Is this message reasonable? Why not?

[Pliny]

Did "we," now? And if "we" hadn't ratified it, what would have been the reason?-- What would that have made "us" then?

Fair and not discriminatory or condescending.

Edited September 24, 2009 by Pliny

[Pliny]

Who are you fooling.

I don't believe he is fooling anyone. He is failing to prove his point though.

[Guest American Woman]

Fair.

Thank you for acknowledging that.

[kimmy]

Now I feel kind of bad for making fun of Kuzadd's story, and I hope her feelings have not been hurt.

-k

[kuzadd]

Yet you saw color, so that's why I was wondering what the point was. I guess it was to point out that you are a "fool?"

You couldn't be more wrong, but hey, at least you can read.

I will give you a gold star for that.(sincerely)

Apparently,or sadly, your reading skills are better then most others on this forum

Explain this to me??

How could I demonstrate this little gals wisdom in her actions without pointing out that her and I have different skin colours?

How else could I have communicated to you all, the non-judgement in her actions without pointing out our superficial differences?

How else, could I have shown you the wisdom in her youthfullness?

Edited September 25, 2009 by kuzadd

[kuzadd]

Well, gee, I'm nto sure how inclusive you really are being you've just excluded me from the human race...

You choose to exclude yourself.

[Guest American Woman]

Explain this to me??

How could I demonstrate this little gals wisdom in her actions without pointing out that her and I have different skin colours?

How else could I have communicated to you all, the non-judgement in her actions without pointing out our superficial differences?

How else, could I have shown you the wisdom in her youthfullness?

What makes you think her saying "hi" was evidence of "wisdom?" If anything, it's evidence of innocence; the innocence of youth. "Wisdom" is something one acquires. But more than likely, she was just friendly. Nothing more, nothing less.

But here's the thing. You refer to anyone who refers to "races" within the human race as "foolish," but evidently you didn't just say "hi" to a little girl without noticing the color of her skin, and remembering it, no less. So I just don't see how that makes you so different from those of us who recognize "races" exist within the human race, and that's just about everyone. There's nothing wrong with noticing skin color any more than there's anything wrong with noticing hair color or the color of one's eyes. There's nothing wrong with recognizing that we are different races, just as we are different nationalities.

[kimmy]

Although my earlier message was intended as satire, I do work with a young black person who I'm very happy to have work with us because he really is a terrific kid, by any standard.

And I most certainly am conscious of color when he is on the site. And not because I am a bad person, but because I am trying to be the opposite.

I make an extra effort to say hi and smile when he arrives, even on days when I just feel like scowling. I take care to make sure my criticisms are always polite and constructive because I don't want them to be taken the wrong way. I make sure to spend at least a little while working with him every day just to make sure he feels included. And while these are all common sense things to keep in mind when supervising people in general, I make an extra effort to be conscious of them when I am dealing with the young black man.

And... I suppose the argument could be made that it's racist for me to take notice of it at all, to be guarded in what I say or do. Maybe it's patronizing of me to make an effort to avoid causing offense. Maybe I'm wrong to worry that if I cause offense he'll interpret it as evidence of racism. One might argue that the truly non-racist thing to do would be to treat him exactly the same as everybody else on the site. It's a fair point, I suppose.

But for me, what I want is that when people I supervise go home at the end of the day, they feel like I have treated them fairly. I try to be kind and helpful to everyone, but if I have to crap on someone, I certainly do so. And if I do so, it is generally because they've screwed up or are not doing their job or something along that line and I hope they understand that. If they think I have crapped on them because I'm a psycho (@#$*@ I guess I can live with that as long as they start doing what I want them to do. But if someone feels like I have crapped on them because I have an issue with their ancestry, then they're certainly not going to go home feeling like I've treated them fairly. And most of all I want for people to feel like I've treated them fairly.

So, I do see color. It is something I have made an effort to be conscious of at work. I am not sure it is the right attitude to take. My intentions are good, if that counts for anything.

-k

[Pliny]

You choose to exclude yourself.

Because he doesn't agree with you?

You excluded him.

[Pliny]

There's nothing wrong with recognizing that we are different races, just as we are different nationalities.

Good post overall. The rare of occasion where we agree.

[kimmy]

Earlier it was asked why a message is ok when said by some people is considered commendable, but the same message when said by somebody else is considered reprehensible.

And to me, at least, that seemed related to the question of why a message when said about some people is considered reprehensible, but the same message when said about somebody else is considered harmless and amusing.

The blonde thing is the obvious example, of course, but last year's "National Kick A Ginger Day" stands out as well. As some will recall, the TV show "South Park" did a satire in which "ginger kids" -- redheads--

Some people apparently didn't recognize the satire, and used Facebook to organize "National Kick A Ginger Day" for November 20 of last year. The media got wind of it, schools issued warnings. Some people suggested that this was simply a joke and much ado about nothing, and guffawed about political correctness run amok. The guffaws were dampened considerably after numerous attacks on redhead kids were reported, and mass suspensions were handed out at one school.

I think it goes without saying that if someone attempted to organize "National Kick A Muslim Day" or "National Kick An Oriental Day", nobody would consider it a harmless prank. More to the point, I don't think anybody would attempt to organize such an event in the first place, because the wrongness of it is so obvious. Everybody would simply know better. (Even someone evil enough to actually go out with the intention of kicking Muslims or orientals would know better than to advertise his intentions.)

The issue would be so obvious were some religious or ethnic group the target... and yet "National Kick A Ginger Day" actually happened, in Canada, in 2008.

I had assumed that the creators of South Park picked "gingers" as the target of this fictional pogrom because it's just so off the wall. But it's

apparently quite real in England.

-k

[Guest American Woman]

I think it goes without saying that if someone attempted to organize "National Kick A Muslim Day" or "National Kick An Oriental Day", nobody would consider it a harmless prank. More to the point, I don't think anybody would attempt to organize such an event in the first place, because the wrongness of it is so obvious. Everybody would simply know better. (Even someone evil enough to actually go out with the intention of kicking Muslims or orientals would know better than to advertise his intentions.)

The issue would be so obvious were some religious or ethnic group the target... and yet "National Kick A Ginger Day" actually happened, in Canada, in 2008.

The RCMP did investigate this and those involved were possibly facing charges, so it wasn't treated as harmless or amusing by the authorities.

As for your claim that it goes without saying that if someone attempted to organize "National Kick A Muslim Day" or "National Kick An Oriental Day", nobody would consider it a harmless prank, I disagree. I don't doubt that there are people who would react just as some did to "Kick a Ginger Day." With all of the racism and bigotry going on, I'm surprised you would think no one would consider it harmless or amusing.

[Guest American Woman]

Good post overall. The rare of occasion where we agree.

Thank you. But .......We often disagree? I hadn't noticed.

[Pliny]

So, I do see color. It is something I have made an effort to be conscious of at work. I am not sure it is the right attitude to take. My intentions are good, if that counts for anything.

-k

I believe your intentions are good the only thing I would advise then is that you never allow anyone to play the race card against you and that is the difference between you and Liberals that claim "good intentions".

The far-left progressive liberal is a meddler and busybody in the lives of others. They attempt to convince the rest of the populace (and other Liberals are more inclined to be receptive to their do-good schemes because they sound so nice) what "good intentions" they really have and they should make laws to make sure every one is "equal" instead of being "treated equally" under the law. No individual, no family, no group, no business, no organization, no gender, no race, no environment, is equal, and equal means "the same as", and no law can make them equal which is what the progressive liberal is attempting to do through "wealth redistribution" and "leveling the playing fields" and various schemes and dreams. Everyone has a right to be treated equally under the law. That means that a segment of society may hold views considering itself superior and other segments of society inferior even if they are wrong. What they must do is respect other segments of society as having equality under the law and their equal right to exist. They can mutter under their breath all they want about their consideration of other people's inferiority and even discriminate on a private basis but under the law there should be no differentiation of superiority or inferiority. There must be a recognition of a right to the sanctity of person and property.

Kuzzadd's "cute" little story is playing the race card confirming that racism definitely exists and absolving himself of anything other than good intentions. Whites are supposed to feel guilty about the fact Racism exists and Blacks are supposed to feel incensed and thankful for exposing that awful truth.

We all know it exists and Kuzzadds cute, good-intentioned, warm and fuzzy little story enables it to continue in the form of guilt for oppressors and entitlement for the oppressed which is nothing but divisive and predispose society to continue to be racist.

The only way to escape racism is to truly recognize it for what it is and not mask it by granting privilege to one group enabling that group to successfully play the race card. This is what we achieve with affirmative action legislation. Nor should racism be suppressed so that we are unable to recognize it's source.

[kimmy]

The RCMP did investigate this and those involved were possibly facing charges, so it wasn't treated as harmless or amusing by the authorities.

As for your claim that it goes without saying that if someone attempted to organize "National Kick A Muslim Day" or "National Kick An Oriental Day", nobody would consider it a harmless prank, I disagree. I don't doubt that there are people who would react just as some did to "Kick a Ginger Day." With all of the racism and bigotry going on, I'm surprised you would think no one would consider it harmless or amusing.

We both know there are real bigots and racists out there who'd happily kick members of religious or ethnic groups. But I don't think they'd think it was harmless or amusing, I think they'd do it knowing it was harmful and serious.

The difference between "Kick A Ginger Day" and some real hate group is that the "Kick A Ginger Day" kids probably didn't see anything wrong at all. The kid who started the group said it was just a joke, and I strongly suspect that everybody who participated felt the same. I doubt they did it because they sincerely hate red haired people, I think they did it because they thought it was fun and hip and cool and subversive and just didn't see it any harm in it.

Here is the thread that I started last year to discuss the topic. While the authorities did take the issue seriously, several members of the forum didn't. Sir Bandelot, Guyser, and WIP are certainly not lunkheads, they're bright people with centerist views. I think they're pretty mainstream Canadians, and their reaction tells me that probably a lot of other mainstream Canadians felt the same thing... "this is just a joke, it's not really going to happen" or "it's just kids being kids" type reactions... and mainstream Canadians wouldn't react that way if somebody proposed "Kick A Sikh" day.

-k

[Guest American Woman]

We both know there are real bigots and racists out there who'd happily kick members of religious or ethnic groups. But I don't think they'd think it was harmless or amusing, I think they'd do it knowing it was harmful and serious.

The difference between "Kick A Ginger Day" and some real hate group is that the "Kick A Ginger Day" kids probably didn't see anything wrong at all. The kid who started the group said it was just a joke, and I strongly suspect that everybody who participated felt the same. I doubt they did it because they sincerely hate red haired people, I think they did it because they thought it was fun and hip and cool and subversive and just didn't see it any harm in it.

There was a "Hit a Jew Day" in St. Louis, Missouri last fall, too. And like the "Ginger" incident, it was, in the kids' eyes, harmless fun.

Here is the thread that I started last year to discuss the topic. While the authorities did take the issue seriously, several members of the forum didn't. Sir Bandelot, Guyser, and WIP are certainly not lunkheads, they're bright people with centerist views. I think they're pretty mainstream Canadians, and their reaction tells me that probably a lot of other mainstream Canadians felt the same thing... "this is just a joke, it's not really going to happen" or "it's just kids being kids" type reactions... and mainstream Canadians wouldn't react that way if somebody proposed "Kick A Sikh" day.

I think some thought it was just a joke (which is what it was supposed to be) and didn't think anything was really going to happen because there hasn't been a problem with hatred/bigotry/violence towards red-heads in Canada. It was a one time unfortunate incident that didn't have hatred and bigotry behind it. The same cannot be said about continuing bias/bigotry towards Sikhs. If there had been continued bigotry and calls for violence against red-heads, if it were a continuing problem and not a one-time "prank" gone bad, I think you would see a different reaction. As it stands, the situation was not comparable to "Kick A Sikh" day.

[kimmy]

There was a "Hit a Jew Day" in St. Louis, Missouri last fall, too. And like the "Ginger" incident, it was, in the kids' eyes, harmless fun.

Interesting story...

It began with an unofficial "Spirit Week" among sixth-graders that started harmlessly enough with a "Hug a Friend Day." Then there was "High Five Day."

Soon, though, the days moved from friendly to silly. Next there was "Hit a Tall Person Day" and, finally, "Hit a Jew Day."

... funny that this wasn't put a stop to when it reached "Hit A Tall Person Day", don't you think?

These kids learned a very important lesson: you can hit people... you just can't hit Jewish people.

Much like how you can say bigoted, demeaning things about people... as long as you don't say them about people of certain ancestry.

-k

[Guest American Woman]

... funny that this wasn't put a stop to when it reached "Hit A Tall Person Day", don't you think?

These kids learned a very important lesson: you can hit people... you just can't hit Jewish people.

Much like how you can say bigoted, demeaning things about people... as long as you don't say them about people of certain ancestry.

I should have cited a different source.

The adults didn't know about it.

Principal Linda Lelonek learned Monday night that her sixth graders had started an unofficial “spirit week” last week.

According to a Parkway School District representative, the students started with “Hug A Friend Day,” moved to “High Five Day,” “Hit A Tall Person Day,” and then, finally, this Monday, to “Hit A Jew Day.”

None of the students told any adult about the day, Lelonek said. “They said ‘We were just playing.’”

Then, Monday evening, Lelonek got a call from the mother of one of the school’s estimated 35 Jewish students.

Furthermore, they weren't actually "hitting;" according to the article, they were "tagging" whoever was being singled out. It wasn't until "Hit a Jew Day" that one of the kids got slapped in the face.

And again, there is no bigotry aimed at tall people. There is no racism. Singling out tall people is not an ongoing problem like antisemitism is. Your comparisons have no basis.

[Pliny]

Another time we agree, AW.

Racism is not an incident. It is systemic, prolonged and ingrained.

[Pliny]

Just a further thought on my previous post.

Racism in order to be a noticeable problem is generally manifested in a group. Individuals don't in general openly act racist unless racism is backed legally or culturally or a group of one's friends are racist. It is frowned upon today in North America but if cultures are forced to mix racism may become more of a problem. And the Liberals, who have the weird concept that ancestral wrongs must be atoned for by granting entitlements and unrequited adulation instead of, as they like to call it, leveling the playing field by just removing oppression and letting those who were oppressed live their lives as any other American, just aggravate the situation.

Kuzzadd probably has "good intentions" but being a Liberal probably never thought it through past the feel good concept. The far left progressive Liberal originates such good intentions in a meddlesome and busy body way to sanctimoniously feed their egos. Good intentions are a good armour against criticism and you find your most evil doers hiding in that "good intent" for nefarious purposes.

[kimmy]

I should have cited a different source.

And again, there is no bigotry aimed at tall people. There is no racism. Singling out tall people is not an ongoing problem like antisemitism is. Your comparisons have no basis.

This comment from Principal Lelonek really makes the point:

“Not until Monday did any children realize this isn’t good, we’ve crossed the lines,” she said.

To me, they crossed the line when they started slapping other students. To Ms. Lelonek, they crossed the line when they started slapping Jewish students.

We all know that if they'd moved on to "Hit a Fat Kid Day" instead, this doesn't turn into headlines and suspensions and mandatory counselling sessions. And even a statement from the Jewish Anti-Defamation League that this is not mere bullying.

Anyway, I had claimed that nobody would dare to organize an equivalent to "Kick A Ginger Day" prank directed at a non-white or religious group... and by way of proving me wrong you've come up with an incident involving, apparently, 4 sixth grade kids at one school in St Louis. And while it's certainly a counterexample, its scale is such that it helps make the point for me. Kick A Ginger Day: a Facebook group with 5000 members, multiple incidents across Canada, at least one kid hospitalized... Hit a Jew Day: 4 kids at one school who apparently slapped 1 kid.

-k

[kimmy]

Another time we agree, AW.

Racism is not an incident. It is systemic, prolonged and ingrained.

You completely misunderstand the argument I'm making.

I'm not alleging that "Kick A Ginger Day" was racism.

I'm pointing out that because it wasn't "racist", idiots apparently didn't recognize that it was wrong at all.

It's unimaginable that this could have reached that level had it been anybody other than "gingers". Facebook would have immediately deleted the group (and probably forwarded information about its members to the RCMP) had it advocated violence against anybody else. A nationally organized day dedicated to bullying an identifiable group gets 5000 members, results in incidents across Canada (including one kid swarmed by 13 classmates and taken to the hospital). But thank god no Jews were harmed!

-k

[Pliny]

You completely misunderstand the argument I'm making.

I'm not alleging that "Kick A Ginger Day" was racism.

I'm pointing out that because it wasn't "racist", idiots apparently didn't recognize that it was wrong at all.

OK. Then I offer this premise for your consideration.

The mob mentality, the collective consciousness, overwhelmed their individual self-determined thought processes. As long as their is a strong sense of self and your identity of who you are you have less probability of succumbing to the collective mentality.

The failure of Galileo in his time to convince authority that Copernicus was wrong is perhaps due to this "mob mentality". Galileo would not even have broached the subject if he was not a strong individual with a sense of who he was and a confidence in his perceptions.

The public education system does not promote individuality. It promotes peaceful, caring-sharing, compassionate, social relationships, to get along and go along where individuality is a negative quality associated with pejorative terms like selfish, greedy, aloof, self absorbed, uncaring, etc.

Before a child even has time to establish who he is, let alone what is right and wrong, regarding his thoughts and actions, he is subjected to accepting that other people are more important than he is and he must treat them all equally with respect. Nowhere is he encouraged to make any decisions or evaluations regarding other individuals. He does this naturally but it is oppressed and he is forced to treat everyone equally and be caring and sharing. Well, without a strong sense of self he is easily persuaded by others to do what everyone else is doing.

What do you think?

It's unimaginable that this could have reached that level had it been anybody other than "gingers". Facebook would have immediately deleted the group (and probably forwarded information about its members to the RCMP) had it advocated violence against anybody else. A nationally organized day dedicated to bullying an identifiable group gets 5000 members, results in incidents across Canada (including one kid swarmed by 13 classmates and taken to the hospital). But thank god no Jews were harmed!

-k

So there is something wrong about "kick a ginger day". Perhaps if more people had a sense of self identity they would never have participated in it. To respect others you need a strong respect for yourself.

That is why entitlements voted as favour or privilege from government are so debasing. In the do-gooders exuberance to help, such as in the form of affirmative action and granting special interest rights, he destroys personal incentive, and any sense of achievement for the individual.

Edited September 28, 2009 by Pliny

[Guest American Woman]

This comment from Principal Lelonek really makes the point:

“Not until Monday did any children realize this isn’t good, we’ve crossed the lines,” she said.

The children didn't realize they had crossed the line until Monday because that's when the adults found out about it and confronted the children about it. In response, they realized it was wrong.

To me, they crossed the line when they started slapping other students. To Ms. Lelonek, they crossed the line when they started slapping Jewish students.

They didn't "slap" the other students. That's clearly stated in the news articles. I also pointed it out in my previous post. Furthermore, Ms. Lelonek said the children didn't realize they had crossed the line "until Monday," when they were confronted about it. She didn't say "they crossed the line when they started slapping Jewish students," so you are now attributing something to her that has no basis of fact.

We all know that if they'd moved on to "Hit a Fat Kid Day" instead, this doesn't turn into headlines and suspensions and mandatory counselling sessions. And even a statement from the Jewish Anti-Defamation League that this is not mere bullying

No, it wouldn't turn into headlines because it would have been a one time thing. Hardly newsworthy. Antisemitism, however, is on the rise. It's an ongoing problem.

Anyway, I had claimed that nobody would dare to organize an equivalent to "Kick A Ginger Day" prank directed at a non-white or religious group...

Once again, nobody organized "Slap a Ginger Day;" It wasn't posted to "organize" anything. It was posted as a joke.

and by way of proving me wrong you've come up with an incident involving, apparently, 4 sixth grade kids at one school in St Louis.

Yes.....

And while it's certainly a counterexample, its scale is such that it helps make the point for me. Kick A Ginger Day: a Facebook group with 5000 members, multiple incidents across Canada, at least one kid hospitalized... Hit a Jew Day: 4 kids at one school who apparently slapped 1 kid.

They didn't put it on Facebook because it was for Spirit Week at their school, not a prank. But at least you now acknowledge that no one else got slapped before "Hit a Jew Day;" before Monday. Furthermore, both incidents were handled the same way by the authorities. No one thought either incident was "ok."

But the fact is, you are helping make my point for me since you seem to think only one Jew getting slapped was a pretty minor thing compared to what happened to the redheads in Canada. Now compare what happened to the redheads in Canada to what's happened, and continues to happen, to Blacks, Jews, Sikhs, and any other religion/race/nationality that has been suffering from racism/bigotry/violence and you should understand why "Kick a Ginger Day" didn't get the same response as it would have had the others been targeted. You yourself aren't having the same response to the two incidents being discussed because they weren't on the same scale.

And once again. "Kick a Ginger Day" was supposed to be a joke. It wasn't posted with malicious intent. It was a prank. You do get that, right? The intent was not to have red-headed kids kicked, picked on, or anything else. It was posted as a joke.

Had someone posted "Kick a Jew Day" or "Hit a Black Day" etc. I don't think people would have thought it was a joke, and I don't think anyone would have posted it about them because it wouldn't have been perceived as funny. The kid involved in "Kick a Ginger Day" thought it was funny because of the tv show. Not because he had anything against redheads. Redheads in Canada are not singled out and subjected to racism/bigotry/violence. Can't say the same for Blacks, Jews, and Sikhs. This, again, is why it didn't get the same response. However, once it became more than a joke, the RCMP was there. Same as they would have been for Blacks, Jews, or Sikhs. The difference is that redheads will not continue to suffer the racism/bigotry/violence that Blacks, Jews, and Sikhs would continue to be subjected to had the day been about them. Again, that's why the former didn't get the same reaction as the latter, had it been about them.

Edited September 28, 2009 by American Woman

[kimmy]

The children didn't realize they had crossed the line until Monday because that's when the adults found out about it and confronted the children about it. In response, they realized it was wrong.

That's clearly false. The principal didn't find out about it until Monday evening, and the children were not confronted until Tuesday morning.

They didn't "slap" the other students. That's clearly stated in the news articles. I also pointed it out in my previous post. Furthermore, Ms. Lelonek said the children didn't realize they had crossed the line "until Monday," when they were confronted about it. She didn't say "they crossed the line when they started slapping Jewish students," so you are now attributing something to her that has no basis of fact.

Your article does not state which students were slapped, and says "at least one" student was slapped. Nothing in the article suggests that the Jewish students were the recipient of more aggressive behaviour than others. And as already pointed out, the students were not confronted about their behaviour until Tuesday.

And once again. "Kick a Ginger Day" was supposed to be a joke. It wasn't posted with malicious intent. It was a prank. You do get that, right? The intent was not to have red-headed kids kicked, picked on, or anything else. It was posted as a joke.

Had someone posted "Kick a Jew Day" or "Hit a Black Day" etc. I don't think people would have thought it was a joke, and I don't think anyone would have posted it about them because it wouldn't have been perceived as funny.

And finally we are on the same page.

We both know that people tolerated "Kick A Ginger Day" because they thought it was a harmless prank, and we both know that nobody would have tolerated"Kick A Jew Day".

So, how did we become a society where people are smart enough to recognize that the one is absolutely not funny, yet still stupid enough to think that the other is funny?

What I'm wondering is: the 13 kids participating in the swarming that led to the kid being taken to hospital... are they thinking "Well, he's not brown and he's not Jewish, so this is just harmless fun"?

-k