Good Integration

[Bonam]

How do you know I'm neither a woman nor a person of colour? Did you just make a bigoted assumption?

He assumes that only an evil white male racist could possibly see through the flaws of affirmative action policies.

[tango]

An assertion without any evidence.

I would contend that a normal individual who has no particular political affiliations or opinions on racial issues would become quite upset if they find out that they got rejected for a job simply because the company had to hire someone of a different skin color to fill a quota. It is quite possible that such an individual may grow resentful, if they are intelligent their resentment would be against the racist policy of affirmative action, if they are less intelligent the resentment would be targeted at members of other races whom affirmative action is aimed to "help". This seems to me inescapable, it is human nature.

If all our policies were "race blind" rather than based on discrimination, people like lictor would have no ammunition, nothing to point to and say that whites are "second class citizens". But as it is, they do, and they have an ever growing audience.

"If if if"

Show me the data.

[Bonam]

"If if if"

Show me the data.

You show no data, you just make baseless statements. I don't show data either, I don't know if such data even exists, but at least I make a reasoned argument as to what I believe the effects might be, to support my conclusions. You fail to do even that. Does the scenario I paint seem so unrealistic to you? Which part of it do you think couldn't happen? It is in fact happening on a massive scale in North America. There are workers by the thousands or perhaps millions beginning to grow resentful of affirmative action policies. You need only pay attention to news from the US to see that this is the case.

[tango]

It is not of importance that one kid has more juice.

It is to them, so parents have to do this all the time, because they poured it wrong.

but don't let the truth interfere with your spinning.

[Bonam]

It is not of importance that one kid has more juice.

It is to them, so parents have to do this all the time, because they poured it wrong.

Interesting. So tell me, who are the "parents" in your analogy as it relates back to the real world, and what is this "juice" that they poured wrong?

[tango]

You show no data, you just make baseless statements. I don't show data either, I don't know if such data even exists, but at least I make a reasoned argument as to what I believe the effects might be, to support my conclusions. You fail to do even that. Does the scenario I paint seem so unrealistic to you? Which part of it do you think couldn't happen? It is in fact happening on a massive scale in North America. There are workers by the thousands or perhaps millions beginning to grow resentful of affirmative action policies. You need only pay attention to news from the US to see that this is the case.

After all these years of whining that it 'might happen if' you can't show evidence that there is even a problem?

Hypothetical whinging is such a waste of time and energy.

Whine about something that is a real problem, eh?

You know ... like world peace or something.

[g_bambino]

It is to them, so parents have to do this all the time, because they poured it wrong.

Wow; you missed the point. Entirely.

I guess by your (il)logic, if you save more money than I, I'm entitled to take from you half of the difference, so that we have equal amounts. Thanks; I got paid by you for doing squat!

[Bonam]

After all these years of whining that it 'might happen if' you can't show evidence that there is even a problem?

Do you deny that there is one? Racial tensions should long since have been buried and forgotten in the West, but our policies have kept them going.

Hypothetical whinging is such a waste of time and energy.

I have plenty of both or I wouldn't be wasting either on these forums. Thanks for your concern though.

Whine about something that is a real problem, eh?

You know ... like world peace or something.

Not my problem.

[Argus]

Ya, it's a funny thing ... like when one kid has more juice, and you have to equalize the amounts.

One loses one gains, then equity is restored.

Get over it. You're outnumbered by women and people of colour, and we make the rules now.

The thing is, the kid didn't make his juice, it was provided to him, so taking some away to 'equalize" with the other kids is not a problem.

The problem comes when the kid grew the orances himself, picked them, prepared the juice, and then has some of it taken away by some pompous ass who says it's not fair that the other kid - who was too lazy to work as hard - didn't have as good a crop and so doesn't have as much to drink.

Welfare is a very humanitarian idea to provide for those unable to provide for themselves. Unfortunately, all too many of the people on it are just lazy, drug-addicted or alcholics being indulged by pompous ass social engineer types.

[Argus]

No, he expressed a grotesquely bigoted sentiment and I responded appropriately.

I won't tolerate it, and I don't let that pass.

If you see those viewpoints as being of equal moral credibility, you're the one with the problem.

You don't get to tolerate or not tolerate. That's what freedom of speech is about.

Edited August 27, 2009 by Argus

[monkeyman]

The thing is, the kid didn't make his juice, it was provided to him, so taking some away to 'equalize" with the other kids is not a problem.

The problem comes when the kid grew the orances himself, picked them, prepared the juice, and then has some of it taken away by some pompous ass who says it's not fair that the other kid - who was too lazy to work as hard - didn't have as good a crop and so doesn't have as much to drink.

Welfare is a very humanitarian idea to provide for those unable to provide for themselves. Unfortunately, all too many of the people on it are just lazy, drug-addicted or alcholics being indulged by pompous ass social engineer types.

You think that because you're an ethnic minority you're not Canadian????? You must think like a bunch of fools that Obama isn't American!

[Argus]

Again, this is something you read in papers, watch on tv. The fact is that the people who is discriminated in Canada when comes to get a job are ETHNIC MINORITIES, that's a FACT.

You have evidence to support this so-called FACT? No, I didn't think so.

As someone who has looked over an awful lot of resumes, and interviewed a lot of potential employees, I can tell you that the primary reason why ethnic minorities fare worse than whites is lack of applicable skills, especially poor communications skills. This is especially, notoriously the case among immigrants, and most "ethnic minorities" are immigrants.

[Argus]

We all saw that when the girl from Kenya MRS SOHAD was kep there for many months and the Canadian government didn't do anything to release her within the first 3 months how she was a FIRST CLASS CITIZEN......

What do you say about that ?

That it probably wouldn't have happened to someone who understood how things worked, and would simply have gone over the head of the people in Kenya to her MP back home. Canadians know that you only argue with obstinate idiots for so long and then you go over their head.

[Argus]

You think that because you're an ethnic minority you're not Canadian????? You must think like a bunch of fools that Obama isn't American!

What are you blathering about? The above had nothing whatsoever to do with ethnics or immigrants.

Hey, over in the far field, that goat is eating something. Best go find out what it is.

[Remiel]

Do you deny that there is one? Racial tensions should long since have been buried and forgotten in the West, but our policies have kept them going.

Come on, Bonam. Regardless of what you think about the effects of the policies, it would be crazy to think that without the policies there would be no racial tension today.

[Bonam]

Come on, Bonam. Regardless of what you think about the effects of the policies, it would be crazy to think that without the policies there would be no racial tension today.

I think the tensions could have been much lower. Our policies deliberately make a point of identifying people as parts of certain ethnic or racial groups. If we were all just Canadians, and all received exactly the same rights and privileges and treatment, there would be no source of tensions, and they would disappear over time. Perhaps not completely gone yet, but on their way out. But as it is, our institutionalized racism prevents any healing.

Edited August 27, 2009 by Bonam

[Remiel]

I think the tensions could have been much lower. Our policies deliberately make a point of identifying people as parts of certain ethnic or racial groups. If we were all just Canadians, and all received exactly the same rights and privileges and treatment, there would be no source of tensions, and they would disappear over time. Perhaps not completely gone yet, but on their way out. But as it is, our institutionalized racism prevents any healing.

There is more to the problem than "institutionalized racism". As long as "socialized 'otherness'" is strong, there will be a problem. As long as people commonly identify others as "immigrants" then race or ethnicity will continue to be emphasized for those people.

[Bonam]

There is more to the problem than "institutionalized racism". As long as "socialized 'otherness'" is strong, there will be a problem. As long as people commonly identify others as "immigrants" then race or ethnicity will continue to be emphasized for those people.

Right, and the fact that we make them tick off boxes on forms that say "visible minority" and that it has such an impact on how they are treated by our institutions only contributes to the feeling of "otherness" and the identification as something other than "just a Canadian" that they feel. People identify as immigrants those who act in a poorly integrated manner.

Many of my friends are Asian, but I hardly ever pause to think of them in those terms, they are just Canadians, same as me. They act pretty much as one would expect of Canadians in general, speak English without even an accent, etc.

It's when you come across someone that is whining about racism, or trying to shove some ancient guilt down your throat, or protesting on the streets regarding some conflict in their homeland, or demanding that Canadian institutions be altered to conform with their culture or religion, that one might focus on the fact that they are "other" than oneself. If we did not constantly encourage these kinds of activities, they would happen less, and the perception of "otherness" would be reduced, both in the way that these new immigrants view themselves and in the way that long-time Canadians view these immigrants.

Edited August 27, 2009 by Bonam

[Argus]

Come on, Bonam. Regardless of what you think about the effects of the policies, it would be crazy to think that without the policies there would be no racial tension today.

Perhaps, but is there ANY evidence whatsoever that such policies have any value today?

[Remiel]

Right, and the fact that we make them tick off boxes on forms that say "visible minority" and that it has such an impact on how they are treated by our institutions only contributes to the feeling of "otherness" and the identification as something other than "just a Canadian" that they feel. People identify as immigrants those who act in a poorly integrated manner.

Many of my friends are Asian, but I hardly ever pause to think of them in those terms, they are just Canadians, same as me. They act pretty much as one would expect of Canadians in general, speak English without even an accent, etc.

It's when you come across someone that is whining about racism, or trying to shove some ancient guilt down your throat, or protesting on the streets regarding some conflict in their homeland, or demanding that Canadian institutions be altered to conform with their culture or religion, that one might focus on the fact that they are "other" than oneself. If we did not constantly encourage these kinds of activities, they would happen less, and the perception of "otherness" would be reduced, both in the way that these new immigrants view themselves and in the way that long-time Canadians view these immigrants.

Unfortunately, it is not nearly as simple as that, I think. Why should it be that a Canadian woman born in the Congo protesting the violent conflict there be thought of as "other" for their protest while a woman born in Canada but of European descent is thought of just as Canadian for doing the exact same activity? Also, how do you really determine whether a proposed change to a law or institution is being sponsored by someone who does not like the Canadian system at all and someone who thinks that the change could be more or less a natural evolution? I mean, I get that there are problems, but I sincerely doubt that "do nothing" is a solution.

[Remiel]

Perhaps, but is there ANY evidence whatsoever that such policies have any value today?

What would you call evidence, Argus? There is clearly evidence for the premise, " Children are significantly affected in their careers by the positions of their parents. " The children of lawyers are more likely to be lawyers, the children on doctors are more likely to be doctors, the children on poor unskilled labourers are more likely to be poor unskilled labourers and all that. (And not merely for genetic reasons I might add.)

The rest is logic (which may be questioned of course). There are a disproportionate number of Europeans in professional and influential fields; therefore, if we want them to become more diverse in a generation or two as opposed to a century or three, we pull out the grease, get others into there, and down the road a meritocracy with equal opportunity will come to be, instead of a meritocracy of unequal opportunity (because, of course, the problem with a meritocracy of unequal opportunity is that you are getting the best people available for the job, not the best people possible).

Edited August 27, 2009 by Remiel

[lictor616]

I suppose you would be the expert on perversion and capitulation as you cannot seem to avoid speaking about "race" out of one side of your mouth and "individuals" out of the other while pretending that there is no contradiction in what you say.

Race wouldn't matter all that much if we treated everyone as individuals. But we have a policy of multiculturalism which forces us to consider people on such things as sexual orientation and race... In canada, we don't see individuals, we see races, and minority statuses, and "redistribute" bonbons accordingly. What's that, you're black AND gay? wow here's a job and an extra lolli for you.

The answer has to be racial blindness, that's the only way to truly have an egalitarian society (ie a society that TREATS everyone equally). But the problem is that we also understand that certain races don't perform the same way... not giving artificial boosts to blacks for instance would result in a situation where there would be even fewer of them getting admitted to universities and workplaces.

What liberals are insanely doing is "deciding" that blacks are 100% equal and use affirmative action to help along with believing the fantasy.

There is no contradiction in what I say... some individual blacks are extremely intelligent... some whites shiftless, incompetent and stupid....we don't need to do anything but treat everyone as complete equals.. then the truth will come out.... THAT'S THE ONLY WAY to have a free and just society.

Edited August 27, 2009 by lictor616

[lictor616]

Only among those who already indulge.

meaning only people who don,t hate themselves or white people, or have been taught to be a victim of an "oppression" that exist only in their enfevered imaginations and aren't trained red guards would-be commissars of soviet russia...

[lictor616]

It is not of importance that one kid has more juice.

It is to them, so parents have to do this all the time, because they poured it wrong.

but don't let the truth interfere with your spinning.

its a terrible analogy... but

actually it would be like pouring a kid MORE JUICE, because the other kid's great great great great great etc 250 year old grandpa was poured LESS one time...

[Hydraboss]

What would you call evidence, Argus? There is clearly evidence for the premise, " Children are significantly affected in their careers by the positions of their parents. " The children of lawyers are more likely to be lawyers, the children on doctors are more likely to be doctors, the children on poor unskilled labourers are more likely to be poor unskilled labourers and all that. (And not merely for genetic reasons I might add.)

The rest is logic (which may be questioned of course). There are a disproportionate number of Europeans in professional and influential fields; therefore, if we want them to become more diverse in a generation or two as opposed to a century or three, we pull out the grease, get others into there, and down the road a meritocracy with equal opportunity will come to be, instead of a meritocracy of unequal opportunity (because, of course, the problem with a meritocracy of unequal opportunity is that you are getting the best people available for the job, not the best people possible).

Has anyone ever asked WHY we HAVE to have diversity? What is so damn important that a bank or a grocery store or a government building has a racial formula? (Add two parts white, two black, one hispanic and 3/4 muslim...)

At 6' 1" (Sorry, no metric. I speak English.), I am too short to play in the NBA. By your reasoning, I should be chosen over a 7' 1" black player with amazing skills just because there are already 10 or 11 other blacks on the team. Makes no difference that I can't play worth a damn (or jump). Does it matter to you that black players dominate the sport because THEY CAN PLAY? If there were equal numbers of white and black players already on the team and they needed one more, who should they pick? The white guy? The black guy? Should they advertise for an asian guy to be diverse?

This is simply political correctness running away with common sense.