missiles around if that's all you're interested in.

The problem is that the threat has moved to an sanctuary and we are lobbing missiles in anyway.

Even hundreds of thousands of soldiers will not be able to change the culture and tribalism that has led to the nation being a battleground for as long as it has been. While the violence might be quelled temporarily, we cannot have faith that it will hold if we ever leave. And the longer we stay, the bigger the target we become.

[jdobbin]

Aye...Pakistani forces...while benefiting from 19th century British military doctrine...are yet another 3rd world army with rotten command control and dubious officers, loyalty-wise.

They probably have weapons that work though. The U.S. has lost lots of people because of weapons malfunction.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33267598/ns/wo...d_central_asia/

When the battle in the small village of Wanat ended, nine U.S. soldiers lay dead and 27 more were wounded. A detailed study of the attack by a military historian found that weapons failed repeatedly at a "critical moment" during the firefight on July 13, 2008, putting the outnumbered American troops at risk of being overrun by nearly 200 insurgents.

[Topaz]

I wonder if Harper will change his mind if the US decided to pull out at in 2011 or sooner. I heard on US TV talks shows that Obama is endangering of becoming another LBJ and so he will have to decide either to send another 30,000 troops or pull out. I think he should at least do a poll for a month and ask the people which do they want. He must have the people behind him or he will lose the respect of the people. Someone tell that to Harper!

[DogOnPorch]

They probably have weapons that work though. The U.S. has lost lots of people because of weapons malfunction.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33267598/ns/wo...d_central_asia/

The Pakistanis in the past used a mix of older weapons...mainly Russian/Chinese. Though they have old favorites like the FN in storage. The US is using a new assault rifle (M4) which like the M-16/AR-15 before it is having some teething troubles. They'll work out the bugs in future versions. If you recall...the first M-16s jammed like the Dickens and needed a 'forward assist' to slam loose rounds into the chamber...not good in a battle, frankly. The M-4 assault rifle has the same 'feature' which is no doubt part of this current problem.

The main Pakistani small arms weapon now coming into service is...surprise...the US M-4 carbine. Overall it will be a good weapon for the price when perfected.

[jdobbin]

The M-4 assault rifle has the same 'feature' which is no doubt part of this current problem.

I'm rather horrified to hear the amount of jamming the M-4 has been having.

I have not heard about Canadians having similar problems with the C-7 although the Danes have complained about their C-7s jamming. Don't know why theirs have the problem and I've seen no reports of the same thing in Canada.

[Army Guy]

The US M-4 Carbine is the same wpn sys as our C-8 hvy barrel, albiet a few small changes...........I've used both the C-7A2 and the C-8, on tour and had no problems with either.

The problem may lie in the type of lubricant they are using, or HOW clean they keep there wpns....Afghan is a very unforgiving land, and the Poo dust diffently plays a huge role on all equipment we have....keeping it lubed with any type of oil will spell disaster for someone who depends on a wpn to suvive with....We where using a dry spray on lub, same stuff we use for artic or winter warfare and never had stopages that that put my life on the line....

That being said i did have stoppages but nothing out of the ordinary or could not be solved in seconds.....that and most have a second back-up wpn, such as pistols or shotguns.

I'm not impling that this rockie mistake was made by those troops, but they where using a proven wpns design that has served them well in the past....

[Army Guy]

double post.

Edited October 19, 2009 by Army Guy

[Army Guy]

Triple post, sorry it's monday....

Edited October 19, 2009 by Army Guy