Omar Khdar

[Peter F]

So it seems as if what I've been saying all along is "perhaps" a possibility, and if it were the case, their citizenship could be legitimately revoked.

No. You said thier citizenship should be revoked because of what they did and have done or maybe are doing as Canadian citizens. Citizenship can be revoked by the state if you gained it through decietful means and if the truth had have been known then citizenship would never have been granted.

I am a Canadian Citizen now. I got that citizenship through legitimate means. I am also slowly turning into a big detriment to Canada and Canadians ... and hell just the world in general. And when I finish the transformation and have become a complete and utter arsehole, that Canadian citizenship will still be legitimate.

Some-ones going to have to show that the Khadr's lied to citizenship and immigration in order to get citizenship.

Once granted then Canadian they are and shall be no matter what kind of crimes they commit afterwards.

[Guest American Woman]

No. You said thier citizenship should be revoked because of what they did and have done or maybe are doing as Canadian citizens.

Citizenship can be revoked by the state if you gained it through decietful means and if the truth had have been known then citizenship would never have been granted.

I clearly stated that "fraud" (ie: "what they did") at the time of application for citizenship would be the means for revoking their citizenship, so thanks for repeating what I already posted, but it wasn't really necessary. Furthermore, I clearly stated that I think one's actions following one's being granted citizenship should enter into one's being allowed to retain citizenship. That is my opinion, and I stand by it. If it's not a factor, it should be; and perhaps it will be one day. I don't care if one applies for citizenship telling "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth." If they do not retain loyalty to Canada, if their loyalty shifts to the enemy, then they should not be able to retain their citizenship; and they most certainly shouldn't be able to return and receive free health care.

I am a Canadian Citizen now. I got that citizenship through legitimate means. I am also slowly turning into a big detriment to Canada and Canadians ... and hell just the world in general. And when I finish the transformation and have become a complete and utter arsehole, that Canadian citizenship will still be legitimate.

Being an "utter areshole" and supporting and fighting with the enemy are two very different things.

But the fact that you're a self-admitted "arsehole" certainly does explain a lot.

[Peter F]

..Furthermore, I clearly stated that I think one's actions following one's being granted citizenship should enter into one's being allowed to retain citizenship. That is my opinion, and I stand by it. If it's not a factor, it should be; and perhaps it will be one day.... If they do not retain loyalty to Canada, if their loyalty shifts to the enemy, then they should not be able to retain their citizenship; and they most certainly shouldn't be able to return and receive free health care."

Well what can be said? I disagree and think things are just fine the way it is.

Being an "utter areshole" and supporting and fighting with the enemy are two very different things.

Ok. replace "utter areshole" with vicious terrorist. The point remains the same.

But the fact that you're a self-admitted "arsehole" certainly does explain a lot.

explains what? That Canadians can be arsehole's? This is news?

[Army Guy]

It takes more than somebody saying something to toss Canadian citizenship.

They were Canadian citizens. The government did its duty to its citizens by evacuating them. Canadian citizen-ship doesn't come and go.

Yes your right it takes Canadian law to remove Canadian citizenship, Law that our government has put in place, a government that we the citizens have voted in....

And yes during that incident the government did do it's duty, regardless of those that held Canadian citizenship as a convince, for what ever reasons....what i was suggesting is that there should be some form of rules or laws in place that govern citizenship....

What sort of rules would you like put in place?

I'm not an expert on this subject, but rules that could negate citizenship of convinence, rules that are expanded to include acts of terrorism, perhaps even a tougher immigration process put in place, one that is funded and manned with suffiecient people to full investage all claims.

Shall Canadian Consuls conduct little tribunals before giving aid to those with Canadian citizenship to determine wether the supplicant is 'truly' a Canadian?

Thats not what i was suggesting , but rather revamping the process to eleminate those that just want to hold a Canadian passport and citizneship for all the extras that they bring....

As I would had I have been in thier boots. There is nothing wrong here. The kid needs medical attention he gets medical attention.

Here is where my opinion becomes a little jaded....I have comrads that have been crippled or died in this war on terror fighting the declared enemies of Canada....yes they all recieve top notch medical care, on our tax payers dollars, and they will also collect the same finicial assistance because they are no longer able to work, or buried....but where i draw the line is this, the entire Khadr family has in some way shape or form assisted those very same declared enemies we have been fighting, they have already made it very clear they hate what we stand for, our morals and values, we already know what thier moral value systems and beliefs are we see it displayed in the media everyday in Afghanistan...infact the very thing the love about us is our weakness to make the tough chioces...that we are always bound by some sort of rules....that will always work in thier favour...

Now we are saying we will have to turn the other cheek, suck it up... because someone declared that Hey they are Canadian citizens....entitled to our forgiveness....i include our forgiveness because we already know that young mr Khadr once returned to Canada will be set free, one can not try anyone that has commited a crime on the battlefield and make it stick in a civilian court of law......entitled to our Generosity....and all that goes with that including medical, ,mental, dental, health care, welfare, etc etc etc....and perhaps a large money winfall because we as a nation could not prove any of his misdeeds, which would lead into perhaps a suit again'st our nation for failing to act soon enough,.....entitled to everything that Canadian citizenship holds and means....

So yes it pisses me off somewhat that he may recieve more, than say a Canadian soldier that had his legs blown off by an IED ....planted thier by Khadrs borther in arms.....

It pisses me of that the Khadrs will not be the last, once this precident is set.....

I can understand that many folks want to see them punished - somehow, somewhen. But if we can't find them guilty of anything in a court of law why should we demand our government ignore due process and punish them anyways

.

Our current courts of laws are not set up to bring about justice right out of the battle space....that being said how is justice served....we know he is a terrorist, and has carried out terrorist activities be it from from what little evidence collected at the scene, his own admission, etc etc but because he was tortured, most of it unuseable....so we let him walk....and for most of Canadians we will have to wait until his next act to punish him or see justice served....i just hope it's not me that gets blown up by one of his future IED's ...or worse...

Thats what this is all about. In a nation with Security Certificates and Terrorism laws We can't even charge them with anything. No charges-

No trials - No verdicts - No punishment. Simple as that. And thats the way it should be.

That has got to say something about our justice system....here in Canada he walks....yet our nations military has ROE's that could have taken his life in Afghan no questions asked, no trails, no mercy, not a peep out of anyone here in Canada.....just one dead 15 year old Canadian fighting for the wrong side ....might have made the middle section of the paper....

If all we hear about widdle Omar is true then we will have charges- trial - verdict.

There is no need for working ourselves into a knot about his or his Mom's citizenship.

How could it possibly be any other way and still claim we defend our values?

And part of defending those values is ensuring someone is not pissing all over them....and if that means sending a terrorist back to the country of his crimes to face justice there so be it.....

[Guest American Woman]

Well what can be said? I disagree and think things are just fine the way it is.

Obviously you do disagree. Angrily. But here's a newsflash. Just because you disagree doesn't mean that you are right and I am wrong. Furthermore, I go back to my original statement that I don't see allowing people who admit to supporting and fighting with the enemy to retain their naturalized citizenship as 'virtuous tolerance.' I also think there should be some residency requirements after citizenship is granted, as there is beforehand. Otherwise, as I said, anyone and everyone could become citizens only to physically be there only when they want/need assistance.

Ok. replace "utter areshole" with vicious terrorist. The point remains the same.

No, the point doesn't remain the same.

explains what? That Canadians can be arsehole's? This is news?

Again with the lack of reading comprehension. Or willful 'ignorance.' No, the fact that Canadians can be arseholes most definitely is not news. What it explains is your anger, for one thing; your lashing out at people who don't agree that "things are just fine the way it is."

Edited August 26, 2009 by American Woman

[Army Guy]

A military court was told for the first time yesterday that Khadr, then 15, was buried under rubble from a collapsed roof before he was captured, which would suggest he could not have thrown the grenade.

A witness identified as Soldier No. 2 was said to have accidentally stepped on Khadr because he did not see him under the rubble.

The soldier "thought he was standing on a `trap door' because the ground did not seem solid," stated a motion submitted by Khadr's defence lawyers.

He then "bent down to move the brush away to see what was beneath him and discovered that he was standing on a person; and that Mr. Khadr appeared to be `acting dead,'" the motion continued.

That new version of what happened in Afghanistan on July 27, 2002, conflicts with reports from other soldiers who said Khadr was sitting up and conscious when he was shot twice in the back.

Your right Tango case dismissed, one statement over rules all others.....but now we have some other problems....like who threw the grenade....the other only possible terrorist alive in the compound was found only feet away from Omar....was he buried under the same rubble...how could have he possiably thrown anything....so now we have the case of the magical bouncing grenade.....was there even a grenade....who knows now....

one more question how did omar recieve the gunshot wounds to his back if he was buried in rubble....and whom did the other two soldiers see on his knees...

and who did they shoot on thier knees and thru the head........remember 2 soldiers claimed they see someone on his knees.....and since there was only 4 men , one was killed, another was performing medical aid to speers the medic .....that claimed they seen Omar, or someone in omars postion someone has to be lying..... or we are missing 2 bodies....

[Army Guy]

Why do you even bother? The likes of Argus and Lictor don't believe, his name is Omar and he's Muslim, why the fuck would he be innocent

I don't believe this is a matter of race or color, or religion....as far as i know Argus is a great supporter of this mission and what our military is trying to accomplish.....that is to help the people of Afghanistan (mostly a muslim country)recover from muslim extremists and thier brutal reign over them....I think the world would be better off without any terrorist or extremists....cristian or muslim or for that matter any race, color, or religion.....would you not agree...

[monkeyman]

I don't believe this is a matter of race or color, or religion....as far as i know Argus is a great supporter of this mission and what our military is trying to accomplish.....that is to help the people of Afghanistan (mostly a muslim country)recover from muslim extremists and thier brutal reign over them....I think the world would be better off without any terrorist or extremists....cristian or muslim or for that matter any race, color, or religion.....would you not agree...

You think I'm dumb??? ARgus happy to help Muslims? The guy just said in another post that AFGHAN PEOPLE (not only the talibans but AFGHAN PEOPLE) have backward culture and they are bad people, they don't deserve to live and should not be treated as Canadians even if they were born here.

[monkeyman]

They should never have gotten it to begin with. IMHO, immigrants should need at least 10 years residence before applying for citizenship, and refugees should not be able to apply except under special circumstances. Just because we let them stay here doesn't mean we have to let them become citizens when they would not otherwise qualify.

For once I agree on what you say. I would say that when you lived 10 years in CAnada then you MUST HAVE your Canadian citizenship. Giving only because you wer eborn here and NEVER LIVED IN HERE is just totally stupid.

You need to participate in the Canadian society for a certain lapse of time to be Canadian.

But of course, to be a real CAnadian according to ARgus you must be White and Christian......after that if you're black or Muslim, then you are a third class citizen...

[Argus]

You think I'm dumb???

Would you like me to hold a poll? I think the results would be pretty close to unanimous.

ARgus happy to help Muslims? The guy just said in another post that AFGHAN PEOPLE (not only the talibans but AFGHAN PEOPLE) have backward culture

Unquestionably true. You think otherwise?

and they are bad people, they don't deserve to live

You don't attach much importance to honesty do you? Or do you even know what you're saying half the time? Is it that you're just basically dishonest or that your lack of communications skills means you don't really understand what other people are saying?

[Argus]

and I've been living off the government teat since the day I was born. So what?

There is a difference between being stuck with a no-account loser because he was born here - and setting up an incredibly expensive program to bring foreigners here who turn out to be no-account losers. The system ought to be tightened so that we don't bring over such people. A much longer period of residency should be required, along with more stringent condictions for acceptance.

We might not be able to do much about you - although to my mind there's plenty we could do - but there's no need to add to the numbers of non-contributing people here.

Edited August 27, 2009 by Argus

[monkeyman]

Would you like me to hold a poll? I think the results would be pretty close to unanimous.

Unquestionably true. You think otherwise?

You don't attach much importance to honesty do you? Or do you even know what you're saying half the time? Is it that you're just basically dishonest or that your lack of communications skills means you don't really understand what other people are saying?

Shut up red neck.

Keep watching T.V. to become more and more ignorant. Get out of your jungle

[monkeyman]

There is a difference between being stuck with a no-account loser because he was born here - and setting up an incredibly expensive program to bring foreigners here who turn out to be no-account losers. The system ought to be tightened so that we don't bring over such people. A much longer period of residency should be required, along with more stringent condictions for acceptance.

We might not be able to do much about you - although to my mind there's plenty we could do - but there's no need to add to the numbers of non-contributing people here.

Let's kill them all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You'll be happy then mister red neck

[Bonam]

Shut up red neck.

Keep watching T.V. to become more and more ignorant. Get out of your jungle

Let's kill them all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You'll be happy then mister red neck

Lol you're really not doing your cause any service with your idiotic personal attacks.

[tango]

Everything I say is true, sonny. You should know that by now.

It's Ma'am to you ... sonny.

[Remiel]

That has got to say something about our justice system....here in Canada he walks....yet our nations military has ROE's that could have taken his life in Afghan no questions asked, no trails, no mercy, not a peep out of anyone here in Canada.....just one dead 15 year old Canadian fighting for the wrong side ....might have made the middle section of the paper....

That has been how capturing the enemy has gone down many, many times, Army Guy. I do not doubt that in wars past, prisoners of war who at their core were far worse villains than Omar Khadr, have been eventually released to go free when they could easily have been killed on the battlefield. The rules of combat and court do not run parallel.

[Hydraboss]

But of course, to be a real CAnadian according to ARgus you must be White and Christian......after that if you're black or Muslim, then you are a third class citizen...

That's pretty rude of you. Blacks are not third class citizens.

[noahbody]

I do not doubt that in wars past, prisoners of war who at their core were far worse villains than Omar Khadr, have been eventually released to go free when they could easily have been killed on the battlefield.

Can you name one who was released into the country he or she was fighting against while the war was still on?

Edited August 27, 2009 by noahbody

[Oleg Bach]

Can you name one who was released into the country he or she was fighting against while the war was still on?

Yah _ Mr/ Order Of Canada - Henry Morgantaler..What a chump - This delluded old man actually said - "Unwanted children grow up to be concentration camp guards" Talk about a pre-emptive strike against millions of should have been Canadians. They let this crazy old man walk about free - and no one will know how much damage he actually caused the nation. The road to hell is paved with good intentions - but it goes to hell none the less. So what I mentioned was another sort of war - as far as this WAR - I really don't remember there being any formal declaration of hostilities?

Any one who thinks we are actually at war in the glorious WW2 style is nuts! Between American exploitation and covert operations over the last 50 years - and the lunitic so-called Muslim terrorists..who are not really Muslims anymore than we are Christians or Jews. This is just a bickering between our corporate war lords and their more primative version of the same. The average person in Iraq or Afhanistan or Iran does not give a damn about Canada or even know where it is! Getting back to national atonomy for a moment - Is our citizenship worth anything - or are we all victims of some stupid globalism - and is Khdar the begining of that slippery slope ? If so then we need an election and quick.

[Remiel]

Can you name one who was released into the country he or she was fighting against while the war was still on?

Nice. I doubt most people could name a single person who has been a prisoner of war, off hand, unless they were a presidential candidate or a relative. And you expect me to find a relevant comparison to the specific circumstances of Omar Khadr, taken to a foreign country by his father, as an old boy, who fought against an ally, in a war of retribution that has gone on longer than most, and so on and so on. I doubt one exists, and therefore precedent is meaningless.

But besides that, if you actually want to get into that sort of debate, you missed what I was trying to convey to begin with. My point was not about where people are released, or when. My point is only that they are released after trying to kill you or your allies.

[Oleg Bach]

Nice. I doubt most people could name a single person who has been a prisoner of war, off hand, unless they were a presidential candidate or a relative. And you expect me to find a relevant comparison to the specific circumstances of Omar Khadr, taken to a foreign country by his father, as an old boy, who fought against an ally, in a war of retribution that has gone on longer than most, and so on and so on. I doubt one exists, and therefore precedent is meaningless.

But besides that, if you actually want to get into that sort of debate, you missed what I was trying to convey to begin with. My point was not about where people are released, or when. My point is only that they are released after trying to kill you or your allies.

What the heck were our "allies" doing in a place that had nothing to do with the facilitaion of 911? Other than a few belated training camps for those henchmen that are and were finaced by Pakistan and the Kingdom Of Saudi Arabia..we did not follow the buck - but are still involved in some diversionary muck instead of dealing with our buisness partners who had not qualms about damaging the prestiege of the American buisness community by knocking down some major buildings! Lets get back on track - rule of law is of utmost importance - and dealing with a Canadian citizen properly is paramount - whether you like them or not.

[wulf42]

- and dealing with a Canadian citizen properly is paramount - whether you like them or not.

This scumbag gave up his citizenship when he commited treason....he should be shot as a un-uniformed saboteur or a spy!

[Remiel]

This scumbag gave up his citizenship when he commited treason....he should be shot as a un-uniformed saboteur or a spy!

Treason should be for people who actually were accepted as full members of the community to begin with; that have the right to vote. Otherwise, how can you betray what you do not belong to?

[tango]

This scumbag gave up his citizenship when he commited treason....he should be shot as a un-uniformed saboteur or a spy!

A child cannot commit treason.

[tango]

Your right Tango case dismissed, one statement over rules all others.....but now we have some other problems....like who threw the grenade....the other only possible terrorist alive in the compound was found only feet away from Omar....was he buried under the same rubble...how could have he possiably thrown anything....so now we have the case of the magical bouncing grenade.....was there even a grenade....who knows now....

one more question how did omar recieve the gunshot wounds to his back if he was buried in rubble....and whom did the other two soldiers see on his knees...

and who did they shoot on thier knees and thru the head........remember 2 soldiers claimed they see someone on his knees.....and since there was only 4 men , one was killed, another was performing medical aid to speers the medic .....that claimed they seen Omar, or someone in omars postion someone has to be lying..... or we are missing 2 bodies....

From previous post:

Ground forces moved in to find (according to the original report) at least two survivors. According a U.S. Army officer’s statement, “I remember looking over my right shoulder and seeing (name redacted by government) just waste the guy who was still alive. He was shooting him.”

Another survivor was a 15 year old boy, Omar Khadr, found underneath a pile of rubble, his eyes bleeding from shrapnel, three bullet holes in his back, and a gaping chest wound where witnesses stated, “I could literally see his heart still beating.”

“PV2 had his sites right on him point blank. I was about to tap him on the back and tell him to kill him (Omar), but the SF guys stopped us and told us not to,” stated the same U.S. Army officer.

So ... perhaps the grenade was thrown by the man who was still alive until they shot him, or perhaps it was a friendly fire accident.

I don't know why they originally concocted the story about shooting Omar in the back. Pretty weird.

However, the photo seems pretty clear to me.