pallywood

[DogOnPorch]

by the way, look at the fake children's bodies.

pallywood never seizes to amaze me.

Al Jazzera. Well you know you can trust them not to play the Pallywood game.

[jbg]

what other proof?

A proof is a proof (link).

[Bonam]

A proof is a proof (link).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aX6XMIldkRU

[dub]

You can easily find plenty just by using google. Here's some examples. Note especially the third map.

http://www.fmep.org/maps/redeployment-fina...t_download/file

http://www.fmep.org/maps/redeployment-fina...t_download/file

http://www.fmep.org/maps/redeployment-fina...t_download/file

FMEP is a Palestinian-leaning group if anything.

Foundation for Middle East Peace is not a 'palestinian learning group'.

the 3rd map is not from camp david and the 2nd link to the camp david map shows the same israeli controlled highways that has already been discussed which create cantons in the west bank. it also shows how the west bank is surrounded by israeli control, limiting their access to the outside world.

did you even look at these maps?

[Bonam]

Foundation for Middle East Peace is not a 'palestinian learning group'.

Palestinian-leaning, not "palestinian learning". It's not extremely biased, like some of the sites you've linked to in the past, but it is not perfectly neutral, and it is certainly not pro-Israeli.

the 3rd map is not from camp david

Indeed, it represents a different Israeli offer. The offers have been hashed and rehashed many times, not only at Camp David, and have been rejected by the Palestinians at every turn, as I have already mentioned before.

and the 2nd link to the camp david map shows the same israeli controlled highways that has already been discussed which create cantons in the west bank.

No, it shows the West Bank as one contiguous territory. Are you so far biased and indoctrinated that you can't even accept what you see in a picture? The territory gets relatively thin in a few places, but it is most definitely one solid territory uninterrupted by Israeli areas.

it also shows how the west bank is surrounded by israeli control, limiting their access to the outside world.

As is clearly labeled in the legend, the Israeli security zone between Jordan and the West Bank was to be temporary.

Edited July 3, 2009 by Bonam

[dub]

Palestinian-leaning, not "palestinian learning". It's not extremely biased, like some of the sites you've linked to in the past, but it is not perfectly neutral, and it is certainly not pro-Israeli.

i'm not sure why you keep saying palestinian-learning like it has some significant meaning. the foundation was created to promote "a just solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict that brings peace and security to both peoples."

Indeed, it represents a different Israeli offer. The offers have been hashed and rehashed many times, not only at Camp David, and have been rejected by the Palestinians at every turn, as I have already mentioned before.

there have been some variations of proposals. many have been offered by the arab league and the latest one seems be one that the EU and obama endorse.

No, it shows the West Bank as one contiguous territory. Are you so far biased and indoctrinated that you can't even accept what you see in a picture? The territory gets relatively thin in a few places, but it is most definitely one solid territory uninterrupted by Israeli areas.

no it doesn't. this is from the same site and it shows what the israelis offered: http://www.fmep.org/maps/redeployment-fina...view_fullscreen

i don't mind that you're wrong. i just hope that you're learning something here.

[Bonam]

i'm not sure why you keep saying palestinian-learning

The same typo twice in a row? Perhaps you should put some more time and thought into your posts?

many have been offered by the arab league and the latest one seems be one that the EU and obama endorse.

Most Arab league proposals have included a right of return for the descendants of all Arabs displaced from 1948, who now number in the millions, to Israel. That makes them non-proposals, just as realistic as if Israel offered a "proposal" that gave the Palestinians absolutely nothing at all.

no it doesn't. this is from the same site and it shows what the israelis offered: http://www.fmep.org/maps/redeployment-fina...view_fullscreen

Umm yah, want to take a look at the date? That's May. That was an early, unrealistic offer, so they would have a place to start bargaining down from. Just like in every negotiation, both sides start with a deal far more advantageous to themselves, and then negotiate towards an eventual common ground. Ever haggled with anyone over the cost of something? The map I posted was from December of the same year, and was closer to the final offer.

i don't mind that you're wrong. i just hope that you're learning something here.

I'm learning which aspects of history anti-Israeli propagandists like to twist, and doing a bit of research to find refuting evidence. So yes, I'm learning something. Thanks for the education.

Edited July 3, 2009 by Bonam

[KrustyKidd]

the declaration of independence makes no mention of accepting the borders of the partition plan. stop trying to spread misinformation.

Reads it in context sometime Dub. As usual, you fall short in research. (Italics mine)

On the 29th November, 1947, the United Nations General Assembly passed a resolution calling for the establishment of a Jewish State in Eretz-Israel; the General Assembly required the inhabitants of Eretz-Israel to take such steps as were necessary on their part for the implementation of that resolution. One of those steps would be living within the boundaries set forthThis recognition by the United Nations of the right of the Jewish people to establish their State is irrevocable.

This right is the natural right of the Jewish people to be masters of their own fate, like all other nations, in their own sovereign State.

Accordingly we, members of the People's Council, representatives of the Jewish Community of Eretz-Israel and of the Zionist Movement, are here assembled on the day of the termination of the British Mandate over Eretz-Israel and, by virtue of our natural and historic right and on the strength of the resolution of the United Nations General Assembly, hereby declare the establishment of a Jewish state in Eretz-Israel, to be known as the State of Israel.

Sure sounds like the Israeli people as a complete society accepted the resolution in it's entirety, borders included despite what bigoted Jew haters say sixty years later with selective quotes from former politicians .

Now, some peace sites from the Palestinians please.

[jbg]

Now, some peace sites from the Palestinians please.

In the same category as advice for males as to how to handle their own pregnancies.

[DogOnPorch]

Krusty: Toothpicks are straight.

dub: I've seen curved ones.

Krusty: I have too but generally they are straight.

dub: A friend of mine had a box of curved ones.

Krusty: But...more or less....they are straight 99 times out of 100. Right?

dub: I know a factory that makes curved ones.

Krusty: That's crazy. OK...can I see the factory?

dub: Everyone has heard of this factory so there's no need to show you.

etc, etc...

[dub]

Reads it in context sometime Dub. As usual, you fall short in research. (Italics mine)

Sure sounds like the Israeli people as a complete society accepted the resolution in it's entirety, borders included despite what bigoted Jew haters say sixty years later with selective quotes from former politicians .

Now, some peace sites from the Palestinians please.

lol @ you adding the bit about 'living within the boundaries'.

here is the end of the declaration and signed by the main leader:

PLACING OUR TRUST IN THE "ROCK OF ISRAEL", WE AFFIX OUR SIGNATURES TO THIS PROCLAMATION AT THIS SESSION OF THE PROVISIONAL COUNCIL OF STATE, ON THE SOIL OF THE HOMELAND, IN THE CITY OF TEL-AVIV, ON THIS SABBATH EVE, THE 5TH DAY OF IYAR, 5708 (14TH MAY,1948).

David Ben-Gurion

good thing the declaration did not specify the borders in the UN resolution because, as it has already been mentioned by himself, David Ben-Gurion didn't really accept the borders.

this is basically your word against ben-gurion.

[KrustyKidd]

lol @ you adding the bit about 'living within the boundaries'.

I stated the italics were mine. In any case, it states;

the General Assembly required the inhabitants of Eretz-Israel to take such steps as were necessary on their part for the implementation of that resolution.

The steps include living within certain boundaries. And, they agree to that here;

THE STATE OF ISRAEL is prepared to cooperate with the agencies and representatives of the United Nations in implementing the resolution of the General Assembly of the 29th November, 1947, and will take steps to bring about the economic union of the whole of Eretz-Israel.

So, they state that whatever the UN says shall be done which once again is adhering to boundaries.

here is the end of the declaration and signed by the main leader:

PLACING OUR TRUST IN THE "ROCK OF ISRAEL", WE AFFIX OUR SIGNATURES TO THIS PROCLAMATION AT THIS SESSION OF THE PROVISIONAL COUNCIL OF STATE, ON THE SOIL OF THE HOMELAND, IN THE CITY OF TEL-AVIV, ON THIS SABBATH EVE, THE 5TH DAY OF IYAR, 5708 (14TH MAY,1948).

David Ben-Gurion

You forgot to mention these people who also represent the entire state of Israel;

Daniel Auster

Mordekhai Bentov

Yitzchak Ben Zvi

Eliyahu Berligne

Fritz Bernstein

Rabbi Wolf Gold

Meir Grabovsky

Yitzchak Gruenbaum

Dr. Abraham Granovsky

Eliyahu Dobkin

Meir Wilner-Kovner

Zerach Wahrhaftig

Herzl Vardi Rachel Cohen

Rabbi Kalman Kahana

Saadia Kobashi

Rabbi Yitzchak Meir Levin

Meir David Loewenstein

Zvi Luria

Golda Myerson

Nachum Nir

Zvi Segal

Rabbi Yehuda Leib Hacohen Fishman

David Zvi Pinkas

Aharon Zisling

Moshe Kolodny

Eliezer Kaplan

Abraham Katznelson

Felix Rosenblueth

David Remez

Berl Repetur

Mordekhai Shattner

Ben Zion Sternberg

Bekhor Shitreet

Moshe Shapira

Moshe Shertok

good thing the declaration did not specify the borders in the UN resolution because, as it has already been mentioned by himself, David Ben-Gurion didn't really accept the borders.

No Dub, it's written in black and white in the declaration. If you are expecting them, sixty years ago, to write something in the exact terminology so that moron Jew haters can make a loser argument based on syntax and, in a language foreign to the original document then you are intellectually lacking.

Essentially saying that they are founding their country based on the resolution and, are prepared to do whatever it takes to adhere to it I believe is accepting it.

this is basically your word against ben-gurion.

How so? By signing Israel's most formal and official political document which says they accept the resolution and are prepared to cooperate with the agencies and representatives of the United Nations in implementing the resolution of the General Assembly of the 29th November, 1947 (which by the way was the passing of the resolution) which includes boundaries, he is officially agreeing with me and telling you you are wrong.

[dub]

I stated the italics were mine. In any case, it states;

The steps include living within certain boundaries. And, they agree to that here;

So, they state that whatever the UN says shall be done which once again is adhering to boundaries.

You forgot to mention these people who also represent the entire state of Israel;

No Dub, it's written in black and white in the declaration. If you are expecting them, sixty years ago, to write something in the exact terminology so that moron Jew haters can make a loser argument based on syntax and, in a language foreign to the original document then you are intellectually lacking.

Essentially saying that they are founding their country based on the resolution and, are prepared to do whatever it takes to adhere to it I believe is accepting it.

How so? By signing Israel's most formal and official political document which says they accept the resolution and are prepared to cooperate with the agencies and representatives of the United Nations in implementing the resolution of the General Assembly of the 29th November, 1947 (which by the way was the passing of the resolution) which includes boundaries, he is officially agreeing with me and telling you you are wrong.

the declaration was signed by ben-gurion first and foremost. the rest of the people were spaced separately because ben-gurion was seen as the leader.

this same leader has mentioned that they didn't really care for the borders and the plan was 'greater israel' as it has always been.

[KrustyKidd]

the declaration was signed by ben-gurion first and foremost. the rest of the people were spaced separately because ben-gurion was seen as the leader.

this same leader has mentioned that they didn't really care for the borders and the plan was 'greater israel' as it has always been.

And, as Israel is a democracy and if he did not adhere to those words, he would have been impeached and thrown out of power. Might work in a dictatorship but not there. Nice try though.

You really have us all in stitches as you wiggle around this one. I suppose next it will be what ink was used or who signed with which hand?

[dub]

And, as Israel is a democracy and if he did not adhere to those words, he would have been impeached and thrown out of power. Might work in a dictatorship but not there. Nice try though.

You really have us all in stitches as you wiggle around this one. I suppose next it will be what ink was used or who signed with which hand?

ben gurion never accepted the borders of the partition. not only ben gurion, but also the other jewish leaders. they all knew that this was a ticket to create a palestinian state with the opportunity to expand the borders.

that's what they've done since.

it's too bad that facts and history and what is happening today trumps all the babbling that you do.

[KrustyKidd]

ben gurion never accepted the borders of the partition. not only ben gurion, but also the other jewish leaders. they all knew that this was a ticket to create a palestinian state with the opportunity to expand the borders.

that's what they've done since.

it's too bad that facts and history and what is happening today trumps all the babbling that you do.

Well, today was not 1948 as they were attacked as soon as they signed that paper wern't they?

Only an idiot and, a bigoted racist one at that, could refute the declaration of independence of a state as being a lie.

If that shoe fits, you certainly look good in it.

Dub = reality challenged.

[dub]

Well, today was not 1948 as they were attacked as soon as they signed that paper wern't they?

Only an idiot and, a bigoted racist one at that, could refute the declaration of independence of a state as being a lie.

If that shoe fits, you certainly look good in it.

Dub = reality challenged.

krusty says one thing, ben gurion says another:

"No Zionist can forgo the smallest portion of the Land Of Israel. A Jewish state in part of Palestine is not an end, but a beginning ..... Our possession is important not only for itself ... through this we increase our power, and every increase in power facilitates getting hold of the country in its entirety. Establishing a small state .... will serve as a very potent lever in our historical effort to redeem the whole country." (Righteous Victims, p. 138)

[KrustyKidd]

krusty says one thing, ben gurion says another:

"No Zionist can forgo the smallest portion of the Land Of Israel. A Jewish state in part of Palestine is not an end, but a beginning ..... Our possession is important not only for itself ... through this we increase our power, and every increase in power facilitates getting hold of the country in its entirety. Establishing a small state .... will serve as a very potent lever in our historical effort to redeem the whole country." (Righteous Victims, p. 138)

And the people of Israel spell it out for you in the declaration.

[jbg]

And the people of Israel spell it out for you in the declaration.

It's hard to listen to a broken record; or for that matter argue with one.

[KrustyKidd]

It's hard to listen to a broken record; or for that matter argue with one.

No kidding.

Dub

good thing the declaration did not specify the borders in the UN resolution because, as it has already been mentioned by himself, David Ben-Gurion didn't really accept the borders.

Sure he did and, on a few occasions both in writing and in speeches.

Ben Gurion

We shall accept a state in the boundaries fixed today, but the boundaries of Zionist aspirations are the concern of the Jewish people and no external factor will be able to limit them.

Ben Gurion

We accepted the UN resolution, but the Arabs did not.

Ben Gurion (Spending 15 minutes reading aloud the declaration of Independence 15 May 1948)

the General Assembly required the inhabitants of Eretz-Israel to take such steps as were necessary on their part for the implementation of that resolution.

THE STATE OF ISRAEL is prepared to cooperate with the agencies and representatives of the United Nations in implementing the resolution of the General Assembly of the 29th November, 1947, and will take steps to bring about the economic union of the whole of Eretz-Israel.

[jbg]

krusty says one thing, ben gurion says another:

"No Zionist can forgo the smallest portion of the Land Of Israel. A Jewish state in part of Palestine is not an end, but a beginning ..... Our possession is important not only for itself ... through this we increase our power, and every increase in power facilitates getting hold of the country in its entirety. Establishing a small state .... will serve as a very potent lever in our historical effort to redeem the whole country." (Righteous Victims, p. 138)

Ben Gurion did not set Israel on a course to invade seven Arab countries on May 15, 1948.

[KrustyKidd]

Ben Gurion did not set Israel on a course to invade seven Arab countries on May 15, 1948.

And nor did he, or Israel break the Armistice time and time again.

[Sulaco]

it's too bad that the government has nothing to do with that organization. that's a non-governmental organization and there are many other amazing israeli organizations and israeli people. you'd be surprised how many israelis are against their government's policies and actions towards the palestinians.

here are some more:

http://www.btselem.org

http://www.seruv.org.il/english/default.asp

http://www.gisha.org/

http://www.batshalom.org

http://www.adalah.org/eng/index.php

http://www.gush-shalom.org

http://www.icahd.org

http://www.machsomwatch.org

http://www.phr.org.il/phr/

http://rhr.israel.net

http://refusersolidarity.org

www.whoprofits.org

http://www.yesh-din.org/site/index.php?pag...lang=en&id=

http://www.yeshgvul.org/index_e.asp

it's too bad the israeli government is controlled by religious zealots and zionists who hardly ever see eye to eye with these organizations.

Why would DoP be surprised. As far as I can tell he does not paint Jews as a monolithic whole. The surprise can only come from someone like you.

[dub]

Why would DoP be surprised. As far as I can tell he does not paint Jews as a monolithic whole. The surprise can only come from someone like you.

what are you babbling about?

DoP tried to use a link to an organization that has helped palestinians. i told him that the organization is not funded by the israeli government. that it's funded privately by israelis and jews who are not intoxicated by nationalism. nationalism that has left a group of people living in despair for decades.

[dub]

Ben Gurion did not set Israel on a course to invade seven Arab countries on May 15, 1948.

ben gurion did set israel on a course to achieve 'greater israel'.