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What Should be an Example for Quebec


jbg

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I am posting from Gettysburg, Pennsylvania, and spent much of the last two days at the battle site. In the three-day Battle of Gettysburg, the bloodiest of the Civil War and its turning point there were over 61,000 killed, wounded and missing. The human and financial toll of that war - over 600,000 dead in a country whose population was about what Canada's is now, was staggering. Whole regions were devastated.

The war, however, took secession off the table in the U.S. The South is now one of our most uber-patriotic regions. The Civil War, along with the U.S. Revolutionary War and War of 1812, were the cauldrons that turned the U.S. into a united country. We still have our regional differences. But the bargaining starts and ends with one salient fact; no one is taking their marbles and going home.

The U.S. is not held to extortion or ransom by ethnic, racial, geographic or linguistic minorities. The lesson of not giving in to minority interests was costly; and worth it.

Edited by jbg
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I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. This isn't the United States and we don't have your history. This is a different place that was founded on different principles and ideals. The fact that this country has a linguistic dichotomy is something that cannot be denied. It's the way that the country was founded and it's the way that this country remains. We are simply different places.

All that said, I also have to take issue with your premise. There are many patriotic federalist Quebecers and as shown time and again in poll after poll, there is a consistent strong 60% support for Canada in Quebec. There is also a soft support of between 10 and 15% that shifts back and forth. There isn't really a problem with patriotism in this country, especially now.

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All that said, I also have to take issue with your premise. There are many patriotic federalist Quebecers and as shown time and again in poll after poll, there is a consistent strong 60% support for Canada in Quebec. There is also a soft support of between 10 and 15% that shifts back and forth. There isn't really a problem with patriotism in this country, especially now.
When you strip away the Anglophone and Allophone vote, the votes in the last two referenda are far more troubling.

Even worse are the cave-ins on formulas for equalization and other revenue distribution programs. Else why did some major contracts not get awardd to MB-based companies in favor of ones based in QC?

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..... There are many patriotic federalist Quebecers and as shown time and again in poll after poll, there is a consistent strong 60% support for Canada in Quebec. There is also a soft support of between 10 and 15% that shifts back and forth. There isn't really a problem with patriotism in this country, especially now.

Except for when there is not, like in 1995, which gave rise to the Clarity Act:

The referendum took place in Quebec on October 30, 1995, and the motion to decide whether Quebec should secede from Canada was defeated by a very narrow margin of: 50.58% "No" to 49.42% "Yes".

Krikey...that's close! ;)

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When you strip away the Anglophone and Allophone vote, the votes in the last two referenda are far more troubling.

The referendum was almost 15 years ago. Quebec is still part of Canada, and federalist parties are polling well. There is no appetite for separatism, and that attitude will only diminish with time as we put the Sponsorship Scandal further in the past. You're chasing ghosts.

Even worse are the cave-ins on formulas for equalization

Cave ins? Quebec has a weaker economy than Manitoba yet receives only half the equalization per capita.

Else why did some major contracts not get awarded to MB-based companies in favor of ones based in QC?

That's a long time ago and living in the past can be a dangerous and spiteful game.

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Except for when there is not, like in 1995

That doesn't have anything to do with the attitude of Quebecers overall. On top of that, most of them didn't even understand that they were voting for separatism, because the question said nothing about it. The 1995 referendum is not a predictor of anything. Satisfied people are less likely to show up to vote, and that's simply reality. There is no separatist threat, and certainly not since the passing of the clarity act.

Edited by Smallc
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That doesn't have anything to do with the attitude of Quebecers overall. On top of that, most of them didn't even understand that they were voting for separatism, because the question said nothing about it. The 1995 referendum is not a predictor of anything. Satisfied people are less likely to show up to vote, and that's simply reality. There is no separatist threat, and certainly not since the passing of the clarity act.

OK.......that makes a lot of sense.....having the Clarity Act means there is no threat.

So now there is a legal mechanism to separate..... :blink:

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The Clarity Act requires that conditions be met that are nearly impossible. The threat is almost zero. Quebec isn't going to separate.
But the fact that the threat is still hanging in the air and won't be met with an American Civil War response/Appomatox result means that separation is still a bargaining chip, given the potential for havoc that it could create. At least that's off the table in the U.S. Just ask the folks at Gettysburg, Manassas (site of the two Battles of Bull Run), or for that matter anyone between Atlanta and Savannah, Georgia why.

For that matter, ask the folks at Hiroshima and Nagasaki why Japan is a loyal ally of the United States.

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The Clarity Act requires that conditions be met that are nearly impossible. The threat is almost zero. Quebec isn't going to separate.
One thng your views have going against you; Jean Chretien is no Abe Lincoln.
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The U.S. is not held to extortion or ransom by ethnic, racial, geographic or linguistic minorities. The lesson of not giving in to minority interests was costly; and worth it.
I disagree.

How would you describe the US situation in Iraq or Afghanistan. More generally, how would you describe the US involvement with Japan or the Soviet Union?

On a piano keyboard, there are black keys and white keys. No key dominates. IOW, however you view the US in isolation, the US is still part of a larger world.

To make my idea more plain, there are basic principles but the US does not hold them all. Two good people often disagree. For example, Catholics view the world differently from Protestants and English-speaking people have different words to describe the world from French-speaking people.

Does this mean civil war? No. It means conflict and compromise. (IMV, like it or not, Obama is like a neophyte bilingual Canadian. He reminds me of a naive bilingual bureaucrat/MP arriving in Ottawa for the first time. On this point alone, I suspect Harper and Obama understand each other.)

But the fact that the threat is still hanging in the air and won't be met with an American Civil War response/Appomatox result means that separation is still a bargaining chip, given the potential for havoc that it could create.
Quebec independance is possible. But any civil war in Canada would be fought in newspaper headlines, or Internet forums.

Why? Quebecers are a civilized people. English Canadians could not hope to share a country with a better people than Quebecers, just like Americans could not hope to share a continent with better people than Canadians.

Edited by August1991
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Canadians are a civilized people, and Quebecers too.

...and at peace with matters unsettled?

I think that if English Canada voted by referendum to join America with a 50.1% verdict, many English Canadians would object but they would not use violence to obstruct the decision.

Am I wrong?

Different question than secession......Americans would have the final say....and we are violent.

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Americans would have the final say....and we are violent.
Whether Americans would have Canadians as fellow citizens is a separate question.

I merely wondered how English Canadians would react to a referendum in which 50.1% voted in favour of joining America.

-----

All things considered, I think English Canadians (just like Quebecers) are civilized people. Returning to the OP, and jbg, Canadians in general don't kill each other in civil wars or place bombs in public markets (the FLQ and Fenians are exceptions, quickly nipped). We argue in newspapers and in Internet forums, but no one dies.

As I say, we Canadians - French or English - argue but we are generally civilized.

I think Canada's civilization is based on Quebec's civilized nature just as America's civilization is baed on Canada's civilized nature. IOW, it is the minority that makes life civilized for the majority.

Edited by August1991
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Whether Americans would have Canadians as fellow citizens is a separate question.

I merely wondered how English Canadians would react to a referendum in which 50.1% voted in favour of joining America.

I think you have already answered the question.....non-violent resignation to their fate. Government knows best.

I think Canada's civilization is based on Quebec's civilized nature just as America's civilization is baed on Canada's civilized nature. IOW, it is the minority that makes life civilized for the majority.

Nah... America pretty much rejects Canada's civilized nature as too passive.....that's why we invented tasers.

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Canadians are a civilized people, and Quebecers too.

I think that if English Canada voted by referendum to join America with a 50.1% verdict, many English Canadians would object but they would not use violence to obstruct the decision.

Am I wrong?

In the God awful scenario in which that happens, the first thing that would happen is that they would probably use the precedent of the Clarity Act, ironically, to argue against implementation of anything based on the result.

I doubt Canada and the US could merge without lots and lots of violent protests in Canada. Unless perhaps Mexico were also joining in.

Edited by Remiel
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All things considered, I think English Canadians (just like Quebecers) are civilized people. Returning to the OP, and jbg, Canadians in general don't kill each other in civil wars or place bombs in public markets (the FLQ and Fenians are exceptions, quickly nipped). We argue in newspapers and in Internet forums, but no one dies.
The days of all out civil war are probably past us. However, a long period of IRA like violance is not out of the question.

The problem with referendum on complex issues is eveyone who votes makes assumptions about the terms. For example, many Quebequers voting yes in a referendum assume that they would retain their Canadian citizenship post seperation. Most English Canadians assume that and negotiated settlement would require that all Quebequers lose their citizenship. There is no middle ground on this point so how can it be resolved?

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All things considered, I think English Canadians (just like Quebecers) are civilized people. Returning to the OP, and jbg, Canadians in general don't kill each other in civil wars or place bombs in public markets (the FLQ and Fenians are exceptions, quickly nipped). We argue in newspapers and in Internet forums, but no one dies.

As I say, we Canadians - French or English - argue but we are generally civilized.

I think Canada's civilization is based on Quebec's civilized nature just as America's civilization is baed on Canada's civilized nature. IOW, it is the minority that makes life civilized for the majority.

Given some examples of the values of some (not all!) new Canadians discovered and charged for plotting to set off bombs or behead the Prime Minister here in their new country, can we take it for granted that we will ALWAYS be so non-violent?

Up till now, the number of 'wingnuts' has been next to 'mice nuts'. We have already seen a few examples that show us that a few new immigrants have different values. This of course is only a tiny percentage (at the moment) but it only takes a few to commit major violence.

I just think that while we're falling all over ourselves patting each other on the back in this thread for being so 'Canadian' we don't act like ostriches. The first response to any problem in Canada always seems to deny it exists rather than deal with it.

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All that said, I also have to take issue with your premise. There are many patriotic federalist Quebecers and as shown time and again in poll after poll, there is a consistent strong 60% support for Canada in Quebec. There is also a soft support of between 10 and 15% that shifts back and forth. There isn't really a problem with patriotism in this country, especially now.

There is very little love of Canada among Quebec Francophones. Their support for Canada is tied directly to our financial support to them. As I've said previously, if a huge oil strike was found in Quebec the province would separate within a year, and the vote to leave would be overwhelming.

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