kimmy Posted August 16, 2009 Report Share Posted August 16, 2009 If it's not true then I need to sue my local police station. You've heard the expression "pulled over for Driving While Black"? You may have been stopped for "Walking While Metis." -k Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TrueMetis Posted August 16, 2009 Report Share Posted August 16, 2009 You've heard the expression "pulled over for Driving While Black"? You may have been stopped for "Walking While Metis." -k I look white so it's more likley it was "Walking while 16... at night". Of course I don't consider 10 at night late enough to warrent calling the police. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted August 17, 2009 Report Share Posted August 17, 2009 If we simply outfitted police with wearable cameras that recorded everything when they stop people it would rarely ever be an issue when they do. It would put a lot more people's minds at ease, especially in a society that's growing increasingly nervous about its police in the wake of cases like Robert Dziekanski and Ian Bush and the ongoing unwillingness of police forces to be held accountable to anyone but themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TrueMetis Posted August 17, 2009 Report Share Posted August 17, 2009 If we simply outfitted police with wearable cameras that recorded everything when they stop people it would rarely ever be an issue when they do. It would put a lot more people's minds at ease, especially in a society that's growing increasingly nervous about its police in the wake of cases like Robert Dziekanski and Ian Bush and the ongoing unwillingness of police forces to be held accountable to anyone but themselves. Most police want to do that but the people don't want their taxes raised so the police can't afford it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbg Posted August 17, 2009 Report Share Posted August 17, 2009 So why was he asked to "step outside?" Why didn't the police just politely thank him and go on their way as they did in the incident with Dylan? This is what Obama was questioning, too.You may have a point there. I wasn't aware of that detail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbg Posted August 17, 2009 Report Share Posted August 17, 2009 Aren't they supposed to have "probable cause" to stop someone?No. The standard is "reasonable suspicion" for a "stop and frisk". Courts have held that a white person being in a "black" area can give rise to "reasonable suspicion".In the Gates case, an eyewitness report of someone trying to break into a home is certainly probable cause... in Dylan's case, I'm not sure what reason they would have to stop him, unless "looking like a hobo" or "singing through your nose" are now misdemeanors.Maybe playing the wrong guitar chords on "Blowin' in the Wind". My father pointed out he screwed it up both on the original record "The Freewheeling Bob Dylan" and a later live recording "Concert for Bangladesh".By any chance, was he walking down Desolation Row?No they weren't selling postcards of the hanging or painting the passports brown. The beauty parlor wasn't full of sailors. The circus wasn't in town. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbg Posted August 17, 2009 Report Share Posted August 17, 2009 Questions like that could wind up getting you tasered. Doesn't taze me one bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BubberMiley Posted August 17, 2009 Report Share Posted August 17, 2009 How do you screw up the chords on the studio version of a song you wrote yourself? Maybe everybody else is playing it wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbg Posted August 17, 2009 Report Share Posted August 17, 2009 How do you screw up the chords on the studio version of a song you wrote yourself? Maybe everybody else is playing it wrong. I have some trouble asking my father that question. He made the remarks during 1971 and 1972 and died during early 1973. I did ask him then and his response was that it didn't match the written guitar music or harmonic principals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FuzzyOnDetails Posted August 17, 2009 Report Share Posted August 17, 2009 The person walking down the street is not obligated to have I.D, but the officer is. While dragging your heels is never a good approach, "Why are you asking me for ID, when I am not obligated to have it, but you are?" is a perfectly legitimate response. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted August 17, 2009 Report Share Posted August 17, 2009 (edited) The person walking down the street is not obligated to have I.D, but the officer is. While dragging your heels is never a good approach, "Why are you asking me for ID, when I am not obligated to have it, but you are?" is a perfectly legitimate response. Not necessaarily true.....any valid stop and frisk by police in the USA will invoke several warrantless protocols to ID the suspect, confirm that a crime has/has not been committed, check for outstanding warrants, and protect police officers. If Dylan was on private property, using your response would have caused him further difficulties. While having ID is not required, identification by name, address, etc. is required in most circumstances unless one desires a free tour of the police station. http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/06/24/dorf.police.id/index.html Edited August 17, 2009 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BubberMiley Posted August 17, 2009 Report Share Posted August 17, 2009 I did ask him then and his response was that it didn't match the written guitar music or harmonic principals. Just to get off topic a bit, I got to the bottom of it for you. The part that resolves the verse ("the answer my friend is blowin in the wind; the answer is blowin in the wind) would normally be unresolved with a minor chord on the first 'wind' (and that's how Peter, Paul and Mary did it, and how it probably is in the sheet music). Since it's in F, that minor chord would be Dm. I listened to the Bangladesh version on Youtube and he clearly remains in the major Bb. It's a simpler construction, but I think he makes it work. Now back to the issue of cops pestering people because they don't like how they look. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabre Rider Posted August 17, 2009 Report Share Posted August 17, 2009 (edited) If I am not mistaken, unlike France neither Canada nor the US has mandatory ID laws on their respective books. Citizens of both nations are not obligated to carry any form of ID on their person nor does any law enforcement official have the right to demand ID from a citizen who is going about their lawful business. That we do as a rule carry some form of ID is a matter of personal convenience, not because we live in fear of some LEO demanding to see our papers. A drivers permit is an accepted form of ID, but its primary purpose is not ID, but to show that we are legally entitled and are qualified to drive the vehicle we are operating. Liquor store clerks and clerks that work in shops that sale tobacco do have the right to demand ID, but only if they are unsure of the age of the person purchasing said items, mainly because their license to sell such goods would be at risk if caught knowingly selling to minors. However, the citizen whom the clerk demands ID from has the right to refuse, and the clerk then has the right to refuse service to the citizen. And we are under no obligation to supply a LEO with any information without first being charged with an offense and even then only in the presence of legal advise. LEO's must have reasonable grounds to detain any citizen at anytime. If a citizen is caught in the act committing an act contrary to the law, or has been reasonably identified by a witness as a person who has committed a breach of the peace, then a LEO has the right and duty to detain said person. Said person whoever has no obligation to cooperate with the LEO, although it would be the smart thing to do in most cases. I am surprised that no one in the US has yet to make a Constitutional Challenge about the powers the various US Law Enforcement Agencies have usurped in the last 20 or 30 years. Being demanded to and forced to produce ID while going about ones lawfully business sounds like a violation against the 5th Amendment among others. And I would not be all that surprised to see a Charter Challenge here in Canada in the near future. Edited August 17, 2009 by Sabre Rider Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted August 17, 2009 Report Share Posted August 17, 2009 ... Said person whoever has no obligation to cooperate with the LEO, although it would be the smart thing to do in most cases. This is false....resisting detention or arrest are unlawful and subject to charges in and of itself. I am surprised that no one in the US has yet to make a Constitutional Challenge about the powers the various US Law Enforcement Agencies have usurped in the last 20 or 30 years. Being demanded to and forced to produce ID while going about ones lawfully business sounds like a violation against the 5th Amendment among others. And I would not be all that surprised to see a Charter Challenge here in Canada in the near future. They have....and the USSC has sided with law enforcement at varying levels of intrusiveness. The most comon form of identification, a driver's license, is issued by the government. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbg Posted August 17, 2009 Report Share Posted August 17, 2009 And we are under no obligation to supply a LEO with any information without first being charged with an offense and even then only in the presence of legal advise. LEO's must have reasonable grounds to detain any citizen at anytime. If a citizen is caught in the act committing an act contrary to the law, or has been reasonably identified by a witness as a person who has committed a breach of the peace, then a LEO has the right and duty to detain said person. Said person whoever has no obligation to cooperate with the LEO, although it would be the smart thing to do in most cases.I am surprised that no one in the US has yet to make a Constitutional Challenge about the powers the various US Law Enforcement Agencies have usurped in the last 20 or 30 years. Being demanded to and forced to produce ID while going about ones lawfully business sounds like a violation against the 5th Amendment among others. And I would not be all that surprised to see a Charter Challenge here in Canada in the near future. Simply asking someone's name isn't detaining them. Since most normal people are willing to give their names to people in authority, I would think that refusal would give grounds for reasonable suspicion, particularly if the person seems interesting enough to question in the first place. Let's put it this way. When I go to my dry cleaner to pick up a suit, or do other normal "around town" activities no on asks me any questions. If I'm walking around furtively it may well be another story entirely. It all comes down to the need of law enforcement to be pro-active. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FuzzyOnDetails Posted August 17, 2009 Report Share Posted August 17, 2009 While the cops are trained to be pushy and get compliance, they are quite limited in the obligations they are allowed to place on you. As I said before, it is not a good idea to drag your heels, but you can if you want. Watch how this video plays out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted August 17, 2009 Report Share Posted August 17, 2009 You've heard the expression "pulled over for Driving While Black"? You may have been stopped for "Walking While Metis." -k Pistol shots ring out in the barroom night Enter Patty Valentine from the upper hall. She sees the bartender in a pool of blood, Cries out, 'my god, they killed them all!' Here comes the story of the Hurricane, The man the authorities came to blame For somethin that he never done. Put in a prison cell, but one time he could-a been The champion of the world. --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted August 17, 2009 Report Share Posted August 17, 2009 While the cops are trained to be pushy and get compliance, they are quite limited in the obligations they are allowed to place on you. As I said before, it is not a good idea to drag your heels, but you can if you want.Watch how this video plays out. Looks like it is close to the Mexico US border, which makes sense. Should border patrol be at the border??? Not sure how this works. But the guy seems to know his rights, and he was let through quite easily in all 3 vids I have watched of this guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted August 17, 2009 Report Share Posted August 17, 2009 Looks like it is close to the Mexico US border, which makes sense. Should border patrol be at the border??? Not sure how this works. But the guy seems to know his rights, and he was let through quite easily in all 3 vids I have watched of this guy. Young people do not know their roots these days - or of the existance of aging forerunner pop poets...Jesus could wander through town and a couple of young cops would detain him most certainly --- "Jesus - who the heck is Jesus...hey Joe you ever heard of a fellow named Jesus?" --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest American Woman Posted August 17, 2009 Report Share Posted August 17, 2009 If I am not mistaken, unlike France neither Canada nor the US has mandatory ID laws on their respective books. Citizens of both nations are not obligated to carry any form of ID on their person nor does any law enforcement official have the right to demand ID from a citizen who is going about their lawful business. I know first hand of a Canadian who was asked by the Canadian police for his ID because he was wandering around and it's definitely within the law to wander around waiting for someone else, right? So Canada is no different in that respect than the United States. That we do as a rule carry some form of ID is a matter of personal convenience, not because we live in fear of some LEO demanding to see our papers. I don't know of anyone who lives in fear of it here, either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilber Posted August 17, 2009 Report Share Posted August 17, 2009 Seems odd to me that the police would roll up on somebody and demand ID for just walking down the street.Aren't they supposed to have "probable cause" to stop someone? In the Gates case, an eyewitness report of someone trying to break into a home is certainly probable cause... in Dylan's case, I'm not sure what reason they would have to stop him, unless "looking like a hobo" or "singing through your nose" are now misdemeanors. By any chance, was he walking down Desolation Row? -k According to the article the police responded "when a resident called to report someone wandering around the neighborhood". I would say that a resident calling in a suspicious person poking around the neighbourhood is probable cause. I know if I were in Dylan's situation, I would feel those officers were doing their job protecting their community as long as they treated me with respect, as it seems these two did. Aside from someone not knowing who Bob Dylan was, this is a non story. Besides, from some pictures I have seen of Dylan, there are a lot of neighbourhoods it doesn't look like he belongs in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted August 17, 2009 Report Share Posted August 17, 2009 ....Aside from someone not knowing who Bob Dylan was, this is a non story. Besides, from some pictures I have seen of Dylan, there are a lot of neighbourhoods it doesn't look like he belongs in. I don't care even if they knew who he was.....celebrity is not a free pass from a routine, lawful stop and frisk. Hell, I bet the cops would recognize OJ Simpson! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted August 17, 2009 Report Share Posted August 17, 2009 I don't care even if they knew who he was.....celebrity is not a free pass from a routine, lawful stop and frisk. Hell, I bet the cops would recognize OJ Simpson! Time passes old timer. There are cops that would not recognize Simpson...you forget-- you are old now.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted August 17, 2009 Report Share Posted August 17, 2009 I have been stopped by police a couple of times in my life. I was never asked for ID but they did ask my name. The last time was about 14 years ago. I had been at the local pub drinking and I was walking home quite gunned. They asked my a few questions, where I was, what the pub is like... where I was going where I worked...they gave my a lift home, and watched to make sure I was able to unlock the door. They were friendly, I thanked them, waved and went to my apartment. I asked them on the way why they stopped me. They said there was someone breaking into cars in the area whose description sort of matched my appearence.... The thing was, I had this big bud of sensimilla burning in my pocket... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted August 17, 2009 Report Share Posted August 17, 2009 Time passes old timer. There are cops that would not recognize Simpson...you forget-- you are old now.. And you forget that OJ Simpson was recently arrested and convicted in a high profile case (USA)....he would be the buzz in most PDs just for payback value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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