Good Integration

[Hydraboss]

Perhaps then either you have not noticed some of the same comments I have, or you have different criteria for vulgar. Also, if you looked closer at this very thread you would notice he is not above personal attacks.

It is precisely because of this vulgarity that I lost interest in "playing the ball".

Indirect vulgarity is in the eye of the beholder. To a pro-lifer, any talk of abortion is vulgar. While it is very possible, in fact likely, that I have missed a lot of his comments I have read through this entire thread and do not see what you see. His point of view may be offensive to you and others (sometimes me as well), but I challenge you to quote anything he has posted that is outright vulgar by any definition.

If the criteria is so lax, then there are a ton of us on the board that fit the description. I find any talk of federal Liberals being honest to be distasteful at least; horrific most often. People who state that Omar Kadhr was an innocent child and should be brought to Canada and set free make my skin crawl. The belief that Kwebek is an equal part of Canada makes me want to puke. Vulgar I say.

But that's just me. Put him on "ignore" if you wish, but advising others to do so because of what you think is childish.

[Melanie_]

There are many (impossible to list here for lack of concision), but race has an huge impact on medical treatment... every doctor racially profiles... some types of heart medication for instance are actually racially sensitive: BiDil is such a drug which works almost exclusively on african americans. http://www.bidil.com/

We also know that the gene microcephalin (MCPH1) which is responsible for brain development differs again along racial lines.

http://www.wired.com/medtech/health/magazi...4/ff_brainatlas, craniometry (although rarely talked about) does display variations on skull shapes and the like... and we're all aware (although many of us refuse to admit it) that certainly types and degrees of intelligence do seem to follow geographical racial lines. Asian children develop their cognitive and motor development at different rates... blacks learn to be mobile at younger ages and we know that they have cranial sutures which close "earlier"... all of this is undisputed and widely known.

Asians are vulnerable to different types of cerebral ailments as well..

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=A...ba82f47be35498c

i mean EVERYTHING is genetic... Its obviously true that "nurture is very important" but really without "genes" nurture is useless. A person with downs is a genetic congenital affliction its determined by GENES not nurture...

In "Genetic Structure, Self-Identified Race/Ethnicity, and Confounding in Case-Control Association Studies", Hua Tang and a large number of other scientists recruited 3,636 subjects from 12 different locations in the U.S. and 3 in Taiwan who all identified themselves as black, white, Hispanic, or Asian. Tang et al. analyzed these subjects at 326 genetic markers. you should read this journal to shed some light on your son's self identity quandary.

Did you read the articles you quoted here? There is nothing in the Brain Atlas article that remotely supports your position, and the article about "Asians being vulnerable to different types of cerebral ailments" is really about a common genetic disorder that is found in all populations, but this particular study was carried out on children of Asian descent. You'll need to do much better than this if your goal is to prove that one ethnic group is more intelligent than another.

[Remiel]

oh for the love of god! I know exactly how immunization works....

Go ahead and inject yourself with some aids contaminated blood if you want to pursue your inane argument.

My argument was that your analagoy fails because sometimes the sickness is part of the cure. Not with AIDS, perhaps, but with many other diseases.

[lictor616]

My argument was that your analagoy fails because sometimes the sickness is part of the cure. Not with AIDS, perhaps, but with many other diseases.

actually, your analogy fails, because it isn't the sickness that makes one HEALTHY but the immune system which may be stimulated by sickness..and either way: there is cholera and old diseases we though we eradicated are surfacing up again as different strains...

but thank you for your frankness in admitting that current anti-white racism is good and justified since you seem to believe the answer to racism is "racism"...

Maybe we can make learning and writing illegal in class ... that way illiteracy rates will drop...

oh btw... you realize that you can no longer morally deplore racism (as you are an advocate for it) ... that means no more calling other people racist... since that's exactly what you are.. welcome racist!

[lictor616]

Did you read the articles you quoted here? There is nothing in the Brain Atlas article that remotely supports your position, and the article about "Asians being vulnerable to different types of cerebral ailments" is really about a common genetic disorder that is found in all populations, but this particular study was carried out on children of Asian descent. You'll need to do much better than this if your goal is to prove that one ethnic group is more intelligent than another.

no I quoted from it .. it certainly does... BiDil is designed for specific races... BLACKS... are you disputing this?

and as far as asians being vulnerable ... why are the researchers specifically interested in the ASIAN component to it, if as you say races are figments of the imagination?

All races are vulnerable to sickle cell anemia.. but blacks are 80% of the cases... you don't think that's relevant and proof of some genetic predisposition to it? well I envy you certainty...

Oh and did you know that testing consistently shows that Asians score higher then whites in controlled tests?

I guess that however I cut it... no amount of data will convince you... might as well be talking about evolution with a Christian fundamentalist.

[Melanie_]

no I quoted from it .. it certainly does... BiDil is designed for specific races... BLACKS... are you disputing this?

and as far as asians being vulnerable ... why are the researchers specifically interested in the ASIAN component to it, if as you say races are figments of the imagination?

All races are vulnerable to sickle cell anemia.. but blacks are 80% of the cases... you don't think that's relevant and proof of some genetic predisposition to it? well I envy you certainty...

Oh and did you know that testing consistently shows that Asians score higher then whites in controlled tests?

I guess that however I cut it... no amount of data will convince you... might as well be talking about evolution with a Christian fundamentalist.

You didn't quote from the Brain Atlas article. BiDil looks more like marketing than medicine, but anyway... And as to why the study was done on Asian children, it doesn't say in the article you've quoted, so you are making an assumption that this particular condition is more prevalent in that group. A quick Google search doesn't show any stronger connection of this particular condition to Asians.

But despite your faulty citations, I haven't been arguing with you about whether or not there are physical differences dependent upon genetics. I certainly don't dispute that genetics are part of a person's physical make-up, but I don't see what that has to do with this thread. What specific point are you trying to make here, and what does it have to do with integration?

[Remiel]

oh btw... you realize that you can no longer morally deplore racism (as you are an advocate for it) ... that means no more calling other people racist... since that's exactly what you are.. welcome racist!

I take the view that there is no one completely free of racism. The difference is between racists and Racists. I (and pretty much everybody) am the former. You, I am afraid, are the latter.

[lictor616]

You didn't quote from the Brain Atlas article. BiDil looks more like marketing than medicine, but anyway... And as to why the study was done on Asian children, it doesn't say in the article you've quoted, so you are making an assumption that this particular condition is more prevalent in that group. A quick Google search doesn't show any stronger connection of this particular condition to Asians.

But despite your faulty citations, I haven't been arguing with you about whether or not there are physical differences dependent upon genetics. I certainly don't dispute that genetics are part of a person's physical make-up, but I don't see what that has to do with this thread. What specific point are you trying to make here, and what does it have to do with integration?

well wait a minute: I quoted the brain atlas to show the genetic correlation between mental faculties and GENES...

My citations are specifically RACE BASED... I don't know how you could twist your mind around how a study conducted ON asians, to study the different effects on a specific indentifiable racial group is somehow proof that there is not difference in racial reactions to a specific condition.

and you asked that question anyway...

Perhaps the onus should be placed on you(or likeminded individuals) to explain how IQ difference between Asians, Nordics, and African Americans could NOT affect the Western world in the future. I'm not saying that certain races are completely unnassimilable, nor am I saying that pro-diversity policies are necessarily bad. I do wonder, however, why nobody ever even is allowed to consider these issues openly.

[lictor616]

I take the view that there is no one completely free of racism. The difference is between racists and Racists. I (and pretty much everybody) am the former. You, I am afraid, are the latter.

explain the differences if you please between Racist and "racist"

if one is anti-white... you're "racist" i presume... and you're A -ok

but if you're pro equal treatment in admissions and hiring ... etc then you're a dastardly and repulsive reptilian like "Racist" right?

this would be funny if it weren't so insulting to everybody's intelligence.

[Remiel]

explain the differences if you please between Racist and "racist"

if one is anti-white... you're "racist" i presume... and you're A -ok

The implication on your part that I am some sort of anti-white "race traitor" is a huge assumption.

But, in short, you might say that a Racist tends to be someone who preaches the superiority of some races, or seems to have a vendetta against some race, or a hatred for some race.

Edited August 26, 2009 by Remiel

[Melanie_]

well wait a minute: I quoted the brain atlas to show the genetic correlation between mental faculties and GENES...

My citations are specifically RACE BASED... I don't know how you could twist your mind around how a study conducted ON asians, to study the different effects on a specific indentifiable racial group is somehow proof that there is not difference in racial reactions to a specific condition.

and you asked that question anyway...

Perhaps the onus should be placed on you(or likeminded individuals) to explain how IQ difference between Asians, Nordics, and African Americans could NOT affect the Western world in the future. I'm not saying that certain races are completely unnassimilable, nor am I saying that pro-diversity policies are necessarily bad. I do wonder, however, why nobody ever even is allowed to consider these issues openly.

Embedding the link in the statements you've made here implies that the article supports the statements. It does not. There is nothing in this article to remotely support what you've said. I doubt anyone needs to be told that there is a connection between brains and genetic predispositions, but the article certainly doesn't link either to race.

We also know that the gene microcephalin (MCPH1) which is responsible for brain development differs again along racial lines.

http://www.wired.com/medtech/health/magazi...4/ff_brainatlas, craniometry (although rarely talked about) does display variations on skull shapes and the like... and we're all aware (although many of us refuse to admit it) that certainly types and degrees of intelligence do seem to follow geographical racial lines. Asian children develop their cognitive and motor development at different rates... blacks learn to be mobile at younger ages and we know that they have cranial sutures which close "earlier"... all of this is undisputed and widely known.

The article on children with the amino acid deficiency does not say anything about race, other than that the children studied were all of Asian descent. And the whole thing is a red herring, because the condition exists across all racial groups.

As for IQ differences, this is a field of huge controversy and speculation. Traditional IQ tests were heavily biased, and as far as I know there still is no clear way to objectively measure intelligence. I'm willing to read any supporting evidence you have that there are objective, quantifiable differences in intelligence that are linked specifically to race, though. (But not until tomorrow. I'm off to bed now.)

Edited August 26, 2009 by Melanie_

[lictor616]

The implication on your part that I am some sort of anti-white "race traitor" is a huge assumption.

i don,t see that it is... you have no compunction for racial advocacy for NON WHITES... but when it comes to affirmative action and other anti-white institutional racism... you encourage...

You have to admit its pretty much staring us in the face here... you support things which dispossess and injure whites as a group, and defend other people's racial group interests...

that's the reality of you... not an "assumption".

[tango]

I mean its very maddening for me to say something like: "Look, the government enforces racial quotas with its program of affirmative action and preferential treatment of minorities... here's the evidence "exhibit A: the charter of rights and freedoms describing the right to institutional racism, and exhibit B: accounts of workplaces admitting they hire ONLY minorities"

psst! lictor!

Those workplaces hire ONLY minorities for bu$iness rea$ons.

It has absolutely nothing to do with government 'enforcing' "racial quotas":

The government brings in whomever the business community wants.

Can you give me an example that says different?

It's always a bit embarrassing (for you) when you whine about being discriminated against. I mean, it is true that some white men of limited ability/persistence have less employment satisfaction than in previous generations, but hey!

That's the merit system.

Afterall, the pie is only so big.

I've heard it said "You just don't get really good nurses like we used to have!"

The reply was "That's because they're all doctors now."

Too true.

And for you and some others ... too bad so sad.

Here's a quarter ...

Edited August 26, 2009 by tango

[Remiel]

i don,t see that it is... you have no compunction for racial advocacy for NON WHITES... but when it comes to affirmative action and other anti-white institutional racism... you encourage...

You have to admit its pretty much staring us in the face here... you support things which dispossess and injure whites as a group, and defend other people's racial group interests...

that's the reality of you... not an "assumption".

Or maybe I view affirmative action as an injustice that is necessary in order to correct other structural injustices in our system introduced by past racism and sexism.

But, here is the thing, lictor. Your evidence against me is all coloured by the fact that we live in a country dominated by Europeans. The reasons for my support of affirmative action would not prevent me from supporting it in a country dominated by Africans with a disadvantaged European minority, where it would be to help the Europeans.

I suppose affirmative action makes me a male-traitor too, by your account?

[lictor616]

psst! lictor!

Those workplaces hire ONLY minorities for bu$iness rea$ons.

It has absolutely nothing to do with government 'enforcing' "racial quotas":

um yeah sure... just look at the Texaco fiasco , in which a few employees in a private conversation said that they don't like "black jelly beans" in the workforce.... and texaco had to fork over 567 million dollars in punitive damages for WORDS, in a private conversation.

So yes employers do it for business.. if ever you're not "diverse enough" you can be hit with government penalties, subject to audits, investigation, accusations which can cost you a lot of cash and be sued...

much better to just go along with the act then to face the catastrophic consequences (not to mention BAD BAD publicity)

once againwhat you say has no relationship with reality. at the bank of montreal where I used to work, there used to be a huge sign in the lobby that said: "we hire diversity before anything!"... the U of T has a policy of selecting diversity at the "expense of expertise".

I could go on and on lifting more examples of this kind of lunacy.

[tango]

LICTOR616 ... and we're all aware (although many of us refuse to admit it) that certainly types and degrees of intelligence do seem to follow geographical racial lines.

MELANIE

The article on children with the amino acid deficiency does not say anything about race, other than that the children studied were all of Asian descent. And the whole thing is a red herring, because the condition exists across all racial groups.

As for IQ differences, this is a field of huge controversy and speculation. Traditional IQ tests were heavily biased, and as far as I know there still is no clear way to objectively measure intelligence. I'm willing to read any supporting evidence you have that there are objective, quantifiable differences in intelligence that are linked specifically to race, though. (But not until tomorrow. I'm off to bed now.)

Ya, he won't find any "objective quantifiable" evidence that can stand up.

DEGREES OF INTELLIGENCE - NO. There is no evidence of cultural/racial differences in degrees of "intelligence" overall (on average). Intelligence tests are language/cultural/environment bound, so you can't compare across languages/cultures -

Can't give us all the same test.

Even in assessing school achievement there are language/cultural challenges: Math problems, for example, are culturally bound. English ones are not relevant for Francophone and First Nations students. Even in English, rural contexts are different than city ones.

There is no such thing as a "culture fair test".

TYPES OF INTELLIGENCE - YES. There are cultural differences, but it often has to do with acculturation as well as genetics. The range of abilities is the same, and we all possess all of the intelligences. But some Peoples are more specialized for some intelligences.

Multiple Intelligences, Culture and Equitable Learning.

by Judith C. Reiff

http://www.questia.com/googleScholar.qst;j...ocId=5002242396

"Knowing that a relationship exists between cultures and education is a prerequisite to effective teaching, but continuing to teach with styles and strategies appropriate only for middle-class Anglo learners fails to meet the needs of culturally diverse children and adolescents" (Baruth & Manning, 1992, p. 332).

Instruction and assessment strategies that promote educational equity should reflect research on how multiple intelligences, as well as cultural backgrounds, affect young adolescents' learning. Educators often expect all learners to assimilate middle-class, Anglo American perspectives. This "culturally assaultive" perspective can adversely affect young adolescents' development, academic achievement and overall school progress. Educators can promote educational equity practices by addressing both students' multiple intelligences and cultural influences on learning.

Easier said than done.

IE, Our Eurocentric education system doesn't adequately address all intelligences, only its own specializations - linguistic/logic/sequential/mathematical, but not visual/spatial/holistic/kinesthetic.

Point being ... two people seeing the same movie will perceive it somewhat differently, depending on personal characteristics which may be genetic or environmental. There are individual differences ... vive les differences! ... a boring world it would be without them ... and some people have differences in different ways than others and sometimes it's genetically/culturally bound. WhoopdeToot!

'Equal' does not mean 'same'.

And different does not mean "by degrees".

I wear a big red shirt you wear a small black one.

Which is 'better'?

Depends who's choosing and for what.

lictor

Perhaps the onus should be placed on you (or likeminded individuals) to explain how IQ difference between Asians, Nordics, and African Americans could NOT affect the Western world in the future. I'm not saying that certain races are completely unassimilable, nor am I saying that pro-diversity policies are necessarily bad. I do wonder, however, why nobody ever even is allowed to consider these issues openly.

Glad to oblige!

I certainly have more common culture with other Canadians, regardless of race, than I do with my race.

Sh*t, mon! Shoot da puck, eh! It's beer time!

Edited August 26, 2009 by tango

[lictor616]

Or maybe I view affirmative action as an injustice that is necessary in order to correct other structural injustices in our system introduced by past racism and sexism.

But, here is the thing, lictor. Your evidence against me is all coloured by the fact that we live in a country dominated by Europeans. The reasons for my support of affirmative action would not prevent me from supporting it in a country dominated by Africans with a disadvantaged European minority, where it would be to help the Europeans.

I suppose affirmative action makes me a male-traitor too, by your account?

HAHAHa ! i'm sure you're protesting in front of the South African embassy every month to get white Afrikaners in SA some affirmative action... right right... that's just plain barefaced brazen lies.

again why is racism the answer to racism... can anyone explain why an eye for an eye is somehow moral in this instance?

And excuse me "past racism" just plainly does not cut the mustard... how is paying blacks a 10% raise for example going to atone for slavery taht happend centuries ago? How is giving preferential hiring to Muslims say going to avoid the breeding of racism in our society? Why do we whites need to pay for the collective "sins" of our race, and yet are not permitted to see ourselves as a seperate race under penalty of "racist" accusations... and subsequent job loss, law suits etc??

why is it wise to assume that by treating every single minority as a victim (whether or not he really is) of his race and ethnicity INSTEAD of a free individual is somehow congruous with a democratic egalitarian society?

How insulting it is to assume that everyone with "tanned skin" as you weirdly say is "victim" who needs an artificial boost to make something of himself? This is not only immoral.. but DISGUSTING BEHAVIOR and actually racist itself.

Many immigrants are VASTLY more capable then many whites in certain areas... Indians are adepts at computer wizardry... asians are stupendous analytical minds .... who make excellent professionals... and i've met quite a few who are actually quite incensed at affirmative action, and are worried about how it can breed resentment for them (and rightly so)

a country dominated by europeans? really? what country is this? Where's the European Canadian Human rights tribunal? the Combined White Appeal maybe? The Anti Defamtion League of White people? How about the Association for the Advancement of White People? the White College fund? name me one channel that is resisting diversity or dominated by whites! JUST ONE. you won't be able to.

Euro-Canadians have many LESS privileges then minorities- which makes them i,m sorry to say SECOND CLASS citizens... not sure how "dominating we are"if we declare ourselves as loathsome inferiors.

Ours is a country where European Heritage Week is ILLEGAL http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/1999/09/29/..._nb2990929.html

Ours is a nation where Sikhs are allowed to be covered by construction workers unions and insurances DESPITE their refusal to wear construction helmets... ours is a world of double standards and repression of anything European (shakespear is now deemed too eurocentric for majors in ENGLISH LIT believe it or not!)... how you could say that this is a Euro dominated country... i'd have to say that you,re having a really good laugh right now.

What you propose is a perversion of tolerance and a capitulation in the face of ignominious injustice, and for that I cannot respect you.

[Griz]

Just create the Federal Department of Caucasian Affairs and write a new act called the Caucasian Act? I've said all along if natives have it so good, then why don't those in power just make it that way for everyone else? Let's see: poverty, band style governance, hire indian lawyers and consultants to suck up the 7 billion dollar budget. Then lie through the media and make it look as the caucasians have it good on all those caucasian reservations etc etc Meanwhile the indian will laugh all the way yo the bank

HAHAHa ! i'm sure you're protesting in front of the South African embassy every month to get white Afrikaners in SA some affirmative action... right right... that's just plain barefaced brazen lies.

again why is racism the answer to racism... can anyone explain why an eye for an eye is somehow moral in this instance?

And excuse me "past racism" just plainly does not cut the mustard... how is paying blacks a 10% raise for example going to atone for slavery taht happend centuries ago? How is giving preferential hiring to Muslims say going to avoid the breeding of racism in our society? Why do we whites need to pay for the collective "sins" of our race, and yet are not permitted to see ourselves as a seperate race under penalty of "racist" accusations... and subsequent job loss, law suits etc??

why is it wise to assume that by treating every single minority as a victim (whether or not he really is) of his race and ethnicity INSTEAD of a free individual is somehow congruous with a democratic egalitarian society?

How insulting it is to assume that everyone with "tanned skin" as you weirdly say is "victim" who needs an artificial boost to make something of himself? This is not only immoral.. but DISGUSTING BEHAVIOR and actually racist itself.

Many immigrants are VASTLY more capable then many whites in certain areas... Indians are adepts at computer wizardry... asians are stupendous analytical minds .... who make excellent professionals... and i've met quite a few who are actually quite incensed at affirmative action, and are worried about how it can breed resentment for them (and rightly so)

a country dominated by europeans? really? what country is this? Where's the European Canadian Human rights tribunal? the Combined White Appeal maybe? The Anti Defamtion League of White people? How about the Association for the Advancement of White People? the White College fund? name me one channel that is resisting diversity or dominated by whites! JUST ONE. you won't be able to.

Euro-Canadians have many LESS privileges then minorities- which makes them i,m sorry to say SECOND CLASS citizens... not sure how "dominating we are"if we declare ourselves as loathsome inferiors.

Ours is a country where European Heritage Week is ILLEGAL http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/1999/09/29/..._nb2990929.html

Ours is a nation where Sikhs are allowed to be covered by construction workers unions and insurances DESPITE their refusal to wear construction helmets... ours is a world of double standards and repression of anything European (shakespear is now deemed too eurocentric for majors in ENGLISH LIT believe it or not!)... how you could say that this is a Euro dominated country... i'd have to say that you,re having a really good laugh right now.

What you propose is a perversion of tolerance and a capitulation in the face of ignominious injustice, and for that I cannot respect you.

[tango]

Euro-Canadians have many LESS privileges then minorities- which makes them i,m sorry to say SECOND CLASS citizens... not sure how "dominating we are"if we declare ourselves as loathsome inferiors.

Oh whine whine whine. you poor white boy.

[Mr.Canada]

I think the problem isn't immigrants that don't integrate. It's immigrants who are so opposed to integrating that even the children they raise in Canada are clearly and obviously foreigners in a foreign land, often having the same backwards, unsophisticated opniions as their parents,a and determined to revel in their ignorance. Such people resent Canadians and tend to blame all their problems on racism, but really, the problem is them.

I agree completely.

Euro Canadians are second class citizens in this country and it's sad. If you have brown skin and come to Canada you get big cheques right away to start a business, buy a house and car etc. Right off the plane. No wonder all the scum of the world is clamoring to get into Canada.

I'll be happy to note that we'll be retiring elsewhere, selling our properties and possessions, taking our money with us. To a place where my kind is respected and treated with dignity not frowned upon for not having brown skin.

Edited August 26, 2009 by Mr.Canada

[DogOnPorch]

I agree completely.

Euro Canadians are second class citizens in this country and it's sad. If you have brown skin and come to Canada you get big cheques right away to start a business, buy a house and car etc. Right off the plane. No wonder all the scum of the world is clamoring to get into Canada.

I'll be happy to note that we'll be retiring elsewhere, selling our properties and possessions, taking our money with us. To a place where my kind is respected and treated with dignity not frowned upon for not having brown skin.

Iceland??

[monkeyman]

I agree completely.

Euro Canadians are second class citizens in this country and it's sad. If you have brown skin and come to Canada you get big cheques right away to start a business, buy a house and car etc. Right off the plane. No wonder all the scum of the world is clamoring to get into Canada.

I'll be happy to note that we'll be retiring elsewhere, selling our properties and possessions, taking our money with us. To a place where my kind is respected and treated with dignity not frowned upon for not having brown skin.

We all saw that when the girl from Kenya MRS SOHAD was kep there for many months and the Canadian government didn't do anything to release her within the first 3 months how she was a FIRST CLASS CITIZEN......

What do you say about that ?

[monkeyman]

I agree completely.

Euro Canadians are second class citizens in this country and it's sad. If you have brown skin and come to Canada you get big cheques right away to start a business, buy a house and car etc. Right off the plane. No wonder all the scum of the world is clamoring to get into Canada.

I'll be happy to note that we'll be retiring elsewhere, selling our properties and possessions, taking our money with us. To a place where my kind is respected and treated with dignity not frowned upon for not having brown skin.

Then get the fuck out of Canada if you're that much paranoiac

[fellowtraveller]

[To a place where my kind is respected and treated with dignity not frowned upon for not having brown skin.

/quote]

Wow. Don't forget to budget a few bucks for the annual cross burning.

[Wild Bill]

Wow. Don't forget to budget a few bucks for the annual cross burning.

You know, when someone makes a comeback like yours to a post like that of Mr. Canada's, to me you both look like two sides of the same coin.

He expressed a resentment based on race and you promptly gave him another reason to feel that way!

The dream of a 'Star Trek' society is going to take a while with folks like you two in the way...

Edited August 26, 2009 by Wild Bill