Pay up or leave

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Perhaps WE should pay the entire fair market cost of all the lands and resources that that we have used (and abused) belonging to First Nations since our forefathers first arrived here?

We already did that a few times, doesn't seem to matter to these people. Perhaps that is why the phrase "Indian Giver" was formulated?

In case you haven't been following along.....Six Nations is owed at least $1 trillion in a trust our government holds for their benefit. That does not include lands and or resources we took from the Haldimand Tract that we should have paid them way back when.

Right, sure....lets just deduct every damned dollar in cash and services those folks have drawn out of the public from the first penny spent to the last and tally up the numbers shall we, then you can tell me who owes who what.

Can you imagine that one First Nation - Six Nations of the Grand - is owed so much? And we haven't even begun to discuss the other hundreds of First Nations across Canada who are owed similarly..... We can't afford to "buy them out" of our interest in their lands. The best we could do is share the benefits with them for their perpetual care and upkeep, as required under Canadian law....

Hey fool that is what the government has been trying to do for the last century and a half. Sharing the wealth of the nation isn't what those people want, they are laying claim to entitlements that the rest of the citizens of Canada should not be allowed to have. What they are saying is that they are better than us and deserve more than us. They are saying that we should pay them all that we have so they can have what we have without ever having to work for it. That is a very disgusting thing to demand of Canadians, indeed it borders on something worth fighting over.

Seek and ye shall find fool.

[charter.rights]

You can qualify for a car loan based on your credit history (but not a mortgage, because the land is owned in common). You buy an expensive car/truck that keeps its value better, pay it off quickly, THEN you can use it for collateral on another loan to build/buy a house.

Excuse me for not being clear.

Well yes and no....actually.

The use of Equifax or other Credit rating systems is relatively new to First Nations housing. It may have an effect on a native's purchase of a car or truck but there is really no effect ~yet~ on First Nations.

On the other hand in many case such as Six Nations land is held through a "Certificate of Possession" which gives an individual possession rights over a parcel. However, under Section 89 of the Indian Act, no one but another native can mortgage, lease or otherwise collect on property belonging to an "Indian". Going to a bank essentially falls on deaf ears unless the Band is willing to underwrite and mortgage - usually at a 15% risk to the bank and an 85% risk to the Band housing fund. If there is default, then the Band must pay the bank back pronto.

The housing funds are limited, and so only a limited amount of homes can be mortgaged in this manner per year.

[tango]

You're not referencing ANY of this. You're just making claims. Whether or not the information is available on the internet doesn't matter. If there was a recognized, objective accounting of the facts, maybe what you say would have more validity. You're just spewing ridiculous numbers out of nowhere and the only people that seem to 'recognize' the claim is the Six Nations itself.

If you want to talk legal action, then legally the government, as the trustee, would be required to fully disclose all information of the trust accounting.

Also legally there is a little thing called "Limitations" meaning you can't retroactively file for damages hundreds of years past. It is the legal duty of the aggrieved party to take all actions possible to ensure that damages from broken contracts ect don't compound themselves.

From Stats Can, there are about 1.3 million aboroginals in Canada. I'm assuming the actual population of Six Nations is MUCH smaller than that. Whatever the portion of that 1.3 million that the Six Nations ends up being, it's idiotic suggest that they should be entitled to 4.5 billion annually by birthright. An interesting legal concept is that an aggrieved party is never to be awarded damages that would leave them better off overall than if the 'problem' had never happened. Suggesting that the descendants of the Six Nations, however many thousands of them there are, should be made fabulously wealthy and should BENEFIT from the productivity of current and past Canadians would not fly in ANY legal dictionary.

Don't toss around insults if you yourself do not know the truth.

You can find info about the 'accepted' Welland Canal claim here:

http://www.sixnations.ca/LandsResources/CurrentClaim.htm

You can do the calculations yourself, using a money conversion site. However, there's some question about whether the original numbers were in pounds sterling.

The "accounting" you wish to see has not been produced by Canada. In fact, the government of Canada refuses to produce any accounting for Six Nations trust fund.

Does that surprise you?

There's no "statute of limitations" on Aboriginal rights and titles.

Canada made sure no troublesome 'Indian' claims would be made by making it illegal for them to litigate land claims (1924-1969). They weren't allowed to have religious ceremonies or meetings either. Now they can.

The limitation on settlements is that it must address a balancing of the rights and interests of all parties.

Edited August 26, 2009 by tango

[charter.rights]

We already did that a few times, doesn't seem to matter to these people. Perhaps that is why the phrase "Indian Giver" was formulated?

Actually you might want to read the book "Indian Giver: How the Indians of the Americas Transformed the World.", Jack Weatherford. It might enlighten your mind and help you get out of your dim-witted comments.

Right, sure....lets just deduct every damned dollar in cash and services those folks have drawn out of the public from the first penny spent to the last and tally up the numbers shall we, then you can tell me who owes who what.

Yes, let's throw that into the calculations as well. Six Nations (to whom the $1 trillion is owed), receives about $65 -$75 million per year in direct government transfers to manage the Band. Let's for argument's sake say that another $100 million is thrown in for various aboriginal services collected by Six Nation members. With a $3.5 billion per annum accrued interest on their trust, we continue to fall behind on our payments by about $3.3 billion per year. So no matter how you swing it, we are still falling further behind in our obligations for holding their money.

Hey fool that is what the government has been trying to do for the last century and a half. Sharing the wealth of the nation isn't what those people want, they are laying claim to entitlements that the rest of the citizens of Canada should not be allowed to have. What they are saying is that they are better than us and deserve more than us. They are saying that we should pay them all that we have so they can have what we have without ever having to work for it. That is a very disgusting thing to demand of Canadians, indeed it borders on something worth fighting over.

No you still have it wrong, Jack. The $1 trillion is THEIR money, not ours. They are not claiming entitlements. The British told they we could manage THIER money better than they could and so convinced Six Nations to put it into a trust. Yet over the years the trust has been abused and used for personal gain. You do know that the courts think about lawyers and others who neglect or mismanage trusts, right?

The issue around First Nations' trusts has already been tested by the Supreme Court (I can't recall right now the actual citation) but the result was that Canada is not only obligated for the full amount with accrued and compounded interests, but we must manage the trust in a forthright and honest way with the interests of the First Nations above any and all other interests - including the government's or ours.

Seek and ye shall find fool.

Ah... this sucky part resembles you, you wannabe lawyer. Maybe if you stopped depending on legal aid for your income and joined the rest of us dealing with real cases, you might learn something. As it stands, it appears you have nothing left but the language of the degenerates that you attempt to defend.

[tango]

Well yes and no....actually.

The use of Equifax or other Credit rating systems is relatively new to First Nations housing. It may have an effect on a native's purchase of a car or truck but there is really no effect ~yet~ on First Nations.

On the other hand in many case such as Six Nations land is held through a "Certificate of Possession" which gives an individual possession rights over a parcel. However, under Section 89 of the Indian Act, no one but another native can mortgage, lease or otherwise collect on property belonging to an "Indian". Going to a bank essentially falls on deaf ears unless the Band is willing to underwrite and mortgage - usually at a 15% risk to the bank and an 85% risk to the Band housing fund. If there is default, then the Band must pay the bank back pronto.

The housing funds are limited, and so only a limited amount of homes can be mortgaged in this manner per year.

Right. I think you've made my point: It's difficult to get a mortgage on Indigenous land.

I've been told some use a good truck/car as collateral for a bank loan instead of a mortgage, to build/improve a house.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Actually you might want to read the book "Indian Giver: How the Indians of the Americas Transformed the World.", Jack Weatherford. It might enlighten your mind and help you get out of your dim-witted comments.

Yes, let's throw that into the calculations as well. Six Nations (to whom the $1 trillion is owed), receives about $65 -$75 million per year in direct government transfers to manage the Band. Let's for argument's sake say that another $100 million is thrown in for various aboriginal services collected by Six Nation members. With a $3.5 billion per annum accrued interest on their trust, we continue to fall behind on our payments by about $3.3 billion per year. So no matter how you swing it, we are still falling further behind in our obligations for holding their money.

No you still have it wrong, Jack. The $1 trillion is THEIR money, not ours. They are not claiming entitlements. The British told they we could manage THIER money better than they could and so convinced Six Nations to put it into a trust. Yet over the years the trust has been abused and used for personal gain. You do know that the courts think about lawyers and others who neglect or mismanage trusts, right?

The issue around First Nations' trusts has already been tested by the Supreme Court (I can't recall right now the actual citation) but the result was that Canada is not only obligated for the full amount with accrued and compounded interests, but we must manage the trust in a forthright and honest way with the interests of the First Nations above any and all other interests - including the government's or ours.

Ah... this sucky part resembles you, you wannabe lawyer. Maybe if you stopped depending on legal aid for your income and joined the rest of us dealing with real cases, you might learn something. As it stands, it appears you have nothing left but the language of the degenerates that you attempt to defend.

You are a liar and a fraud.

Have you ever seen me write or claim that I was a lawyer? I am not a wannabe anything. I stand for myself, nobody else. You and your kind disgust me. People are required to pay their own way. That is not something understood by yourself and your kind. All of this crap about the government owing you or anyone else anything just sickens me. Get a job and maybe convince the natives to get a job and earn what they want need or desire like the rest of the citizens. I am tired of the whinning and complaining that people like you seem to be doing all of the time.

The natives that I know work for a living, because I simply don't associate with the bums of the world who think I should work to look after them with my tax dollars. Those scum should move to a good communist country to get what they want and deserve.

[jbg]

One trillion! Think of the beer and bingo you could buy with that!

Throw in some super san plomb to sniff for good measure. Edited August 26, 2009 by jbg

[charter.rights]

You are a liar and a fraud.

Now that's an intelligent and thoughtful response. Right up there with all your other sucky-boy comments.

Have you ever seen me write or claim that I was a lawyer? I am not a wannabe anything. I stand for myself, nobody else. You and your kind disgust me. People are required to pay their own way. That is not something understood by yourself and your kind. All of this crap about the government owing you or anyone else anything just sickens me. Get a job and maybe convince the natives to get a job and earn what they want need or desire like the rest of the citizens. I am tired of the whinning and complaining that people like you seem to be doing all of the time.

The natives that I know work for a living, because I simply don't associate with the bums of the world who think I should work to look after them with my tax dollars. Those scum should move to a good communist country to get what they want and deserve.

Most the natives I know pay their own way as well...many with 6 figure incomes.

However, people like you don't have a say in any of the native issues because....well you are part of the problem. So why don't you give me all your money and let me manage it for you in trust? Then when you die, I will suggest that your heirs no longer have any claim to it and the I get to benefit wholly from it. Sounds fair , huh?

But the fact is that there is no statue of limitation on trust accounts. And since the government won't come clean, people like me have to stand up against them on behalf of First Nation people and call them on it. $1 trillion of THEIR money is in our hands. Given that we are legally and perpetually obligated how do you suppose we are going to pay it back...especially when we can't even afford to give them the interest on it? Ignoring our responsibility is not an answer, either.....Think again Jack boy.

Edited August 26, 2009 by charter.rights

[charter.rights]

Throw in some super san plomb to sniff for good measure.

It is highly likely that if Six Nations was paid their trust account in full that the kind of money floating around southern Ontario would have our own kids and adults sniffing gas. That kind of input into the regional economy that would see the $3.5 billion introduced annually would likely put tremendous power in the hands of Six Nations, and turn Brantford into a Dubai-like development capital.

You would think that the government would be afraid of all that power......oh wait...could THAT be the reason they don't want Six Nations to have its own money.....and perhaps why they are afraid of the cigarette trade (it produces about $10 million per month at Six Nations).....?

[Remiel]

While Jerry's name calling may have been going a little overboard, this one trillion dollar business you are pushing is simply outrageous. Funny too, that it should be such a nice, round, arbitrarily high figure.

[charter.rights]

While Jerry's name calling may have been going a little overboard, this one trillion dollar business you are pushing is simply outrageous. Funny too, that it should be such a nice, round, arbitrarily high figure.

Since the accrued interests force the value of the trust up about $9.5 million per day, using $1 trillion IS a nivce figure to relate to given that it is an obscene amount to be withholding from Six Nations. There is nothing arbitrary about it. Six Nations has all the accounts identified and calculated.

Considering how the Welland Land claim that begin with $10k to $14k value in 1824 was projected forward through compound interest alone and is worth between $500 million to $1 billion today, it isn;t difficult to see how they arrived at $1 trillion as a starting point. One need only realize that $14 million in 1800 dollars could easily become $1 trillion today.

Look at Osgoode Hall as another example. Six Nations trust monies were used to build and furnish it. With about £4500 used and never paid back, that account would likely be in the neighbourhood of about $750 million today. Start adding up all the other abuses like the Grand River Navigation Company, and William Jarvis' theft, it doesn't take long to figure that the $1 trillion is plausible and the trust is probaly much larger in reality.

[Guest TrueMetis]

http://www.sixnations.ca/LandsResources/CrownTrusteeship.htm

Today, Six Nations have approximately 45,482.952 acres out of 950,000 acres of land. As of December 31 2007, the Trust Fund Account for Six Nations was $2,330,637.26. Since 1784, More than 900,000 acres of land have been lost by the Six Nations. Some of this land was never surrendered. Other land was leased out of economic necessity. Proceeds of the disposal of these lands together with other Six Nations property, and a proper return on the investment of these proceeds, should have yielded a sudstantially larger sum of money in the trust accounts administered by the Crown than the anoubt refered to above. This demonstrates that the trust property has been substantially depleted.

So how exactly did a trust that no one was supposed to touch end up so depleted.

Were the hell did the money go? who is gonna to pay for this? and how much is 900,000 acres of land worth plus interest?

Edited August 26, 2009 by TrueMetis

[Remiel]

Look at Osgoode Hall as another example. Six Nations trust monies were used to build and furnish it. With about £4500 used and never paid back, that account would likely be in the neighbourhood of about $750 million today. Start adding up all the other abuses like the Grand River Navigation Company, and William Jarvis' theft, it doesn't take long to figure that the $1 trillion is plausible and the trust is probaly much larger in reality.

Two things: One, how was the interest rate obtained? Two: Turning a loan of 4500 pounds into a debt of 750 million in clearly usury or fraud. Both are crimes.

[tango]

http://www.sixnations.ca/LandsResources/CrownTrusteeship.htm

So how exactly did a trust that no one was supposed to touch end up so depleted.

Were the hell did the money go? who is gonna to pay for this? and how much is 900,000 acres of land worth plus interest?

Over a trillion.

[charter.rights]

Two things: One, how was the interest rate obtained? Two: Turning a loan of 4500 pounds into a debt of 750 million in clearly usury or fraud. Both are crimes.

Since about 1840 the annual (and later semi-annual) interest rates paid on native trusts has been laid out by an Order in Council. In a decision by the SCoC, it was determined that such interests were to be compounded, since the government not only had control of the trust but the interest derived from it as well.

The only thing that is fraudulent is the government's misuse of the trust for its own benefit while denying Six Nations access to it. However, there is no trickery involved in the calculation. Compounding interest over a 200 year period reaps huge benefits. In that period interest rates were set anywhere from 3% to 12% by the OC.

BTW....again...it is not a "debt". It is a trust. It is not owed to them. It is all their money.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Crow tastes bad!

I spoke badly yesterday and treated Charter of Rights with disrespect, for that I am sorry. I apologize to all for my poor behavior, the issue brought me to the brink of utter rage. Yet that is no excuse for what I said.

Even so, the issue still needs resolution. If this nation is truly faced with this problem, which I do not believe, then bankruptcy is the only solution. I cannot believe that any court in this or any other land would side with the natives on this issue.

As a matter of fact, I will cease to support "Canada" as a nation and seek sovereignty for my own province of Alberta. CR has one point, and that is the concept of the Canadian government having no choices in this matter, because it lacks the brains and the balls to do anything about just about anything. To give away the wealth of the nation to undeserving folks with laughable claims is comical.

[charter.rights]

Crow tastes bad!

I spoke badly yesterday and treated Charter of Rights with disrespect, for that I am sorry. I apologize to all for my poor behavior, the issue brought me to the brink of utter rage. Yet that is no excuse for what I said.

Even so, the issue still needs resolution. If this nation is truly faced with this problem, which I do not believe, then bankruptcy is the only solution. I cannot believe that any court in this or any other land would side with the natives on this issue.

As a matter of fact, I will cease to support "Canada" as a nation and seek sovereignty for my own province of Alberta. CR has one point, and that is the concept of the Canadian government having no choices in this matter, because it lacks the brains and the balls to do anything about just about anything. To give away the wealth of the nation to undeserving folks with laughable claims is comical.

Again it is not a "gift" we owe to Six Nations. It is their money that WE have had use of for all these years. They deserve what belongs to them.

We can certainly discuss the amounts but we cannot dispute who it belongs to or who deserves it.

Edited August 26, 2009 by charter.rights

[DogOnPorch]

Right. I think you've made my point: It's difficult to get a mortgage on Indigenous land.

I've been told some use a good truck/car as collateral for a bank loan instead of a mortgage, to build/improve a house.

Yeah...right. The scenario runs more like this: flush with cash from a recent land-claim windfall, it's off to the dealership to buy the biggest truck one can find. Then it's off to the bar...followed by the liquor store. Then it's off to the rented apartment somewhere in the Hood to party away the rest of the cash in one's pocket.

When one runs out of cash...repeat the procedure with the government...or wait until welfare Wednesday or CTC day. Depends if one can go that long w/o a beer.

[Moonbox]

Don't toss around insults if you yourself do not know the truth.

I didn't insult anyone genius.

You can find info about the 'accepted' Welland Canal claim here:

http://www.sixnations.ca/LandsResources/CurrentClaim.htm

You can do the calculations yourself, using a money conversion site. However, there's some question about whether the original numbers were in pounds sterling.

You just linked a Six Nations website. I hope you see the problem with this as far as reliable and unbiased sources are concerned.

The "accounting" you wish to see has not been produced by Canada. In fact, the government of Canada refuses to produce any accounting for Six Nations trust fund.

If the claims were sound, however, legally the government would be required to provide that accounting. They wouldn't be allowed to simply 'refuse'.

There's no "statute of limitations" on Aboriginal rights and titles.

We'll see how it all plays out in the courts okay?

[Riverwind]

We'll see how it all plays out in the courts okay?

She is right. The statute of limitations on civil actions is not fixed deadline and depends on the circumstances of the case. In this case the Canadian government did things like making it illegal for natives to hire lawyers to represent themselves. The net result is any attempt to apply the statute of limitations or the doctrine of latches would likely not be upheld in court.

OTOH, the shear size of the SN claim means that even if they did get a court to rule in their favour the ruling would trigger a debate on whether people living today should really be expected to make sacrifices to settle ancient wrongs. It would not take long for people to figure out that the majority can pass a constitutional amendement that severely limits - if not eliminates the crown's liabiity for cases that go back over 50 years or so. A trillion dollar bill would provide a lot of incentive to make sure such an amendement passed.

Edited August 26, 2009 by Riverwind

[Jerry J. Fortin]

The use of the word "we" in a sentence that spells out a debt owed to the ancestors of the dead forefathers of a conquered race of backward pagans is to say the least drivel.

I have no doubt that some bleeding hearts club camp followers would have their way and see the Canadian public impoverished for foolish reasons. This isn't about reason or logic, it isn't about the reality of the law. It is about vengeance and guilt and greed. To visit the sins of the father on the children is a primitive concept.

This isn't about what the treaties signed were all about. Those treaties were to preserve the way of live of the native tribes and allow them to hunt and fish and worship their gods. The entire argument has been morphed into a dollars and cents scenario, pushed by money hungry lawyers and a race of people who believe they are entitled to something which they are not.

Only a fool would believe that money will bring happiness or resurrect a way of life. These folks, the natives need to be treated the same as every other citizen of this land. Given the fact they they currently suggest they are not citizens of this land, I suggest they have a choice to make. Either they desire to be citizens and treated as such, or they desire sovereignty and all that goes with it. With that in mind I will now pose a simple question; whats it going to be?

[Moonbox]

She is right. The statute of limitations on civil actions is not fixed deadline and depends on the circumstances of the case. In this case the Canadian government did things like making it illegal for natives to hire lawyers to represent themselves. The net result is any attempt to apply the statute of limitations or the doctrine of latches would likely not be upheld in court.

The idea here is the whole fiasco is a legal nightmare. It's the duty of the courts to make fair and reasonable judgements. Interpreting agreements made 100+ years ago and then making fair judgements on these will be a nightmare and there's absolutely no court in the world that would validate a 1 trillion dollar claim from that long ago.

[Riverwind]

The idea here is the whole fiasco is a legal nightmare. It's the duty of the courts to make fair and reasonable judgements. Interpreting agreements made 100+ years ago and then making fair judgements on these will be a nightmare and there's absolutely no court in the world that would validate a 1 trillion dollar claim from that long ago.

The trouble is the SCC court has a really spotty record on these issues. Sometimes it comes up with a fair balance, other times it creates a legal mess. The SCC was forced to "clarify" a judgement over a NB land claim when it realized that the public outrage could trigger a really nasty backlash against the courts and aboriginals.

[Moonbox]

The Supreme Court would never in a million years validate a trillion dollar claim for a tiny community in southern ontario. It wouldn't in any way be a 'fair' judgement and the people saying it's going to happen are completely out to lunch.

[charter.rights]

The Supreme Court would never in a million years validate a trillion dollar claim for a tiny community in southern ontario. It wouldn't in any way be a 'fair' judgement and the people saying it's going to happen are completely out to lunch.

It isn't a "claim". It is a bonafide trust account and the government is the trustee. The SCoC would not have to validate it since it exists and has always existed. That is not in dispute. The only question would be whether it is $500 billion or $1 trillion as Six Nations claims...or somewhere in between. And the Supreme Court of Canada has already validated that any interest on any monies held in trust must be compounded in accordance with the Order in Council.

So really you are both out to lunch on this one.