"Birthers" movement problem for GOP

[CANADIEN]

I don't question that as I believe he was born in the US. I do wonder why an explanation of the difference between two documents as requested by Guthrie is considered by yourself as nutty though. Perhaps you can explain that one?

As for the State saying it is fine I am sure it is quite legal though it may not contain any exacting information as to exactly where he was born and who was attending the birth. I do wonder why he spends tens of thousands (possibly hundreds of thousands) of dollars defending himself instead of producing a document though. For those who say that the birthers would not be satisfied, a counter suit could then be filed requesting court costs which would then more than likely stifle any continued suits.

How often must it be repeated that has HAS produced a VALID document and that he has no obligation to produce another document, which in any case the State of Hawaii will not issue.

So of course he wil defend himself against frivolous lawsuits. To do otherwise would be legal suicide.

[CANADIEN]

There 's this one guy out there , that was on coasttocoastAM.com and again I heard this same guy on another radio talk show and he said he was going to prove that Obama wasn't born a US citizen and the birth certificate was fake and he was going to prove it before Obama became President. Well, Obama is President and the guy is still trying to prove it and now all the other Republic talk show host are out there doing and saying the same. The following article has proof that Obama was born in Hawaii. http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/reuters/usreport_us_obama_birth

Too bad that I cannot find the link anymore, but apparently one of the FAILED court actions against Obama stated as proof of a conspiracy that his grandmother was a witch who had put a curse on George W. Bush so that people would hate him ;-)

[CANADIEN]

These birthers seem to feel that his mother was out of the country at the time of his birth. Why, I have no idea. If there is any validity to their claim (which I have not seen) then it is would be a serious federal matter requiring an examination of the document by a federal entity rather than a state employee simply saying that it looks ok to her.

Under the U.S. Constitution, all matters not specifically delegated to the federal government belong to the State or the people. Registration and certification of births is not mentioned in the Constitution, therefore it is a State issue. Certifications of live birth issued by the State of Hawaii are accepted on face value by federal authorities so, unless there is reasonable ground to believe that a federal crim has been committed, the issue is, by law, strickly a State one.

Needless to say, the FBI has not seen fit to investigate the issue.

[CANADIEN]

I'm afraid you have it backwards, they are asking Obama to prove something, not the other way around. I'd like for Obama to prove they are wrong however, it is they who are asking for proof and he is the one not providing it to their stated satisfaction. As I said earlier though, I would like to understand why they seem to feel his mother was traveling near the end of her term.

Not only has Obama provided the proof already, but since he is accused by the nutjobs of having issued a forgery and.or occupying the Office of the President of the United states illegally, it is up to THEM to prove their allegations, not the other way aroiund.

Only Waldo would use the Annenberg Foundation to prove anything about Obama. you know, the same Annenberg Foundation that both he and Ayers worked for when heading the $46 million dollar Chicago Chicago Annenberg Challenge. The same Annenberg foundation that owns the Factcheck.org that he uses as proof and, who's board members contributed over three hundred fifty thousand dollars to his political campaigns.

The non-sense in that paragraph has been debunked months ago in another thread. You will never learn.

Edited July 29, 2009 by CANADIEN

[CANADIEN]

It was never proved in a court of law or, by a federal entity hence, it has only been discussed much like it is here. If those people had a case, that proof, as seen on Waldo's 'Obamacheck.org' and a state employee giving it the thumbs up wouldn't stand up for a second.

You got it in reverse. It has never been proven in a court of law or by any federal agency that Barack Obama did not meet the requirements to become a President of the United States, or that he made public a forgery.

In fact, each and every case submitted to courts to invalidate his election has been thrown out or is in the process of being thrown out.

BY LAW, a certification of life birth produced by the State of Hawaii is legal proof of the veracity of the information it contains. Courts can not reject it unless it is proven that it has been issued fraudulently, that it is a forgery, that the process for recording all births or issuing all certified copies does not meet certain standards, or that the form used in all cases does not contain sufficient information. Similarly, a federal agency cannot reject any birth certification submitted to it, unless in one of the cases above.

Edited July 29, 2009 by CANADIEN

[CANADIEN]

Stetement by the Director of the Department of Health of the State of Hawaii

Case closed

[KrustyKidd]

Accept Congress which is the court of law for presidents, ergo impeachment voted yesterday to declare Hawaii his birth place.

Huh? Hardly a declaration. Congress voted on a resolution that marked the fiftieth anniversary of the state of Hawaii and also mentioned within it that Obama was born there.

From CBS;

However, it appears Congress has moved on and has accepted Obama's island birthplace. The U.S. House on Monday unanimously approved a resolution recognizing and celebrating the 50th anniversary of Hawaii becoming the 50th state. A clause was included that reads: "Whereas the 44th President of the United States, Barack Obama, was born in Hawaii on August 4, 1961."

Good for him. Legally now he has been declared born in Hawaii. All on the word of one single state employee.

Punked

Yah you are the I don't believe this but guy right? I don't believe George Bush is a racist but he did let a lot of black people die in New Orleans. That is he guy you are right now.

Explain this with something to clarify what the heck you are saying please.

Thank you for proving my point.

In other words, the idea that a certified copy of a birth record (no matter how it is called) is incomplete unless physician information is included is based on what people wants thing to be, not on what they actually are.

So you are saying that Obama would not have the hospital, doctor attending etc on his? Strange, if he were born in 1961 in Hawaii he would as that was the practice at that time and, that information would have been transposed to an electronic form when the transition to paperless occurred.

Actually, the requirement is that the person be a "natural born citizen" (that is, born a citizen), be at least 35 year old, and has lived in the United states for at least 14 years. Nothing in there about place of birth. the text from the National Archives and Records Administration's website

In Obamas case, since his mother was not 19 (resided in the US for five years after the age of 14) and his father was non US, to be natural born he would have to be born on US soil.

How often must it be repeated that has HAS produced a VALID document and that he has no obligation to produce another document, which in any case the State of Hawaii will not issue.

So of course he wil defend himself against frivolous lawsuits. To do otherwise would be legal suicide.

Why would it be legal suicide to produce a copy of the doc when it is costing him hundreds of thousands of dollars to fight these 'frivolous' lawsuits?

Under the U.S. Constitution, all matters not specifically delegated to the federal government belong to the State or the people. Registration and certification of births is not mentioned in the Constitution, therefore it is a State issue. Certifications of live birth issued by the State of Hawaii are accepted on face value by federal authorities so, unless there is reasonable ground to believe that a federal crim has been committed, the issue is, by law, strickly a State one.

Or a matter of national security and interest such as a Presidential election.

Not only has Obama provided the proof already, but since he is accused by the nutjobs of having issued a forgery and.or occupying the Office of the President of the United states illegally, it is yp to TJEM to prove their allegations, not the other way aroiund.

The non-sense in that paragraph has been debunked months ago in another thread. You will never learn.

It was not debunked months ago in another thread. Are you denying that Annenberg owns factcheck? That $350 thousand was donated to Obamas campaigns by executives of Annenberg? That he and Ayers chaired the Annenberg challenge? What part is viewed as false that you need a link for?

When did he provide the proof? To my knowledge he has never, ever produced any birth document to a federal elections official for examination. In fact, isn't that the bill being brought up by Posey so that this sort of thing does not become an issue again?

You got it in reverse. It has never been proven in a court of law or by any federal agency that Barack Obama did not meet the requirements to become a President of the United States, or that he made public a forgery.

In fact, each and every case submitted to courts to invalidate his election has been thrown out or is in the process of being thrown out.

You are right on both counts. It has never been proven in court of law that Barrak Obama did not meet the requirements but really, when somebody asked him to prove he did meet them the case was thrown out. To some, this seems rather odd for a campaign who's main cornerstone was that of transparency.

He has not proved a thing. A web site is not a court of law nor is it a federal elections office.

BY LAW, a certification of life birth produced by the State of Hawaii is legal proof of the veracity of the information it contains. Courts can not reject it unless it is proven that it has been issued fraudulently, that it is a forgery, that the process for recording all births or issuing all certified copies does not meet certain standards, or that the form used in all cases does not contain sufficient information. Similarly, a federal agency cannot reject any birth certification submitted to it, unless in one of the cases above.

Not sure but I think these birthers contend that it was issued fraudulently which might explain why they wish to see the underlying information.

Stetement by the Director of the Department of Health of the State of Hawaii

Case closed

State employee decides fate of free world. Nice and legal, hope she's right.

[waldo]

the definitive myth vs. fact Krusty Birthers Takedown

Only Waldo would use the Annenberg Foundation to prove anything about Obama. you know, the same Annenberg Foundation that both he and Ayers worked for when heading the $46 million dollar Chicago Chicago Annenberg Challenge. The same Annenberg foundation that owns the Factcheck.org that he uses as proof and, who's board members contributed over three hundred fifty thousand dollars to his political campaigns.

Krusty, why the dance? Embrace your birther sentiments... c'mon Krusty - accept your nutjob fringe leanings... loud and proud Krusty... loud and proud!

c'mon Krusty - google is your friend! The courts dismissed that wingnut Berg's assertions about Obama and factcheck.org... only Krusty would recycle right-wing Republican birther talking points that have no basis in fact.

Therefore, the “connection” between Obama and Factcheck.org is as follows:

In the 1990s, Obama served on the board of an organization that received funding from a foundation, which

a- was established and funded by a couple, the surviving member of whom has expressly, publicly, endorsed McCain; and

b- now provides 100s of millions of dollars of grants to a wide variety of public interest organizations, including the organization (APPC) that runs Fact.check.org.

Therefore, Berg's attempts to discredit Factcheck.org by asserting that it is owned by the Chicago Annenberg Challenge are demonstrably inaccurate.

Krusty the clown... has no clue!

[lily]

Stolen borrowed from elsewhere:

I think all birthers should take an oath agreeing to leave the country if they can't produce their original birth certificate. And we are holding them to the same standard as they hold Obama. A certified copy isn't good enough. It must be THE original. Now don't tell us that the department of vital records won't issue you the ORIGINAL because we know that's not a good enough reason. Don't tell us that your state went paperless and destroyed all paper copies of your birth certificate, and thus you can only get a certified copy. That's not good enough. Only the original will suffice. All birthers must agree to these terms or shut the f*** up.

[bush_cheney2004]

Stolen borrowed from elsewhere:

Does that include cute baby footprints? I got mine....so where's Obamas?

[punked]

Does that include cute baby footprints? I got mine....so where's Obamas?

You guys should write that into a piece of legislation and try to pass it in congress. It will be a winner for Republicans.

[KrustyKidd]

Krusty, why the dance? Embrace your birther sentiments... c'mon Krusty - accept your nutjob fringe leanings... loud and proud Krusty... loud and proud!

c'mon Krusty - google is your friend! The courts dismissed that wingnut Berg's assertions about Obama and factcheck.org... only Krusty would recycle right-wing Republican birther talking points that have no basis in fact.

Krusty the clown... has no clue!

Apparently it is you who has no clue as I, unlike you, would certainly never use a pro Obama site to provide proof to back something of his up with. I said

who's board members contributed over three hundred fifty thousand dollars to his political campaigns.

Annenberg was intertwined with dozens of organizations who's activists and heads scratched each others backs.

Here is a start for you Wlado

Obama Contributors Emerged from Staff and Boards of Annenberg Grantees

Through the course of Obama’s political career, 91 people who served at some time as staff or a board member for one of the groups that received CAC money also contributed money at some time to one of Obama’s political campaigns, which include his runs for the state Senate, the U.S. Congress, the U.S. Senate and the presidency.

The information on contributions to Obama’s state senate campaigns comes from the Illinois State Board of Elections, and the information on contributions to Obama’s federal election campaigns comes from the Federal Election Commission, either directly or through the Center for Responsive Politics. (See list below.)

And the list does go on my simple friend. Indeed, it does go on, and on and on. About two hundred donations worth millions just by having a cursory look.

T

The Obama presidential campaign did not respond to inquiries for this story despite repeated phone calls and e-mails sent to the campaign by CNSNews.com.

Transparency huh?

Waldo! Using Obamacheck.org. Classic!

[punked]

Apparently it is you who has no clue as I, unlike you, would certainly never use a pro Obama site to provide proof to back something of his up with. I said

How about the hundreds of other sites which confirmed it. Including crazy conspiracy theory site world news net daily which hates Obama?

[KrustyKidd]

How about the hundreds of other sites which confirmed it. Including crazy conspiracy theory site world news net daily which hates Obama?

I think the ones who state Obama was not born in the US I believe are wrong. I also believe that to single Obama out without a firm reason like this is also wrong. However, wrong as it may be for them to ask, to ridicule people for asking for available verification is somewhat silly given we live in a world where this sort of proof should be provided by public officials given this particular one attempted to portray transparency rather than secrecy as one of his pillars of office.

[punked]

I think the ones who state Obama was not born in the US I believe are wrong. I also believe that to single Obama out without a firm reason like this is also wrong. However, wrong as it may be for them to ask, to ridicule people for asking for available verification is somewhat silly given we live in a world where this sort of proof should be provided by public officials given this particular one attempted to portray transparency rather than secrecy as one of his pillars of office.

This has nothing to do with his administration, it is a distraction and the more proof Obama gives them the loader their voices get. He word wasn't enough, so the team pointed to the news paper clippings, wasn't enough so certificate of live, wasn't enough, it will just keep getting bigger and has nothing to do with anything.

[KrustyKidd]

This has nothing to do with his administration, it is a distraction and the more proof Obama gives them the loader their voices get. He word wasn't enough, so the team pointed to the news paper clippings, wasn't enough so certificate of live, wasn't enough, it will just keep getting bigger and has nothing to do with anything.

It was a distraction wasn't it? Strange they just didn't show the goods to begin with rather than play games like this which only added to the suspicion. Sort of like when asked for two pieces of ID you pull out a pen and paper and write your name on it twice,then when pressed further, your friend vouches for you then when pressed even further you show whomever your keychain with your first name on it and when cornered, you pull out your library card backed up by a gym membership. All the while your drivers license and health card with photo are right in your back pocket.

[CANADIEN]

Good for him. Legally now he has been declared born in Hawaii. All on the word of one single state employee.

No.

He has made public a certified copy of his birth records, and now the person whose sworn duty it is the administer the State's vital statistics system has confirmed that the record as maintained by her Department shows he was born in Hawaii.

So you are saying that Obama would not have the hospital, doctor attending etc on his?

Absolutely not. What I am saying is that you will not find that information on ANY certied copy (called in Hawaii certifications of life birth). And that BY LAW the certified copy is proof of the registration of the birth.

In Obamas case, since his mother was not 19 (resided in the US for five years after the age of 14) and his father was non US, to be natural born he would have to be born on US soil.

irrelevant. He was born in Hawaii

Why would it be legal suicide to produce a copy of the doc when it is costing him hundreds of thousands of dollars to fight these 'frivolous' lawsuits?

Once again, he HAD produced a LEGALLY RECOGNIZED copy of the original record of his birth. So, here what would have happened had he decided not to defend himself against those lawsuits by the morons.

- the morons: Your honour, please order the defendant to produce his birth certificate

- Obama: Certainly. Here's a certfied copy issued by the State of Hawaii

- the morons: that's not what we want. Your Honour, please order the defendant to produce his birth certificate

- Hawaii's Department of Health: What we gave the defendend is a legally certified copy, and has probative

- the morons: please order...

- the Judge: According to Hawaiian law, what the defendant produced has probated value, and the State department of Health has confirmed this. But just to be sure... defendant, you are ordered to produce another copy of your birth record as certified by the State

- Obama: Yes Your Honour. Here it is.

- the morons: it is a forgery, we want to see the real record

- the Judge: I am satisfied that I have before me a certied copy of the birth record of Barack H. Obama Jr. of the State of Hawaii. It proves conclusively that the defendant is a natural-born citizen of the United States. Case dismissed.

- the morons: APPEAL! APPEAL!

So, judicial suicide is not an apt description, I'll admit. But for Obama not to try to stop that circus dead in its track would have ended up costing double, would have cost the citizens of the State of Hawaii money better spent elsewwwwwhere, and would have tied up the court system for years for absolutely nothing.

Anyways, in ALL cases, the judge has concluded that the suit had no standing.

It was not debunked months ago in another thread.

It was. Tthat you do not have the brains to understand it does not change that FACT. BTW, the chair of the Annenberg Foundation publicly supported MCCAIN during the election.

When did he provide the proof? To my knowledge he has never, ever produced any birth document to a federal elections official for examination. In fact, isn't that the bill being brought up by Posey so that this sort of thing does not become an issue again?

ONCE AGAIN. The document he he publicly released TO THE WHOLE PLANET is cetified as a copy of the original record. Further, the person whose JOB it is to ensure the integrity of the vital statistic system of the State of Hawaii has taken the unprecedented step of publicly declaring that the record on file shows that he was born in Hawaii. That is more than sufficient proof, and enough to satisfy anyone with a functioning brain.

That being siad, I am surprised that there has never veen a federal law requiring presidential candidates to submit proof that they meet the requirements set by the Constitution. But if there was one, what document do you think Obama would produce? The document issued to him by the State of Hawaii, that meets the standards agreed upon by the government of the United States and all 50 states... in other word, the SAME document he made publicly available.

And if any federal agency were then to try to reject that perfectly legal document, they would then be dragged into court, not by Obama's lawyers, but by those of the state of Hawaii, probably joined by the lawyers for most of the other States. And the feds would probably lose, as the determination of what constitue a legal prood of birth is a state power.

You are right on both counts. It has never been proven in court of law that Barrak Obama did not meet the requirements but really, when somebody asked him to prove he did meet them the case was thrown out. To some, this seems rather odd for a campaign who's main cornerstone was that of transparency.

To those with a brain, the fact that judge after judge dismissed the cases is proof that they had no merit to start with.

He has not proved a thing.

How he made the LEGAL document he received publicly available is irrelevant. The simple fact that it was issued to him proves that the information on it is as recorded in State record.

State employee decides fate of free world. Nice and legal, hope she's right.

Correction. The top state official in charge of the vital statistics system confirmed that there is a record of the birth of a Barack Hussein Obama in Honolulu in 1961. That's the end of the story.

Unless you want to argue that the State of hawaii, its officials and its vital statistics systtem are not to be trusted?

[CANADIEN]

Does that include cute baby footprints? I got mine....so where's Obamas?

Good question. The cetificate issued by the hospital with the footpppprints on it has no legal value. try sending that with an application for a US passportm and the application will be denied.

[CANADIEN]

I think the ones who state Obama was not born in the US I believe are wrong. I also believe that to single Obama out without a firm reason like this is also wrong. However, wrong as it may be for them to ask, to ridicule people for asking for available verification is somewhat silly given we live in a world where this sort of proof should be provided by public officials given this particular one attempted to portray transparency rather than secrecy as one of his pillars of office.

What is silly, or more exactly stupid, is the claim that a legal document is not legal enough because... a bunch of idiots cannot accept the facts recorded on it.

Equally stupid is the claim that there has been no available verification. The document that was made public is IN ITSELF a verification of its contents, and now a high-ranked State official has confirmed that she had verified the original record personnally.

Nobody needs to ridicule the birthers. They do it very well themselves.

[CANADIEN]

It was a distraction wasn't it? Strange they just didn't show the goods to begin with rather than play games like this which only added to the suspicion. Sort of like when asked for two pieces of ID you pull out a pen and paper and write your name on it twice,then when pressed further, your friend vouches for you then when pressed even further you show whomever your keychain with your first name on it and when cornered, you pull out your library card backed up by a gym membership. All the while your drivers license and health card with photo are right in your back pocket.

Correction on your scenario. You're asked for two pieces of I.D. You provide your driver's license and your Health Card. The guy you deal with doesn't like you, and think you're a fraud anyway, so he says the driver's license is a forgery. You say that was renewed three weeks ago, but he tells you "I know you were wearing glasses ten years ago. I want the real driver's license, the one with the glasses". You say this is the document issued to you, with legal value. that's not enough, so he phones the licensing office. They tell him "yep, the photo we have on file from when he renowed his license shows him without glasses, and all the info is as stated on the license". To which the reply is "are you a judge or something, to claim that what you are is legit? You know nothing."

PS: For Ontario residents. By law, nobody can ask you for your health card except for the purpose of delivering health-related services.

Edited July 29, 2009 by CANADIEN

[bush_cheney2004]

Good question. The cetificate issued by the hospital with the footpppprints on it has no legal value. try sending that with an application for a US passportm and the application will be denied.

Why would I do that when I already have a birth certificate? I am just trying to play the game here.

How about my cute little baby bracelet....blue for boys....pink for girls?

I use to have my red, white, and blue umbilical cord too, but the cat ate it.

[waldo]

How about the hundreds of other sites which confirmed it. Including crazy conspiracy theory site world news net daily which hates Obama?

Krusty the Clown would rather deflect than actually acknowledge the beat-down he and other birthers are taking... deflect rather than respond to the itemized rebuttal points offered.

Krusty's hypocrisy is so blatant... on one hand Krusty says he believes Obama is an American citizen and proclaims he's not a birther... while at the same time calling for Obama to produce "the original". Guess what Krusty? If you're asking for Obama's birth certificate... you're a birther. Like I said Krusty - why the dance? Just loudly and proudly proclaim you're a birther! Why fight it?

[CANADIEN]

Why would I do that when I already have a birth certificate? I am just trying to play the game here.

How about my cute little baby bracelet....blue for boys....pink for girls?

I use to have my red, white, and blue umbilical cord too, but the cat ate it.

The US Office of "Consular Affairs (correct me if I have the name wrong) has seen fit to warn people that the "certificate with footprints' will not be accept for the purpose of getting a passport.... Apparently, some people think it HAS legal value.

[dub]

sinking...

first it was the tea party and now it's this birther movement.

congrats on, somehow, making the other ridiculous party, look good.

this is why americans are made fun of. it's because there are people who eat this shit up.

[jdobbin]

58 percent of GOP not sure/doubt Obama born in US

http://www.politico.com/blogs/glennthrush/...US.html?showall

Shocker poll from Kos/Research2000 today.

A whopping 58 percent of Republicans either think Barack Obama wasn't born in the US (28 percent) or aren't sure (30 percent). A mere 42 percent think he was.

That means a majority of Republicans polled either don't know about -- or don't believe the seemingly incontrovertible evidence Obama's camp has presented over and over and over that he was born in Hawaii in '61.

It also explains why Republicans, including Roy Blunt, are playing footsie with the Birther fringe.

This is going to become a bigger and bigger issue for Republicans who will ask the GOP representative to remove Obama from office as they have in recent weeks.