Chretien honoured by Queen

[lily]

msj, if I had been Chretien, and a good federal Liberal, I would have refused the award.

I think that such a refusal would have helped Ignatieff and the federal Liberal Party.

If Chretien accepted the award, it's because he has a big ego. Chretien (and Liberals) love the limelight.

----

Liberals are like Sacha Baron Cohen - attentionistas, look-at-me, drama queens.

This is completely the reason I'm a Lib.

[msj]

Liberals are like Sacha Baron Cohen - attentionistas, look-at-me, drama queens.

The only drama queen here is you.

This is like saying that Conservatives are like Jerry Falwell - religious, hypocrites, and nuts.

Obviously not true for most Conservatives.

[jdobbin]

Fine, Ok. I'm a liar (and I don't know that the woman on our 20s is our head of state and I don't understand the CPP/RRQ system).

You are a liar to suggest that Harper was even informed of this in advance. Not even the most hyperpartisan Tory is indicating that the government was informed by the Queen of the choice.

The Queen consults no government, not even her own, about the merit. It is her award and her's alone in deciding to give it out.

The Royal did not consult the U.S. President when it awarded Eisenhower the order in 1945. It did not consult Indian prime minister when it awarded Mother Teresa the merit in 1983.

A peerage was not in the offering. The order does not violate any Canadian law. It is like getting any other award of distinction.

In either case, it's bad for the federal Liberals and Ignatieff. Harper wins.

How?

My point above is that Harper could have stopped this but he didn't because he knew that it would play to Chretien's vanity, and Chretien no longer cares about Liberals.

You are wrong and a liar that Harper could stop it.

Your argument about the Queen's prerogative entirely misses the point. (If Chretien really cared about federal Liberals, he would have refused the award.) It is my admiration/disgust for Harper's cynicism that you seem to miss. Imagine his face when this request crossed his desk. I'm sure he signed the Queen's request with a grin.

I think any Royal would tell you straight to your face that you are wrong.

If Harper had it cross his desk, you had better believe that he would have made a stink. It is in his nature. He attacks and this would be an attack opportunity.

The thing is that the Queen doesn't answer to Harper on her own award. If she doesn't consult her own government, you can bet she doesn't consult with Canada's.

Heck, I bet Harper proposed the award to the Queen to see whether Chretien would take the bait.

Heck, I bet if Harper did suggest the Queen award her own special merit to anyone, she would tell him to mind his own business.

Edited July 13, 2009 by jdobbin

[msj]

Heck, I bet if Harper did suggest the Queen award her own special merit to anyone, she would tell him to mind his own business.

Good point.

I wonder if August would agree that Harper must have a big ego to even suggest such a thing to the Queen. [Note, I don't think this conspiracy theory of August's happened or is even remotely plausible - but lets just pretend to be in his world for arguments sake]

[g_bambino]

If she doesn't consult her own government, you can bet she doesn't consult with Canada's.

Er, I agree with you on most of your points, but in regards to the above: "her own government" and "Canada's [government]" are one and the same thing. I think you meant that she doesn't consult on this matter with either her British government or her Canadian one.

[msj]

Looks like she does consult with people about this.

She asked Mel Cappe, former CDN High Commission to Britain, back in 2005 about it. Likely to see if Chretien would be willing to accept the award.

Didn't Leonard Cohen turn down an award at one time which was kind of embarrassing for the Governor General?

Anyway, maybe Harper has been planning this thing for years?

Edited July 14, 2009 by msj

[jdobbin]

Er, I agree with you on most of your points, but in regards to the above: "her own government" and "Canada's [government]" are one and the same thing. I think you meant that she doesn't consult on this matter with either her British government or her Canadian one.

For brevity's sake, I left off the British part.

The Queen seems to consult trusted people about whether the individual in question will accept the award. She consults no governments and probably would tell any of them to go fish if they suggested someone or refused someone.

[capricorn]

The Queen seems to consult trusted people about whether the individual in question will accept the award.

That's reasonable. A sure way to avoid an embarrassment should the selected recipient decline.

She consults no governments and probably would tell any of them to go fish if they suggested someone or refused someone.

That is certainly her prerogative.

----

I have read that Chretien is flattered by the honour. Politics aside, a man his age who spent 40 straight years in public service is deserving of some kind of recognition. Upon reflection and, leaving his faults and misdeeds aside, Canadians should take note that the Queen saw fit to select one of our own to receive the Order of Merit.

[ToadBrother]

I have read that Chretien is flattered by the honour. Politics aside, a man his age who spent 40 straight years in public service is deserving of some kind of recognition. Upon reflection and, leaving his faults and misdeeds aside, Canadians should take note that the Queen saw fit to select one of our own to receive the Order of Merit.

There's no such thing as a perfect politician (or perfect anything else for that matter). I agree that Chretien was, the Commonwealth over, one of its most outstanding and successful parliamentarians.

[August1991]

I have read that Chretien is flattered by the honour.

And how will that flattery play in Quebec? What will Ignatieff - the grandson of a "Russian prince" - say?

I think posters to this forum don't understand federal Canadian politics.

Didn't Leonard Cohen turn down an award at one time which was kind of embarrassing for the Governor General?

Anyway, maybe Harper has been planning this thing for years?

As I have argued elsewhere, it is impossible for this Queen Elizabeth to give any title to a retired Canadian PM without prior approval from a sittng Canadian PM.

Moreover, this British Queen would likely give an award based on advice from the current Canadian PM.

IOW, Harper advised Elizabeth to award Chretien. Imagine! (Chretien, the guy who stole taxpayer money through sponsorships and gave it to his party but lost to Paul Martin and then changed the party financing rules.) Why would Harper want the British Queen to give an award to Chretien, a guy supposedly from Quebec?

Duh.

Edited July 15, 2009 by August1991

[Smallc]

What will Ignatieff - the grandson of a "Russian prince" - say?

Better question, what does that have to do with anything?

This is the highest honour a person in this country can receive. It doesn't matter how it plays out.

[August1991]

Better question, what does that have to do with anything?

Stephen Harper has struck a critical point.

Pierre Trudeau, Jean Chretien and Brian Mulroney, for example, were all vain men.

I am not surprised at all that Jean Chretien would accept an award from a British Queen.

Trudeau at least had the ego to dance a jig behind her.

[ToadBrother]

Stephen Harper has struck a critical point.

Pierre Trudeau, Jean Chretien and Brian Mulroney, for example, were all vain men.

I am not surprised at all that Jean Chretien would accept an award from a British Queen.

Trudeau at least had the ego to dance a jig behind her.

Last time I checked, that "British" Queen also happens to be the Queen of Canada.

[Smallc]

Stephen Harper has struck a critical point.

Stephen Harper has done nothing, and you are making less and less sense by the minute.

[August1991]

Last time I checked, that "British" Queen also happens to be the Queen of Canada.

Then why did Trudeau change the faces on our money?

ToadBrother, I don't think you understand Canadian federal politics.

Stephen Harper has done nothing, and you are making less and less sense by the minute.

I think Harper has hit on Liberal vanity.

Politicians are vain in general but federal Liberals are particularly vain people. Chretien wanted an award from a British Queen.

Harper gave it to him.

Edited July 15, 2009 by August1991

[Smallc]

The face on our coins is still the same. I don't think that you understand Canadian federal politics.

Edited July 15, 2009 by Smallc

[msj]

And how will that flattery play in Quebec? What will Ignatieff - the grandson of a "Russian prince" - say?

I think posters to this forum don't understand federal Canadian politics.

As I have argued elsewhere, it is impossible for this Queen Elizabeth to give any title to a retired Canadian PM without prior approval from a sittng Canadian PM.

Moreover, this British Queen would likely give an award based on advice from the current Canadian PM.

IOW, Harper advised Elizabeth to award Chretien. Imagine! (Chretien, the guy who stole taxpayer money through sponsorships and gave it to his party but lost to Paul Martin and then changed the party financing rules.) Why would Harper want the British Queen to give an award to Chretien, a guy supposedly from Quebec?

Duh.

I don't think you understand much of anything.

Our (whether one likes it or not) Queen can choose whoever she wants.

As the link already provided states, this is an award without ministerial advice.

That is not to say that she would not have informed the PMO (and whether it is Harper or someone else is irrelevant) of this.

That would be the polite thing to do and the Queen tends to be polite.

However, she is not compelled to inform the PMO of this because this is not a title (like a Knighthood which has legal implications) but a mark of honour.

Furthermore - last time I checked, the Queen is still on our money, and it would be very strange for the Queen to give Jean Chretien an award which is limited to 24 living members on the basis of Harper's advice (presumably as far back as 2005) just for some strange vanity play.

Edited July 15, 2009 by msj

[ToadBrother]

Then why did Trudeau change the faces on our money?

ToadBrother, I don't think you understand Canadian federal politics.

What does that have to do with what I said. She's the Queen of Canada. She's honoring a minister that has served Her in many capacities for four decades. It really has nothing to do with federal politics at all.

[August1991]

I don't think you understand much of anything.

I don't understand much of anything?

Then why did Trudeau dance a pirouette behind the same woman who will give an award to Chretien?

The Liberal Party has problems. Chretien has created a problem for Ignatieff.

The problem? Liberal vanity.

Edited July 15, 2009 by August1991

[Smallc]

You seem to read far too deeply into things.

Edited July 15, 2009 by Smallc

[msj]

You seem to read far too deeply into things.

Oh no, tin foil hat stuff is a result of shallowness.

Making things up (like Harper getting the Queen to give this honour to JC) does not count as deep.

Well, unless we're talking about the depth of August's BS.

[Smallc]

Maybe I should change that. He seems to extrapolate far too much from a very small amount of information (i.e., this is indicative of problems with the Liberal party....created by Trudeau and Chretien).

[August1991]

You seem to read far too deeply into things.

Do I read far too deeply?

Let's see how this British award to Jean Chretien plays out in federal Canadian politics.

[Smallc]

I'd bet it doesn't play out in any way. This is a gift from the Queen of Canada to the Right Honourable Jean Chretien. Nothing more.

[msj]

Then why did Trudeau dance a pirouette behind the same woman who will give an award to Chretien?

Because he has a sense of humour? And maybe the Queen does too?

Because it's PET and not JC?

Because the relationship between Trudeau's dance moves has as much to do with this award as a butterfly farting in outer space in 2009 has to do with the Tsunami in 2006?

Hey, do ya think PET knew that the Queen was going to give this award to JC when he broke his move?

Oh, the movie variations could be endless - we'll call it the Repatriation Experiment and go back in time to try and stop the Boston Tea Party and CAN/US/UK can be one big happy Empire again.

And PET, of course, would be living throughout the entire movie sort of like the Highlander movies. Yeah, PET gets his head cut off by Harper, and Harper takes PET's powers, and that's why Harper is such a cunning politician as to plan this award for JC.

Maybe Harper planned Dion's rise and fall and Ignatieff's rise too!

My GAWD Harper is a clever man! Who knows what kind of play he has pulled over the Queen!

The Liberal Party has problems. Chretien has created a problem for Ignatieff.

The problem? Liberal vanity.

Hey, I thought Harper created the problem? So, which is it?

1) Harper created the problem which JC foolishly (and vainly) fell for and this is going to trouble Ignatieff?

2) JC created the problem by foolishly (and vainly) falling for it and this is going to trouble Ignatieff?

3) The Queen (due to Harper's cunningness?) created the problem which JC foolishly (and vainly) fell for and this is going to trouble Ignatieff?

4 to infinity any number of other scenarios one can make up.

Hey, making things up out of my @$$ is fun.

Edited July 15, 2009 by msj