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US Torture Scandal


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One of the reasons I and many others opposed the war in Iraq was the resentment of the US it would enflame. I've always maintained it is essential for America and the west to maintain the moral high ground.

It's been chipped away since the invasion and this is beyond doubt the most damage done yet.

Here's a little sample of the current situation:

"LEASH GAL'S SEX PIX"

http://65.54.244.250/cgi-bin/linkrd?_lang=...s%2f20802%2ehtm

"New Photos worse than expected"

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4855930/

"What we saw is appalling"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...-2004May12.html

How did these people get in the army, where was their training and why was there no supervision or discipline?

Any thoughts.

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I have lots of thoughts. These people are for the most part same as everybody else in the world and placed in an extenuating circumstance. Lack of experience coupled with lack of supervision, throw in a purpose such as the 'soften them up for interogation' part and lots of stuff can happen.

I had a thought a few years ago. You know how many of histories worst criminals were at one time normal citizens? Well, picture the bitch at the grocery store berating a young clerk to no end for making a mistake. Picture her with no accountability and having a bad day. The circumstances and the lack of supervision multiplied by an ambiguous mission - soften them up. Then while they are working on that formula, throw in some stress from dealing with thousands of alien sounding strange and potentially dangerous individuals. Finally, do it every day, in and out for months, over a year and suddenly stuff begins to make some sort of weird sense, you accept it, get used to it. Without serious reality checks from supervision and possibly rotation with other troops you grow into your own little world.

It's supervision, inexperiences, too much stress, no enforced SOPs, and also, they should have made it less specialized so that a front line platoon could take a few weeks off at the rear guarding the prison on a rotating basis.

However, that said, the interrogators should know what was going on. They were part of the supervisory chian. The real problem lies at the link between the interrogators and the guards. Who was that and why did they accept that behavior or why did they not know it was happening? That is where I think the answer lies. Somewher about the rank of Colonel and Major General.

Now scince this is not exclusive to one prison, it is either a systematic problem, or .............. it is policy. Once we determine that, it will be a trial for Junior Generals or some really big fish.

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I just read this article off the G& M site.

New Yorker reports Runsfield responsible for torture scandal

It basically claims that there was a secret program to humiliate prisoners (physically and sexually) that was approved by Rice, Rumsfield and known to Bush in order to deal with the Iraqi insurgency. The source is a reporter with The New Yorker and it seems the last evidence that this was systematic and planned. It now seems clear that no law or convention is seen as applicable in how the American leadership treats people it considers 'enemies.' Consider:

A) It always bothered me that there were so many photos out of Abu Grahib. If there is one thing the Pentagon learned from Vietnam it was to keep a tight control on any sort of media from it's operations. This includes pictures not taken by the media proper but that could end up in their hands. Now it seems these pictures were part of the plan.

B The Quantanimo situation has shown that the Americans no longer believe in lawyers or charges for people in their prisons. Many are held without charges and it is unclear that they have done anything wrong at all, just that they might know someone who did.

C) The Arar case is disturbing. The Americans picked him up at an airport on a stopover (he wasn't even intending to stay in the U. S.). They then deported him to Syria instead of keeping him there or turning him over to the RCMP in Canada. It remains nonsensical for them to argue that they did not think he was going to be tortured and then it is not hard to conclude that this is why he was deported in the first place (to a country the Americans consider an enemy no less). The evidence against him, he signed a lease for someone who might be a terrorist and attended a training camp in Afghanistan many years ago (the same camps resulting from CIA encouragement of Islamic fighters to fight the Russians).

D) I originally thought this was like the Somali affair involving Canadian troops but always wondered at why there were so many pictures and now videos (including the ones we haven't seen) if it wasn't systematic.

E) The New Yorker is no tabloid. I assume their lawyers are good enough that this would not be published unless it was an ironclad, corroborated, source.

Therefore, it now clear to me beyond a reasonable doubt that the American leadership condone torture to get information out of people who aren't even the terrorist masterminds but "cabdrivers, brothers-in-law and people pulled off the street." (same article).

I will admit that I have never really liked the American political system and foreign policy. Since they decided they had the right to approve the assassination of Diem in Vietnam it's been all downhill. I agree that most American's are decent people but I really have never agreed with their particular methods and goals of trying to run the world.

This however is too much. Something is rotten in the District of Columbia and if they think the stink isn't travelling right across the world their arrogance is mind boggling. It is absolutely and totally idiotic for people who purport (however badly) to defend "freedom" to engage in this sort of conduct. Why don't they just hire Hussien himself to run the damn prisons with his sons. These prisoners have not even been proven to have done anything to begin with.

9-11 was a tragic act of mass murder that was unjustified in all respects and the perpetrators should be punished at reasonable costs (even if it means a military instead of a police operation against the people actually responsible). Terrorism is not however new, many many countries have been dealing with for a long time (including Britian) and no other country has resorted to such extreme measures to combat it. THe Iraq operation is justified in terms of 9-11 by the White House. Iraq had nothing to do with 9-11, Bin Laden hates Hussien as being everything that he pretends to oppose (a secular, slightly westernized, Arab state). Iraq had no WMD and if the Americans are really going to attack everyone with WMD then there is a long list.

Yes it is harder to get information without torturing people but that is the price we pay to live in a society we like to believe is free and democratic. It is not too high price.

In business, the difference between a good manager and a bad manager is that when it hits the fan the good manager sticks to the values and goals of the organization and calmly stays the course while correcting the problem. The good manager plans for bad times and has contingency plans to deal with said. The bad manger flails around and goes from one extreme solution to another, ignoring the strengths of his organization and usually eventually destroying the company in the process. What kind of manager is in the White House??

IMO the Americans have just lost any shred of claim to the moral high ground or to a greater understanding of the concepts of a free and democratic state. IMO the Americans have lost the right to claim that they can handle WMD any more responsibly than anyone else. IMO if the Americans were anyone else there would be a call for sanctions against them. IMO the American leadership is going to create so many enemies that we are all going to have to live in fear for our lives (and no I don't believe in appeasement of terrorists but I don't believe in pissing people off enough to create more either without any valid reason). IMO any American that is not ashamed of this better hope that at least the damn trains will run on time in the New World Order.

If this is how the Americans are going to act as occupiers than I submit that the insurgents are justified in opposing them. I do not make such a statement lightly.

Excuse me but this makes me livid, those are not the terrorist masterminds in those pictures, in fact they are not even suspected of necessarily killing Americans.

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Well I am not as mad about this as I was but I still think we should all be mad about this situation. The old cliche, what part of your soul will you give up to save yourself. In any case here is a confirmation (to my mind) about why a Canadian citizen was deported to Syria even though no criminal charges have ever been brought against him (which also makes me very mad).

The government was advised that if the CIA was considering procedures which violated the Geneva Convention or US laws prohibiting torture and degrading treatment, it would not be held responsible if it could be argued that the detainees were in the custody of another country.

BBC source article re FBI won't participate in CIA interegations

It's a bit out of context but I think it is objective evidence. I think though that the FBI's refusal to participate in torture is a promising sign for America.

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How did these people get in the army, where was their training and why was there no supervision or discipline?

Putting aside for the moment the theory that the torture and abuse at Iraqi was systematic and reflective of Pentagon policy, I think the question of "how can people do such things" is a good one.

Lt. Col. Dave Grossman, an ex Army Ranger and psychologist, theorizes that humans are deeply resistant to killing or harming other human beings. This resitance is, in wartime, problematic for armed forces. That's why much of modern military training is devoted to breaking down those natural barriers: recruits are broken down and rebuilt into desensetized killing units. Soldiers are taught to view enemys as subhuman, thus excusing actions that are inherently abhorrant and antithetical to social norms. The enemy is not another man, but a "gook" or "raghead".

So ultimately, the torture and abuse in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Gitmo are indicators of the level of success the military has had in conditioning their troops to be as efficient as possible. In other words, it's not an abberation or a case of a "few bad apples", but the logical result of a system devoted to destroying the humanity of its participants as well as its victims. (This is, of course, not to excuse any of the perpetrators; ultimately the choice was there's regardless of where the orders orginated.)

However, even sadder than this is the fact that all too many citizens of the self-proclaimed defender of democracy are willing to excuse these acts as a necessary part of the "war on terror". To a large extent, much of the population has become as conditioned to accept brutality as the soldiers committing the acts. IMO, this is problematic as it represents the growth of a culture of exceptionalism and superiority that is both contrary to the fundamental values of a egalitarian democracy, as well as a cultural time bomb that could threaten the rest of the world. :unsure:

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However, even sadder than this is the fact that all too many citizens of the self-proclaimed defender of democracy are willing to excuse these acts as a necessary part of the "war on terror". To a large extent, much of the population has become as conditioned to accept brutality as the soldiers committing the acts. IMO, this is problematic as it represents the growth of a culture of exceptionalism and superiority that is both contrary to the fundamental values of a egalitarian democracy, as well as a cultural time bomb that could threaten the rest of the world.

Good point Black Dog. Better to chop off some heads or rape wives in front of the prisoners. Let Iraq take over interrogations so we can wipe our hands clean. This underwear on the head stuff is too harsh for me.

'Cry Havoc!'

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However, even sadder than this is the fact that all too many citizens of the self-proclaimed defender of democracy are willing to excuse these acts as a necessary part of the "war on terror". To a large extent, much of the population has become as conditioned to accept brutality as the soldiers committing the acts. IMO, this is problematic as it represents the growth of a culture of exceptionalism and superiority that is both contrary to the fundamental values of a egalitarian democracy, as well as a cultural time bomb that could threaten the rest of the world.

Good point Black Dog. Better to chop off some heads or rape wives in front of the prisoners. Let Iraq take over interrogations so we can wipe our hands clean and really get some information - in a hurry! This underwear on the head stuff is too harsh for me.

'Cry Havoc!'

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You're right, they should have really done stuff that Arabs can accept like chop off heads or rape wives. In reality, it is much more torturre to an Arab to degrade him. America has done the worst thing possible by staying on the moral high ground. Who's moral high ground? Theirs. time for them to become more Liberal like the Arabs themselves and start to install dictatorships rather than democracy. As we all know, America has nothing to offer in that sense except Korporate Kapitulation.

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America has lost any moral high ground; Using bribes and threats of economic retaliation rather than proving a war on Iraq was necessary; was the beginning of the end of any moral responsibility. The prisoners being illegally held in Quatanama without any Geneva Convention rights brought them down further. This torture and humiliation is widespread not just a few renegade soldiers. I believe that they are just following orders. I few will be persecuted as scapegoats to take the heat off the military. The USA used scapegoats to take the heat off American atrocities in the Vietnam war. Allowing Pakistan to become a favoured partner in obtaining new American war technology right after it was discovered that Pakistan top scientist were selling nuclear technologies and parts to rogue nations was unbelieveable.

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Excellent expose' Caesar! I only hope that this 'illegal Bush Administration hears your wise words and takes the necessary action to defeat these enemies from within so that they can get down to killing Muslims in a more humane and expeidient way. Thereby once againregaining the moral high ground.

Peace, and recycle.

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The only way the USA can regain high moral ground it to vote out the Bush administration. Muslims should NOT be the target only the terrorist. A new administration would not be able to just pull out of Iraq. The USA has done too much damage there now. The USA coalition is responsible for restoring order and the infrastructure in Iraq that they have destroyed. Now Bush is wanting the rest of the world to pay for the destruction wrought by the unnecessary and unwise unsanctioned invasion of Iraq. Most of Saddam's atrocities were committed while he was an American ally. The gassing of the Kurds that is now blamed on Saddam as a deliberate act; was said to be an accidental gassing while Iraq and Iran were gassing each other. According to the American War College; the gas that affected the Kurds was actually Iranian. They suffered symptoms that coincide with the gas being used by Iran. I am not attempting to defend Saddam but let's base our decisions on truth not fictional propaganda

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Muslims should NOT be the target only the terrorist.

The only terrorists are the US and Israel.

The USA has done too much damage there now.

And wait until there is a democratic vote in Iraq. What next? A chicken in every pot, freedom? The whole damm place is going to hell in a handbasket, next thing you know, instead of the prospect of death and destruction as experienced under Saddam, they will follow the US lead and start forcing criminals and rapists to wear underwear on their heads. Some progress.

The USA coalition is responsible for restoring order and the infrastructure in Iraq that they have destroyed.

Exactly. Iraq was a first world industrial society complete with and effective government, now look at it! They should go immediately and get the UN to take over, get rid of Haliburton and Cheny and bring in some Arab solution to this quagmire. Maybe a Yemneni contruction company to restore it to it's former self.

Most of Saddam's atrocities were committed while he was an American ally

Got that right, and you can bet they were subsidized by the Zionist entity Israel too. They're all in bed together you know - Saddam, Bush, Sharone. The US tries to place blame on Al Queda, sure.

They suffered symptoms that coincide with the gas being used by Iran. I am not attempting to defend Saddam but let's base our decisions on truth not fictional propaganda

The only propaganda I see is comming from the US. Freedom and democracy, ony if it is their democracy. The insurgents want to take Iraq and turn it over to an elected government while the US wants to enslave the Muslims so they can steal the oil. It seems the only non propaganda these days is comming from intellectuals like Martin Sheen, Danny Glover, Michael Moore (and Sean Penn as well when he isn't high, and moreso when he is.)

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They're even beating their own.

The prison abuse scandal refuses to die because soothing White House explanations keep colliding with revelations about dead prisoners and further connivance by senior military officers — and newly discovered victims, like Sean Baker.

If Sean Baker doesn't sound like an Iraqi name, it isn't. Specialist Baker, 37, is an American, and he was a proud U.S. soldier. An Air Force veteran and member of the Kentucky National Guard, he served in the first gulf war and more recently was a military policeman in Guantánamo Bay.

"They grabbed my arms, my legs, twisted me up and unfortunately one of the individuals got up on my back from behind and put pressure down on me while I was face down. Then he — the same individual — reached around and began to choke me and press my head down against the steel floor. After several seconds, 20 to 30 seconds, it seemed like an eternity because I couldn't breathe. When I couldn't breathe, I began to panic and I gave the code word I was supposed to give to stop the exercise, which was `red.' . . . That individual slammed my head against the floor and continued to choke me. Somehow I got enough air. I muttered out: `I'm a U.S. soldier. I'm a U.S. soldier.' "

Link.

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I heard of torture tecniques used by the Nazis and Japanese during WWII on Allied and Resistance fighters. Little did I know that man could lower itself further than chopping off body parts and gouging out eyeballs with hot pokers. Underwear and sand bags on heads, naked males degraded while remaining annonomous with sandbags on heads. 'Oh the humanity!."

It's almost as bad as a college frat inititiation. US Bastards.

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It's almost as bad as a college frat inititiation. US Bastards.

Pull your head out of Rush's arse, KK. If college initiations involved armed seizure and detention without due process, or riding 70 year -old women around like donkeys, you might be closer to being just mistaken. As it is, however, you're totally out of it.

8.  (U) In addition, several detainees also described the following acts of abuse, which under the circumstances, I find credible based on the clarity of their statements and supporting evidence provided by other witnesses (ANNEX 26):

a.  (U) Breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees;

b.  (U) Threatening detainees with a charged 9mm pistol;

c.  (U) Pouring cold water on naked detainees;

d.  (U) Beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair;

e.  (U) Threatening male detainees with rape;

f.  (U) Allowing a military police guard to stitch the wound of a detainee who was injured after being slammed against the wall in his cell;

g.  (U) Sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick.

h.  (U) Using military working dogs to frighten and intimidate detainees with threats of attack, and in one instance actually biting a detainee.

US Army report on abuse

Keep in mind, too, that, by the Army's own admission, between 70 and 9o per cent of the detainees are innocent of any wrong-doing. Yet apologista like KK continue to excuse these heinous violations of human rights. Disgusting.

News sources revealed today that evidence has been released that proves that the torture of prisoners was approved by the White House /Bush prior to the Iraq invasion.

Link.

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These are atrocities and ....

Here is some examples for those more sensitive from a Russian Source.

    *  Falaka/falanga: beatings on the soles of the feet

    * Palestinian hanging: suspension by the arms while these are tied behind the back

    * Severe forms of beatings

    * Electric shocks

    * Rape

    * Mock executions

    * Being buried alive

    * Mock amputations

There are, however, also many 'grey areas' which do not clearly amount to torture, or about which there is still disagreement, but which are of great concern to the international community. Examples include:

    * Corporal punishment imposed as a judicial penalty

    * Some forms of capital punishment and the death-row phenomenon

    * Solitary confinement

    * Certain aspects of poor prison conditions, particularly if combined

    * Disappearances, including their effect on the close relatives of the disappeared person

    * Treatment inflicted on a child which might not be considered torture if inflicted on an adult

Police torture in Russia

The most common form of torture involves prolonged beatings, with punches, kicks, and blows from a nightstick commonly aimed at the victim's head, back, kidneys, legs, and heels. The police also use electric shock. Two people interviewed by Human Rights Watch jumped out the window of the police station and were seriously injured rather than be subjected to further electric shock.

This is a sample of a Frat Prank/Hazing.

National news has covered a few high-profile stories like the recent hazing that occurred at a preseason football camp in September, 2003, in Pennsylvania. In that incident, three varsity football players from Long Island, who were 16 and 17, allegedly sodomized three 14-year-old junior varsity players with pine cones, golf balls, and a broomstick.

And in May, 2003, in Northbrook, Illinois, a girls’ high school hazing was caught on videotape. In that case, involving a powder-puff football team, junior girls endured beating, pummeling, kicking, and torture by senior girls (and some boys), who poured buckets of feces, pig and fish guts, toxic paint, urine, and blood on their heads—while a cheering mob watched.

The torture. The inhumanity of man to man.

a.  (U) Breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees;

KK - a common hallowoeen gag done by kids.  Guess you don’t get out to bars much either.

b.  (U) Threatening detainees with a charged 9mm pistol;

KK - in a war zone to extract information or provide incentive for better obiedience.  Imagine.

c.  (U) Pouring cold water on naked detainees;

KK - reminds me of my boot camp days.

d.  (U) Beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair;

KK - In a war zone, imagine.

e.  (U) Threatening male detainees with rape;

KK - Gee, almost as bad as a federal penetentiary where you are actually raped by sweeties like ‘Otis.’

f.  (U) Allowing a military police guard to stitch the wound of a detainee who was injured after being slammed against the wall in his cell;

g.  (U) Sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick.

KK - Almost as bad as a lot of the frat pranks that hit the news.  Like that Canadian Sub Commander. 

h.  (U) Using military working dogs to frighten and intimidate detainees with threats of attack, and in one instance actually biting a detainee.

KK - Working dogs?  They clock in and out?  Anyhow, almost like you were in a war zone or something and needed to get people in line that are enemy combatants until proven different.

Pull your head out of Rush's arse, KK. If college initiations involved armed seizure and detention without due process, or riding 70 year -old women around like donkeys, you might be closer to being just mistaken. As it is, however, you're totally out of it.

So it is the detention itself that is the torture? In a war zone, and you say I am out of it.

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You're not just out of it: you'd make a great Gestapo recruit.

These are atrocities and ....

Here is some examples for those more sensitive from a Russian Source.

Police torture in Russia

Totally irrelevant.

You're right inasmuch it's a "war". But you forget you're supposed to be liberating the people, not abusing them. Again: the bulk of the detainees were innocent of any wrongdoing.

Well, KK, I'll tell you what: since the abuse is no big deal to you, how about you volunteer to show us by allowing us drag you from your house at gunpoint, stick a broomstick up your ass, kick the crap out of you, sic dogs on you, point a loaded gun at your head, force you to perform simulated sex acts on other men. No biggy, right?

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No Black Dog, what I quoted is normally seen as the degree of torture occuring during wartime and even peace time. The frat pranks were more in line with what was going on in the prison than the quoted torture. In other words, the degree of torture occuring was on a level far below which torture is normally equated with.

That said, it is still not acceptable however let's try and keep this based on some sort of reality. I suppose that scince you say that it is not of the degree of Gestapo Tecniques and even remotely like police tactics used in Russia that you tend to agree with me.

Well, KK, I'll tell you what: since the abuse is no big deal to you, how about you volunteer to show us by allowing us drag you from your house at gunpoint, stick a broomstick up your ass, kick the crap out of you, sic dogs on you, point a loaded gun at your head, force you to perform simulated sex acts on other men. No biggy, right?

Does this all have to take place at once? Do I have to live in a third world country during wartime for this to happen? Or might it happen in peacetime in many countries that are currently a dictatorship? I take it to mean that during war things are not supposed to be any worse than they are during peace, kind of like going in for an operation and the doctor never having to make an incision. A happy world you live in.

Before you go off the deep end as you did with Hugo last week (he really must be getting to you) I will reiterate my postition. This is by no means permissable, no means acceptable however, given the whole operation and actions that the US is taking to investigate it, bring democracy to Iraq is only a blip on the screen. Anybody that sees anything more sinister than ineffectual military supervision, a poor policy for POWs and some idiotic individuals working in those prisons is merely looking for an excuse to bash the US.

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Declassified Document Behind U.S. Torture

Well everyone added links to stories, so I thought I'd add this one I came across, which was from the Wall Street Journal and is presented as being a declassified document endorsed by Rumsfeld. It basically redefines language in order to justify U.S. tactics.

Well, having said that, the U.S. has been involved with torture since at least WWII when they hired ex-SS agents to help with national interests globally, not to mention even worse attrocities, but this post is not about that.

It seems everyone agrees this is a scandal to some degree, and morally wrong to some other extent. If you do not, then let's hear it (only after you read my link). Otherwise, I ask, what are we doing about it?!? Why are we discussing it here with others who also know about it, end up attacking each other, and neglect to address the cause of all the commotion, namely the present U.S. administration (who is not actually the root of such behaviour, but is nonetheless resposible for their behaviour now)?

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Why are we discussing it here with others who also know about it, end up attacking each other, and neglect to address the cause of all the commotion, namely the present U.S. administration (who is not actually the root of such behaviour, but is nonetheless resposible for their behaviour now)?

Great point OIC. And you are a step up in my book as well after reading your last. The US like many other first world countries has been involved in torture, either by proxy or at least supporting it. While no surprise to most it is the scandal aspect of it that hits home the most.

Let's say that the Haugue conveened a group of war criminals in it's court. The evidence is brought out and here it is; People like Pol Pot, Milosivic, Stalin and all are accused of putting a broomstick up a guy's butt, putting a sand bag on his head, having his niece smile beside a group of naked prisoners smoking a ciggarette.

Exhibit #2. He tied electrical wires to some guy and told him he was going to throw the switch.

I doubt that anybody would be hanged for this. You can see where I am going with this right? Hardly the stuff of a Nuremburg trial but wrong nonetheless. In fact, more scadelous than anything else when compared to the everyday life of an Arab living in one of these regimes where more physical torture is fairly commonplace. You see the discrepency and see it for what it is. Bravo.

A couple of friends of mine attended the SAS Escape and Evasion course in Northern England and told me of the beatings they recieved as part of the POW portion of the course. Severe, more severe than anything these prisoners went through. One of them had to see a doctor upon return to Canada and was asked to fill out a criminal report which of course he refused as this was all done with his permission upon enrollment on the course.

In it's proper perspective this torture issue is more of an Anti America round of ammo than anything based in reality. What country does not torture to some extent? Even Canada has it's problems as do the Belgians to name a couple. What is unique is that they did it under the eye of the world at a time where they were saying that things must change. Yes they must change, yes they must get obiedience, yes they must make prison a terrible place to be. They must also be more carefull, like newly fallen snow, from this era on, every step will show. I hope that it is a lesson learned and not simply a lesson for them to be more careful not to get caught.

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Well here's the thing. Canada has written in its laws that Canada will follow international law. Therefore, if we are serious in resolving this torture issue and involve international law in the matter (assuming we are serious about the UN's role in the world as well), Canada should get involved because it is in our own laws. (Sorry that I cannot find the specific line for you, but it exists)

Now, if you think going to the UN is as futile as the Nicaragua vs. U.S. case (in which case I may agree), what can be done about this? I'm genuinely asking because I for one do not know. And if we all do not know the solution, or preventative measures (dare I say it), then should we not wonder whether the power of states such as the U.S. may be out of control?

On the comment above about preventative measures: the problem with change is the illusion of progress.

On learning from history: too bad we merely value this act, and do not practice it! But this superficiality extends far beyond learning from history.

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