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Why Harper won't get my vote


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Tell me, can any of the gibbering dupes here actually back up their claims that the NDP is a "hard" left party?

What do you believe is "hard" left? They aren't the Communist party, if that's what you mean. On the other hand, I bet there are a lot of NDP MPs who are highly sympathetic to Communism and Marxism. And far too many seem extremely hostile towards Capitalism and the ideology behind it.

Hard left? Maybe not. But too left.

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Tell me, can any of the gibbering dupes here actually back up their claims that the NDP is a "hard" left party?

If you want to cite some NDP policies and explain what's wrong, I'd be happy to discuss.

Because all the snide (and not particularily clever) one-liners, show is you've add nothing to the discussion, that you're more interested in mud-slinging than in real debate on the direction the country should go. You're all smirk, no substance.

Well judging by your post i am obviously not the only one interested in mudslinging, and i was jsut attacking your mis-guided dictionary, and did nto actually go to the point of an out right attack and call you gibbering dupe, so you seem to have plenty of fun bakign your mud pies as well.

As it stands i am not the one who has to defend my beliefs that the NDP is a left wing party; A political alternative

"The primary purpose of the New Democratic Party is to offer a vision for Canada where people come first; a clear democratic socialist political alternative. "

"http://action.web.ca/home/ndpnpd/en_aboutus.shtml?sh_itm=dd6a1651b4576c7edf77070a6d2bd8c0"

Now I ask you again, is it your dictionary that is wrong, in defining centrist, as even your own party admits to being socialist. Now please realise we have not got to debating policy yet. What we are debating is if the NDP is left wing, and not weather being left wing is bad or good, but wether or not the NDP is left wing. i am not using Socialist in anyway to demean the NDP, but I am using it to suggest they are left wing as does your party. What i am askign you is why you consistently argue that a party such as the NDP, which identifies it self as left wing, is in fact not left wing.

As for debatign policy, i see no advancement in debatign policy wiht you as of now. I think every sentence that woudl be spoken, we would have another one of these discussions on what words actually mena, therefore we woudl be enbattled in a fruitless arguement that gives none of us any sense of fun niether allows us to see each others political views.

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Well judging by your post i am obviously not the only one interested in mudslinging, and i was jsut attacking your mis-guided dictionary, and did nto actually go to the point of an out right attack and call you gibbering dupe, so you seem to have plenty of fun bakign your mud pies as well.

I apologise for the off-the cuff remark. Understand that there's enough people on this board willing to smear others without backing it up (see pretty much anything Alliance Fanatic writes about the NDs) that I sometimes get carried away. Sorry.

Now I ask you again, is it your dictionary that is wrong, in defining centrist, as even your own party admits to being socialist. Now please realise we have not got to debating policy yet. What we are debating is if the NDP is left wing, and not weather being left wing is bad or good, but wether or not the NDP is left wing. i am not using Socialist in anyway to demean the NDP, but I am using it to suggest they are left wing as does your party. What i am askign you is why you consistently argue that a party such as the NDP, which identifies it self as left wing, is in fact not left wing.

Okay then. Thanks for the clarification. I'll concede that, by dictionary definition, the NDP are a left-wing party. However, policy-wise the current NDP has shifted more to the centre, through such moves as a commitment to balanced budgets. Further, I reiterate that the traditionally centerist Liberals have shifted dramatically to the right, which further skews the spectrum. In conclusion: the NDP: democratic socialist? Yes. Radical? Not even close.

Have a good day. :)

Canada had a very tiny debt load until the Liberals under Trudeau got at it. By the time he was out we had a big fat debt. Then Mulroney took over. At that time there was a worldwide recession, high unemployment and sky high interest rates. All the debt the Liberals had rung up was on loans which rose and fell with the going interest rates. Interest rates shot up into the high teens and lower twenties. Because of this the Trudeau debt ballooned over the following decade.

Wrong. Social programs accounted for about 15 per cent of the debt growth in the early '80s. In fact, spending on social program like UI and the CPP was keeping pace with Canada's economic growth.

The jump in interest rates came about as a result of the Bank of Canada's policies (policies which were backed by the Mulroney Tories and the investor community) which saw the bank jack the interest rates in a bid to stamp out inflation.

They succeded, and also managed to plunge the country into a recession, slowing economic output and driving up unemployment. (In 1994, the Canadian Economics Association concluded a lengthy technical study that found that the country's deficit problems were almost entirely the result of the recession.)

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I apologise for the off-the cuff remark. Understand that there's enough people on this board willing to smear others without backing it up (see pretty much anything Alliance Fanatic writes about the NDs) that I sometimes get carried away. Sorry.

sounds good to me, I realise that i can be suceptable to the same thing, so all is fine on that front.

Okay then. Thanks for the clarification. I'll concede that, by dictionary definition, the NDP are a left-wing party. However, policy-wise the current NDP has shifted more to the centre, through such moves as a commitment to balanced budgets. Further, I reiterate that the traditionally centerist Liberals have shifted dramatically to the right, which further skews the spectrum. In conclusion: the NDP: democratic socialist? Yes. Radical? Not even close.

Have a good day. :)

Well it was never my intention to paint them as radicals but I maintain that the NDP is certianly a left wing party and still a way's away from being a centrist party. I will concede that the liberals have shifted to the right, but imho just slightly, however I find it hard to paint it as a dramatic shift to the right.

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Canada had a very tiny debt load until the Liberals under Trudeau got at it. By the time he was out we had a big fat debt. Then Mulroney took over. At that time there was a worldwide recession, high unemployment and sky high interest rates. All the debt the Liberals had rung up was on loans which rose and fell with the going interest rates. Interest rates shot up into the high teens and lower twenties. Because of this the Trudeau debt ballooned over the following decade.

The jump in interest rates came about as a result of the Bank of Canada's policies (policies which were backed by the Mulroney Tories and the investor community) which saw the bank jack the interest rates in a bid to stamp out inflation.

They succeded, and also managed to plunge the country into a recession, slowing economic output and driving up unemployment. (In 1994, the Canadian Economics Association concluded a lengthy technical study that found that the country's deficit problems were almost entirely the result of the recession.)

It's absurd to think that Canada existed in a vacuum. Canada did jack up interest rates - as did the US, as did Europe. You can't leave interest rates much lower than those other nations or money will flee to the economic area where it will get a higher return. And I think it's ludicrous to try to blame a world-wide recession, which began before Mulroney took office, on the Tories.

And the restuls, on the accumulated debt created by the Liberals, was that this debt ballooned in size. Blame the Liberals, including their finance minister Jean Chretien, not Mulroney.

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Canada did jack up interest rates - as did the US, as did Europe. You can't leave interest rates much lower than those other nations or money will flee to the economic area where it will get a higher return. And I think it's ludicrous to try to blame a world-wide recession, which began before Mulroney took office, on the Tories.

If you're in a recession, high interest rates will make debt problems worse. The rising cost of interest payments accounted for 70 per cent of Canada's debt growth during the Mulroney years. Raising interest rates during a recession, while pursuing a policy of debt reduction and zero-inflation is the equivilant of amputating one's foot to fix a broken arm.

Canada's response to falling interest rates was completely diproportinate, as few other nations pursued the zero-inflation goal with as much zeal as Canada.

The final point would be that, for all his program-slashing and defecit reducing zeal, Mulroney's government failed to balance the budget and restore the economy to health.

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Raising interest rates during a recession, while pursuing a policy of debt reduction and zero-inflation is the equivilant of amputating one's foot to fix a broken arm.

What the Bank raised was the nominal interest rate. No single power on Earth, and certainly not the Bank of Canada, can control the real interest rate.

The confusion about this is what caused the problem in the first place. Fortunately, Central Banks in the western world are now independent of the government.

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A good example of what this article's author is aluding to, is now that the US invasion of Iraq has turned into a nightmare, Harper is trying to change his position about Canada's involvement.  It is just not going to wash for most Canadians.

Do you have a cite for that? I've heard a few people make this comment, but it always turned out they were referring to Harper stating that right now we don't have the troops to send to Iraq - because the military has been all but destroyed by the Liberals, and because what's left of it is spread too thin in Afghanistan and Bosnia. He has not, to my knowledge, expressed any doubt about the basic mission or the need for it, or the need to, as he sees it, support our friends the Americans. Any cite you have to the contary would be welcome.

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Canada did jack up interest rates - as did the US, as did Europe. You can't leave interest rates much lower than those other nations or money will flee to the economic area where it will get a higher return. And I think it's ludicrous to try to blame a world-wide recession, which began before Mulroney took office, on the Tories.

If you're in a recession, high interest rates will make debt problems worse. The rising cost of interest payments accounted for 70 per cent of Canada's debt growth during the Mulroney years. Raising interest rates during a recession, while pursuing a policy of debt reduction and zero-inflation is the equivilant of amputating one's foot to fix a broken arm.

Canada's response to falling interest rates was completely diproportinate, as few other nations pursued the zero-inflation goal with as much zeal as Canada.

The final point would be that, for all his program-slashing and defecit reducing zeal, Mulroney's government failed to balance the budget and restore the economy to health.

Do you know what the interest rates and inflation rates were in other western nations about the same time? You appear to be stating that the bank of Canada pursued higher interest rates than anyone else. I'd like to see a comparison. I know our rates are generally a point or half point higher than the US to attract investment to our less enticing economy. Are you suggesting our interest rates were considerably higher?

As to the advisability of pursuing higher interest rates in a recession, I agree they're harmful, but are they as harmful as runaway inflation? In the long term?

As for your final "point", who do you think could have done a better job given a world wide recession which hit the Americans, our biggest customers, particularly hard?

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You appear to be stating that the bank of Canada pursued higher interest rates than anyone else.

No, I'm saying the Bank of Canada and Mulroney government were particularily fervrent in their pursuit of zero inflation. They even overshot their own targets and reached the mark far earlier than expected. new Zealand, another zero-inflation crusader, managed around 1 per cent inflation during the same period. I don't have any figures handy to compare interest rates, though I imagine Canada's was in line with the U.S.'s.

As to the advisability of pursuing higher interest rates in a recession, I agree they're harmful, but are they as harmful as runaway inflation? In the long term?

Runaway inflation? canada's infalation rate at the end of the Trudeau years was IIIRC) around 7 or 8 per cent, which is managable. We're not talking pre-war Germany with 40 per cent and higher inflation. Inflation can be offset by economic growth, provided th einflation rate remains around 10 per cent. It's a balancing act. However, during the Mulroney years, we saw the balance tip firmly in the direction of anti-inflation measures, which sunk the economy as a whole, but reaped enormous profits for credit holders such as the major banks.

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I don't have any figures handy to compare interest rates, though I imagine Canada's was in line with the U.S.'s..

If Canada's interest rates were in line with those of the US what other policies encouraged high unemployment? It's not that Mulroney is my favorite politician - far from it - but my impression is that during the recession there was little they could do unless they went the way of the NDP and tried to spend their way out of it. I think that would have been disastrous given the international nature of the recession and the dual and at that time unique problems of very high inflation and very high unemployment combined with an already huge deficit.

Runaway inflation? canada's infalation rate at the end of the Trudeau years was IIIRC) around 7 or 8 per cent, which is managable. We're not talking pre-war Germany with 40 per cent and higher inflation.  Inflation can be offset by economic growth, provided th einflation rate remains around 10 per cent. It's a balancing act.

I can't remember the exact rates at the time, but I know they were into double digits, and borrowing costs were even higher. Again, we couldn't keep our interest rates below those of the US or we'd have had money sucked away from our economy. As for high growth - that wasn't going to happen with double digit unemployment and the west in a deep recession.

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Its completely stupid to consider the New Democrats centrist. I did a political test on Politopia and I was actually in the center. www.politopia.com.

Any party that is 100% supportive of gay rights, abortion, feminism, enviromental activism, pro immigration, and against the war on Osama Bin Laden is not a centrist party.

In reality the only centrist party is the Conservative party, due to the fact they have middle of the road positions on every issue facing Canadians. While the lib's and NDP are simply left wing on all issues such as immigration, multiculturalism, abortion, feminism, and gay rights.

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Its completely stupid to consider the New Democrats centrist. I did a political test on Politopia and I was actually in the center. www.politopia.com.

Any party that is 100% supportive of gay rights, abortion, feminism, enviromental activism, pro immigration, and against the war on Osama Bin Laden is not a centrist party.

In reality the only centrist party is the Conservative party, due to the fact they have middle of the road positions on every issue facing Canadians. While the lib's and NDP are simply left wing on all issues such as immigration, multiculturalism, abortion, feminism, and gay rights.

If the 'war' was againt Osama Bin Laden, then why aren't we bombing Saudi Arabia? After all, he is a Saudi citizen, and most of the funding for his group came from the Saudi government.

Instead, America has become the kind of tyrant that they supposedly toppled. Is this the 'war' you think Canada should join? If so, please ask your Conservative party to make this position known so that at least we know what their real view is.

As for social issues like gay rights, abortion, the NDP has taken a more social-libertarian view in that the state has no business in regulating interpersonal relationships and should not interfere with the private affairs of citizens as consenting adults. The Taliban did that however.

Are you anti-immirgrant? Please state your view. Give us some good links and information that shows up that you and your Conservative party think alike on this.

And what the hell is your problem with environmental sustainability? There are far more jobs in protecting the environment than destroying it. Will you be happy with bald mountainsides or Los Angeles smog? :(

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If the 'war' was againt Osama Bin Laden, then why aren't we bombing Saudi Arabia? After all, he is a Saudi citizen, and most of the funding for his group came from the Saudi government.

I believe that one of the reasons the US went into Iraq was so they didn't have to suck up to the Saudis any more. If they could put a "friend" in charge of Iraq, then Saudi oil assumed a much lessor degree of importance and they could begin to put real pressure on the Saudis to stop funding their vicious, hateful Wahabi version of Islam all over the world. Half the mosques in the US are controlled by Wahabi mullahs because of Saudi funding, and it's the same throughout the West. But nobody has dared complain too much. I note that it wasn't until the US took over Iraq that we started hearing about Saudi crackdowns on their religious fanatics and shootouts with fundamentalists in SA.

Instead, America has become the kind of tyrant that they supposedly toppled.

Oh please. One of the dumber things I keep reading is people equating the US embarrassing and humiliating Iraqi prisoners with the kind of things the Iraqi government used to do (ripping out fingernails, jamming hot irons into rectums, castration, gouging out eyes with spoons, etc.). Let's put aside our hatred of the Americans and have a little perspective, please.

As for social issues like gay rights, abortion, the NDP has taken a more social-libertarian view in that the state has no business in regulating interpersonal relationships and should not interfere with the private affairs of citizens as consenting adults. The Taliban did that however.

Oh if only that were true. The fact is that one of the reasons I will never vote NDP (their tendency to tax the hell out of the middle class is the second) is their determination that the state has PLENTY of business in ALL your relationships, everything you do, everything you think, everything you read, watch or say. The NDP and its social engineers want to create the perfect utopian world, and one of the ways they want to do that is by stomping out behaviour with which they dissaprove, be it pornography which offends their delicate sensibilities (but not gay porn, oh no, that's empowering!) or cracking down on free speech which offends people, or forcing businesses into collapse because they offend the NDPs socialist mentality (ie for profit day care).

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I was in New Zealand in '87, if memory serves me correctly the interest rates were 32%.

That would be at the peak of the New Zealand neoliberal "experiment" (1984-1988). Prior to these reforms, New Zealand was even more regulated than Canada. The austerity measures introduced to fight inflation involved massive economic "shock treatment", which included mass privatization and deregulation. Of course, the whole "experiment" was an abject failure and many of the reforms of that period are being reversed.

The NDP and its social engineers want to create the perfect utopian world, and one of the ways they want to do that is by stomping out behaviour with which they dissaprove, be it pornography which offends their delicate sensibilities (but not gay porn, oh no, that's empowering!) or cracking down on free speech which offends people, or forcing businesses into collapse because they offend the NDPs socialist mentality (ie for profit day care).

Still more unsubstansiated fear-mongering with nothing to suppport it. You guys can't do better?

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Any person that says the NDP is libertarian is a complete idiot. The NDP wants to directly interven in peoples lives, they want to shut down debate on abortion, gay rights, employment equity, multiculturalism, and a host of other social issues. As for the NDP supporting the average Canadian, that is complete BS. The vast majority of Canadian's want the Kadhrs deported, and would like to see the government get out of their personal life. The NDP has forced children to learn about the joys of gay sex in BC, starting at the age of ten.

As for the NDP supporting the family farm, that is a complete joke. Does any farmer really support the idea of his kids learning how to have safe anal sex, and being forced to believe that homosexuality is a healthy lifestyle, I highly doubt it.

By the way those New Democrats that say that what happens in the bedroom between consenting adults is their own business are idiots. The reason why is that human rights commissions have forced small towns, and Edmonton to have gay pride parades that display leather clad men, and S&M. So what the left is trying to do is shove homosexuality down everybodies throats.

If the NDP believes that they are representative of the average joe, than why are they against referendums on abortion, gay rights, or a host of social issues.

I was also on the NDP website, and was turned off by it. I mean they blamed every single problem in the world on corporations and the rich. I mean try growing a brain jack.

The NDP also supports giving more money to the Canadian version of PRAVDA to tell the masses on the beauty of comrade Layton, and the great 5 year plan.

"The NDP believes referenda should be used only in cases of governmental reform, such as major constitutional changes or issues such as enacting proportional representation."

Yeah the NDP would be against referenda on any social issue Canadian's are concerned about. Any person that believes that another man having anal intercourse with another man is a bigot don't you know.

The NDP does not have any real policies, lets get this straight they are the party of the envriomentalist, gay rights activist, feminist, and pro palestinian. I would also like to add if the NDP is against freedom of speech being used to incite hatred against gay's, why did'nt the NDP condemn the left wing nuts at Concordia who were creating hatred towards the jews, and spitting on jews.

Can't any New Democrats say that spitting on jews, and assaulting jews is wrong. At Concorida the students union created hatred against the jews, yet Svend Robinson was more than supportive of the same scum bags that spat on jews, and attacked jews.

http://www.alchemists.com/visual_alchemy/w...d_Robinson.html

How is it that every New Democrat thinks he is such a great guy when he sides with those that go into pizzaria's and kill children. He sided with Castro who tortured people, and he also tried to destroy the memory of those who died in Sept 11.

One question remains, why don't people grow a brain and throw him out of office.

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By the way those New Democrats that say that what happens in the bedroom between consenting adults is their own business are idiots. The reason why is that human rights commissions have forced small towns, and Edmonton to have gay pride parades that display leather clad men, and S&M. So what the left is trying to do is shove homosexuality down everybodies throats.

Your a goddamned liar, AF. Where have communities been forced by human right scommissions to hold Pride events? Put your money where your mouth is, junior. prove it.

Otherwise, stop wasting bandwith and take your pointless obsession with having things shoved down your throat elsewhere. :rolleyes:

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That would be at the peak of the New Zealand neoliberal "experiment" (1984-1988). Prior to these reforms, New Zealand was even more regulated than Canada. The austerity measures introduced to fight inflation involved massive economic "shock treatment", which included mass privatization and deregulation. Of course, the whole "experiment" was an abject failure and many of the reforms of that period are being reversed.

That's one of the dumber things you have said, BD. In fact, the socialist regime in NZ literally ran out of money. They had no choice but to deregulate. It took time, but eventually it was possible to put things back on track.

NZ is a very bad example for socialist/regulator types.

The quote below is from the Reserve Bank's web site. It's written specifically for children so I'm sure you'll be able to understand it.

RBNZ Web Site

New Zealand in the 1970s (see "Bottles and Bikes") and 1980s ("The Convertible") had very high inflation. The government tried to control inflation through the price and wage freeze, but this did not work.

Since 1989, the Reserve Bank has had the job of keeping inflation low. The Reserve Bank tries to keep increases in the Consumers Price Index between 0 and 3 percent.

The Reserve Bank has not always had the job of keeping inflation low. Before 1989, the Bank tried to help keep unemployment low, promote economic growth, and keep inflation low. However, the government came to realise that the Bank could not do all these things. They also recognised that the high inflation of the 1970s and 1980s had hurt New Zealanders. It was decided that the best thing the Reserve Bank could do was keep inflation low.

The Reserve Bank keeps inflation low because Parliament has decided that keeping inflation low contributes to helping the New Zealand economy to grow and helps to provide employment and development opportunities.

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Your a goddamned liar, AF. Where have communities been forced by human right scommissions to hold Pride events? Put your money where your mouth is, junior. prove it.

--> COURT ORDERS CITY TO STAGE PRIDE

The human-rights tribunal in the Canadian province of

British Columbia July 30 ordered the small city of

Terrace to proclaim and advertise Lesbian, Gay,

Bisexual and Transgender Pride Day.

The town's council had refused to do so. Terrace,

population 13,000, is 930 miles (1,500 km) north of

Vancouver.

The tribunal said the city council violated the

provincial human-rights code when it rejected

proclamation requests from the Rainbow B.C. Coalition

and the Rainbow Committee of Terrace.

<_<

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Mayor Bill Smith was also being sued by the gay lobby here in Edmonton for refusing to have a pride event. 

Wrong-o! Smith was threatened with a complaint to the Human Rights Commission for refusing to declare Pride Week (even as he gave city sanction to pretty much anyone else who asked). Pride events, such as the parade, had been going for some time regardless of the City's symbolic blessing.

Can you try to defend that Black Dog, or do you think everybody should be forced to watch naked men and women walking down main street clad in leather.

When was the last time someone held a gun to your head and made you take in a pride parade. If you don't like it, just don't go. Duh. :rolleyes:

The human-rights tribunal in the Canadian province of British Columbia July 30 ordered the small city of Terrace to proclaim and advertise Lesbian, Gay,

Bisexual and Transgender Pride Day.

That's one of the dumber things you have said, BD. In fact, the socialist regime in NZ literally ran out of money. They had no choice but to deregulate. It took time, but eventually it was possible to put things back on track.

NZ is a very bad example for socialist/regulator types.

The quote below is from the Reserve Bank's web site. It's written specifically for children so I'm sure you'll be able to understand it.

First of all, August, stick your condescension up your ass.

Second: New Zealand's experiment was a disaster. The debt ballooned, economic growth shuddered to a halt (actually, the economy shrank) and unemployment jumped from 4 per cent to nearly 20 per cent.

That's why so many "reforms" are being rolled back.

Due to a change of government in November 1999, resulting in the election of a Labour/Alliance Coalition, there has been a major reorientation of policy. This has included the repeal of a major deregulation of the labour market under which Individual contracts were promoted ahead of collective bargaining, and union rights were largely removed. A new Employment Relations Act primarily based on good faith collective bargaining went into effect on October 1, 2000. The government has also re-nationalised workers compensation, which was privatised in 1999 and introduced 12 weeks paid parental leave. Minimum wages have been increased each year since. The Government also increased pensions; reduced rents for state housing, and reduced interest payments on student loans.

In July 2002 a Labour-led Government was re-elected and are in a minority coalition government with the Progressive Coalition party which has 2 members of Parliament. The Green Party or United Future Party are needed on each occasion to support legislation and Budgets and have separate agreements with the Government to ensure this occurs. The Government has passed new Health and Safety legislation, a revised Holidays Act with improved payments for work on public holidays and the introduction of 4 weeks annual leave to apply from 2007. A new Bill, the Employment Relations Law Reform Bill was introduced in December 2003 and aims to strengthen collective bargaining. It also includes measures to protect workers in the case of the sale, transfer or contracting out of their employer’s business. Labour Party policy also includes commitments to regularly increase the minimum wage, upgrade paid parental leave to 14 weeks, extend to those who have had more than one employer in previous year, extend to self-employed, review the adequacy of redundancy law by establishing a Ministerial Advisory Group, introduce a minimum code of practice for state sector contractors, and also measures to offset the adverse effects of casualisation.

What none of you seem to get is that neoliberal economic policies are specifically designed to benefit a tiny number of people, while the resst suffer the consequences. They've been tried time and again. And every time, they fail.

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When was the last time someone held a gun to your head and made you take in a pride parade. If you don't like it, just don't go. Duh.

Have you ever been to a gay pride parade yourself BD, I mean its one thing to have a parade that is respectful of the public, but the ones I have seen on TV or in person were anything but. I was driving my car in downtown Victoria one day, only to be redirected to another street because of the procession. Not knowing why the road was closed off, I looked back and my view was greeted by three plump lesbians topless, with their breasts knocking against their knees and then directly behind them were some gay men wearing leather chaps that were crotchless. Weird, I thought public displays of indecency were prohibited, but I guess anything goes in the name of gay pride. Here is some advice to streakers who like to run onto the fields during sporting events, just say you are having a gay pride moment, no one can do anything to you then. I do not want any tax dollars supporting these events until they are cleaned up and not offensive to the public.

Lastly since you seem to be quite supportive of these events BD, why don't you and your family (if you have one), make a day of it, have a little picnic on the sidewalk where these parades go by. Then deal with the questions your children would have when they see naked men and women walking by and acting ridiculous. Tell me what would your answer be to those questions?

I would not have a problem with these parades adhering to the laws that the rest of us have to live by. Maybe this community of people should do some public relations work and realize that their actions are offensive to the non-homosexuals and therefore they are to a certain degree responsible for the backlash they face.

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The New Zealand Labour Party of 2004 has less socialist militancy, sparser Trade Union support and a broad agenda of centre-left co-operation with the Progressive Coalition while toying with notions of the Third Way and of Social Democracy. It remains by far New Zealand's largest electoral bloc, but under MMP electoral law seems less likely to govern alone than in coalition.

NZ Labour Party

Some 20 years later, it's not surprising that certain apparent "social" measures might be taken. They are a far cry from the Muldoon years though.

As to the Gay Pride debate, IMV, these should be for local jurisdictions to decide. Some towns like Santa Claus parades and some don't. What's the big deal?

And lastly:

First of all, August, stick your condescension up your ass.

Geez BD. You're not only a socialist. You're a frustrated socialist.

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