wyly Posted October 7, 2009 Report Share Posted October 7, 2009 Without question. I'm in complete agreement. I can build a house from the ground up by myself how about you? I can strip down a motorcycle or car down to the bare frame and rebuild it how about you??? I speak two languages and can understand portions of two more how about you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Canada Posted October 7, 2009 Report Share Posted October 7, 2009 so then I have to ask what were exact answers, how good is her English comprehension, how well does she speak english? things get lost in translation I've seen it happen many times...the point being everyone is jumping to conclusions without knowing the full story, that's for a judge to decide... We don't know yet. We're still waiting for the government of Canada to release the full info. All we know for sure is that she got many if not all the simplist of questions wrong. How does a person like this pass the citizenship test? I'm with Kenney on this, we seriously have to look at our testing criteria as this is basic info any Canadian should know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted October 7, 2009 Report Share Posted October 7, 2009 really? that's a cultural bias...I have some african friends ...... So you think they will play the ignorant savage defense? No Bwana, no savvy birthing day....the day number the great bwana gave my manchild, I forgetting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capricorn Posted October 7, 2009 Report Share Posted October 7, 2009 I have some african friends who tell me it's very common in africa not to have a birth certificate, not to know your day, month and year of your birth...when they immigrate to canada they have day and year picked at random of official purposes like school requirements or official documents...so if you come from a country where it is not important does it mean that automatically does here?... Seems to me if an arbitrary number or date was selected to identify me in a foreign land and which is a determinant in my entitlements in my new country, I would be especially diligent to memorize that date. I don't think those individuals are stupid enough not to realize the importance of such information. I don't know her situation if this is the case but don't be so quick to judge and assume guilt before you know the facts... I would suggest that if this advice is good enough for the posters here, it should also be good enough for the Liberal party. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted October 7, 2009 Report Share Posted October 7, 2009 We don't know yet. We're still waiting for the government of Canada to release the full info. All we know for sure is that she got many if not all the simplist of questions wrong.How does a person like this pass the citizenship test? I'm with Kenney on this, we seriously have to look at our testing criteria as this is basic info any Canadian should know. one of the few times I'll agree with you... I seriously doubt most Canadians could pass the citizenship test that immigrants must pass, but she wasn't asked those questions but personal questions that everyone assumes must be relevant to her...I don't think knowing the name of toronto transit is required knowledge on the citizenship exam... incidentally when my kids took a citizenship test along with their classmates in high school most failed, they brought it home for me..I passed... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted October 7, 2009 Report Share Posted October 7, 2009 So you think they will play the ignorant savage defense? No Bwana, no savvy birthing day....the day number the great bwana gave my manchild, I forgetting now you're being cultural ignorant, what's your defense? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted October 7, 2009 Report Share Posted October 7, 2009 (edited) Seems to me if an arbitrary number or date was selected to identify me in a foreign land and which is a determinant in my entitlements in my new country, I would be especially diligent to memorize that date. I don't think those individuals are stupid enough not to realize the importance of such information.I would suggest that if this advice is good enough for the posters here, it should also be good enough for the Liberal party. I at one time memorized my DL number I don't know why eevn though it changed 9 yrs ago I still recall it, I don't know my SI number, I keep forgetting my PIN number...important information but they're just numbers to me....I can tell my sister-in-law 10 or more phone numbers in the morning and without writing them down she recite them back to me that night in order, is she smart? nope dumb as a post but an incredible memory for numbers...and if they're numbers not important to you personally it becomes even of less importance to remember... Edited October 7, 2009 by wyly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted October 7, 2009 Report Share Posted October 7, 2009 now you're being cultural ignorant, what's your defense? I am not. Why just the other day I watched the Snows of Kilimanjaro and a few weeks before, Hatari. Now I would not suggest that Africans are stupid, but you seem to... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest American Woman Posted October 7, 2009 Report Share Posted October 7, 2009 (edited) really? that's a cultural bias...I have some african friends who tell me it's very common in africa not to have a birth certificate, not to know your day, month and year of your birth...when they immigrate to canada they have day and year picked at random for school requirements or official documents...so if you come from a country where it is not important does it mean that automatically does here?... When one has been living here for ten years, and has had to fill in the DOB for "school requirements or official documents" during those ten years, one is expected to remember because it is important in Canada. Furthermore, not having a birth certificate doesn't erase the memory of where one's only child was born. It also doesn't take away the ability to state what you do at your workplace. then there is my father-in-law from china who tells me in China you would be either two or one year older than you are here depending on the month of your birth, in his case two years...I tried to understand that but haven't as yet...so imagine trying to explain that to a Canadian immigration official, "I know my passport says I'm thirty and that's correct but I'm really 32 which is also correct" If she were from China, that might be relevant. However, if one knows what their passport says, when one is asked by custom officials how old they are, one would generally know to give the answer on their passport. I don't know her situation if this is the case but don't be so quick to judge and assume guilt before you know the facts... How about you take your own advice and don't be so quick to falsely accuse me of having assumed her guilt? I have never claimed she was guilty, so try to keep that in mind, even if it isn't something that's "important to you." I know what's going on in my personal life, remembering unimportant dates is not one of them...if you want to attach significance to numbers on a calendar feel free to do so... The government of the country she chose to become a citizen in attaches significance to numbers on a calendar, even if you personally don't; and I would say the government's placing importance on it trumps your feelings on the matter. Edited October 7, 2009 by American Woman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted October 7, 2009 Report Share Posted October 7, 2009 (edited) When one has been living here for ten years, and has had to fill in the DOB for "school requirements or official documents" during those ten years, one is expected to remember because it is important in Canada. Furthermore, not having a birth certificate doesn't erase the memory of where one's only child was born. It also doesn't take away the ability to state what you do at your workplace.where is that written? I must remember my kids date of birth or I will be tossed in jail?...again what is significant for you may not hold true for someone else...would you kill or sell your child? of course not, neither would I, but others have without hesitation...the exact date of my kids birth is unimportant to me, only that I was there mattered... If she were from China, that might be relevant. However, if one knows what their passport says, when one is asked by custom officials how old they are, one would generally know to give the answer on their passport.the point being culture is important, we may not understand her's and no one should judge her until her story is told fully...and having met Somali's, Ethiopians and Eritreans(all the same region) I know from experience it's questionable she knows her actual birthday...and if her son was born there(I don't know) she likely won't know his either...How about you take your own advice and don't be so quick to falsely accuse me of having assumed her guilt? I have never claimed she was guilty, so try to keep that in mind, even if it isn't something that's "important to you."have you defended her from premature judgment? or criticized her?The government of the country she chose to become a citizen in attaches significance to numbers on a calendar, even if you personally don't; and I would say the government's placing importance on it trumps your feelings on the matter. hmm maybe I should check my immigration paperwork and see where it says "the government of Canada insists you memorize your wife's anniversary and the name of your local transit company"...naw I know it's not there... Edited October 7, 2009 by wyly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest American Woman Posted October 7, 2009 Report Share Posted October 7, 2009 where is that written? I must remember my kids date of birth or I will be tossed in jail?... You have to know your child's date of birth, as you yourself said, for "school requirements or official documents." As for being tossed in jail, she was jailed in Kenya, not Canada, so you'll have to take that up with the Kenyan government. again what is significant for you may not hold true for someone else...would you kill or sell your child? of course not, neither would I, but others have without hesitation...the exact date of my kids birth is unimportant to me, only that I was there mattered... Ummmm, those who have killed or sold their child committed a crime, so I think you're really stretching there. And again, whether or not one deems the birth of their son "important" or not, one generally remembers it and where it happened. the point being culture is important, we may not understand her's and no one should judge her until her story is told fully...and having met Somali's, Ethiopians and Eritreans(all the same region) I know from experience it's questionable she knows her actual birthday... You don't seem to understand that there is a difference between "judging" and "questioning." You think we should have no thoughts on this? You think we have no right to our questions? To our opinions? You would prefer that there be a gag order on this case? As I said before, one generally knows what age is given on one's passport, and therefore, one generally knows that is the age to give when asked one's age by custom officials. She managed to pass the citizenship test, and I doubt if her DOB was the most difficult question on the exam. and if her son was born there(I don't know) Evidently she doesn't know, either. have you defended her from premature judgment? or criticized her? I've done neither. So that means I've assumed her guilt in your eyes? As you criticize others for "judging?" hmm maybe I should check my immigration paperwork and see where it says "the government of Canada insists you memorize your wife's anniversary and the name of your local transit company"...naw I know it's not there... I haven't once brought up those issues, so I have no idea why you're bringing them up in response to me now. Perhaps because it's easier than responding to the issues I have brought up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riverwind Posted October 7, 2009 Report Share Posted October 7, 2009 hmm maybe I should check my immigration paperwork and see where it says "the government of Canada insists you memorize your wife's anniversary and the name of your local transit company"...naw I know it's not there...You are missing the entire point. If she was, in fact, not able to answer the questions stated then the consular officials would have reasonable grounds to suspect fraud and the subsequent delays verifying her identity maybe perfectly justified (depending on the reasons for the specific delays). The fact that she is innocent is irrelevant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Kwon Posted October 7, 2009 Report Share Posted October 7, 2009 You are missing the entire point. If she was, in fact, not able to answer the questions stated then the consular officials would have reasonable grounds to suspect fraud and the subsequent delays verifying her identity maybe perfectly justified (depending on the reasons for the specific delays). The fact that she is innocent is irrelevant. Wyly obviously never took law course in high school, so he will probably not understand what "reasonable grounds" mean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest American Woman Posted October 7, 2009 Report Share Posted October 7, 2009 You are missing the entire point. If she was, in fact, not able to answer the questions stated then the consular officials would have reasonable grounds to suspect fraud and the subsequent delays verifying her identity maybe perfectly justified (depending on the reasons for the specific delays). The fact that she is innocent is irrelevant. Unless I'm mistaken, I think he's saying that it's normal not to know the answers to the questions she was asked, and therefore there were no "reasonable grounds." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riverwind Posted October 7, 2009 Report Share Posted October 7, 2009 (edited) Unless I'm mistaken, I think he's saying that it's normal not to know the answers to the questions she was asked, and therefore there were no "reasonable grounds."The fact that there is even a debate on this board on the usefulness of the questions demonstrates that it was reasonable to expect someone to be able to answer them. Now Wyly may be come up with some clever way to argue that they were not reasonable but that does not mean a person who had never heard his arguments was unreasonable for expecting someone to be able to answer them. Edited October 7, 2009 by Riverwind Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted October 7, 2009 Report Share Posted October 7, 2009 I can build a house from the ground up by myself how about you? I can strip down a motorcycle or car down to the bare frame and rebuild it how about you??? I speak two languages and can understand portions of two more how about you? Can you make a coherent argument in the other one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted October 7, 2009 Report Share Posted October 7, 2009 now you're being cultural ignorant, what's your defense? You still haven't tried to explain how she was unable to tell them what she did at work, or why she couldn't name any of her teachers at the college she supposedly was attending. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ba1614 Posted October 8, 2009 Report Share Posted October 8, 2009 You still haven't tried to explain how she was unable to tell them what she did at work, or why she couldn't name any of her teachers at the college she supposedly was attending. She didn't deem them things important enough in her life to bother remembering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keepitsimple Posted October 8, 2009 Report Share Posted October 8, 2009 (edited) Here's a few more tidbits: He suspected the woman he interviewed three times over a five-day period was Mohamud's younger sister, Jihan Haji Mohamud, who is listed on Mohamud's immigration application. However, Mohamud says no such sister exists – a claim that was supported by her husband when reached by telephone in Nairobi on Wednesday. "I don't have a sister younger than me, older than me, I have no sister over there," she said. Somebody else filled out the original immigration application, she said. Link: http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/70...man-experts-say In her notice of action, she says that in 2007 she married Mohamud Osman, a Kenyan of Somali origin who lives in Nairobi. The notice says she took a planned three-week vacation to Kenya partly to visit him, and not only her mother, as she previously said in interviews. In the lawsuit, the husband and mother each claim $100,000 as part of the $2.6 million in damages. Link: http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article...ster-in-mohamud Edited October 8, 2009 by Keepitsimple Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted October 8, 2009 Report Share Posted October 8, 2009 When one has been living here for ten years, and has had to fill in the DOB for "school requirements or official documents" during those ten years, one is expected to remember because it is important in Canada. Furthermore, not having a birth certificate doesn't erase the memory of where one's only child was born. It also doesn't take away the ability to state what you do at your workplace. because you're assuming she attaches the same value to things as you do, you don't know what is important to her or her situation...you're prejudging her... If she were from China, that might be relevant. However, if one knows what their passport says, when one is asked by custom officials how old they are, one would generally know to give the answer on their passport.again you don't know her culture and are prejudging...there is no assumption of innocence on your part but there is evidentally a suspicion of guilt with no evidence.How about you take your own advice and don't be so quick to falsely accuse me of having assumed her guilt? I have never claimed she was guilty, so try to keep that in mind, even if it isn't something that's "important to you."your predjudice is evident in your previous statements...I have never claimed she was innocent or guilty...The government of the country she chose to become a citizen in attaches significance to numbers on a calendar, even if you personally don't; and I would say the government's placing importance on it trumps your feelings on the matter.the government only requests information not that I memorize it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted October 8, 2009 Report Share Posted October 8, 2009 Wyly obviously never took law course in high school, so he will probably not understand what "reasonable grounds" mean. apparently you missed the part about "Innocent until proven guilty" it's a minor detail I know but you'll understand the relevance of it in time... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted October 8, 2009 Report Share Posted October 8, 2009 The fact that there is even a debate on this board on the usefulness of the questions demonstrates that it was reasonable to expect someone to be able to answer them. Now Wyly may be come up with some clever way to argue that they were not reasonable but that does not mean a person who had never heard his arguments was unreasonable for expecting someone to be able to answer them. I think a consular official should be aware of cultural differences, how a native born Canadian sees the world is different than others see it, being culturally aware/sensitive is critical...I can accept the average canadcian gives it no thought as evidenced here but government officials should be... I recall my father in hospital ill MD's ran into a translation problem he answered their questions correctly they just didn't understand what he was telling them...they began treating him as if he was delusional, his mind was fine...it was "lost in translation"... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmy Posted October 8, 2009 Report Share Posted October 8, 2009 Myata posted something important earlier that I think bears repeating: I don't think we should write off those 2.5 millions just yet. And, I'm all for this actually going to the court, so that at least not every legitimate attempt to prevent illegal entry to Canada is instantly interpreted as an abuse of power of state. I don't like the *assumption* that our officials acted improperly. If it is proven to be so, then so be it. But a lot of the publicity regarding this case has taken it for granted that Canadian officials acted improperly. Editorials decrying the racism of Canada's institutions and the callous treatment of this poor victim have all taken for granted that she is simply a hapless victim and that Canada is at fault. Anna Maria Tremonti and the Toronto Star have been talking as if the government's fault was obvious on the face of it. Since the filing of the lawsuit, the consulate's side of the story has come out, and it bears listening to. It seems like a lot of people had forgotten that there are two sides to the story and I hope that our public service stands up for its reputation this time so that people will remember that in the future. -k Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riverwind Posted October 8, 2009 Report Share Posted October 8, 2009 (edited) I think a consular official should be aware of cultural differences, how a native born Canadian sees the world is different than others see itI think your arguments are hogwash and simply another example of excuse making design to allow individuals to evade responsibilities for their choices. Anyone who had been in the country as she had should have been able to answer some or all of the questions. I also think that the majority of people feel the same way and it is the majority opinion that decides what "reasonable" is when it comes to deciding whether the consular officials acted reasonably. Edited October 8, 2009 by Riverwind Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerrySeinfeld Posted October 8, 2009 Report Share Posted October 8, 2009 If this chick gets $2.5 million for a case of mistaken identity, please can someone tell me where I can sign up to be put in a foreign prison for 9 days? cheers Jerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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