Navy waters down plans for Arctic patrol ships

[Smallc]

We also have to be realistic. We already spend over $20B a year, and with other budget constraints on the horizon, we have to be good monetary managers. I want the ships, we'll get some type of ships, but we'll have to wait.

[Bonam]

As long as you pay for it.

I certainly would prefer that my tax dollars be spent on a strengthened military and associated industrial complex than on certain social programs that I consider superfluous and in fact harmful to our society. So sure, I'll certainly pay my share of it.

[Bonam]

We also have to be realistic. We already spend over $20B a year, and with other budget constraints on the horizon, we have to be good monetary managers. I want the ships, we'll get some type of ships, but we'll have to wait.

We spend $20B/year, out of a GDP of $1.27T. That's 1.6% of GDP. The US spends $515B/year out of a $13.8T GPD, which is 3.7% of GDP. Our economy is stronger than theirs. We could be spending substantially more on our military, probably closer to $100B/year, and it would actually stimulate our economy by creating millions of new jobs, in everything from the service itself to the supporting industry, to R&D.

Edited June 20, 2009 by Bonam

[Jerry J. Fortin]

We spend $20B/year, out of a GDP of $1.27T. That's 1.6% of GDP. The US spends $515B/year out of a $13.8T GPD, which is 3.7% of GDP. Our economy is stronger than theirs. We could be spending substantially more on our military, probably closer to $100B/year, and it would actually stimulate our economy by creating millions of new jobs, in everything from the service itself to the supporting industry, to R&D.

You forget we no longer have a military industrial complex. We can still do small ships, but nothing else. We buy everything from other nations.

[Bonam]

We don't have one, now, because we don't invest enough, and don't have policies in place that would stimulate the emergence of one. We could quickly establish a military-industrial complex if military spending was increased, as I propose, and made it a requirement for national security that equipment developed for our military could only come from Canadian companies with employees that are Canadian citizens, just as the US does with all of its major defense contractors.

[Smallc]

We spend $20B/year, out of a GDP of $1.27T. That's 1.6% of GDP. The US spends $515B/year out of a $13.8T GPD, which is 3.7% of GDP. Our economy is stronger than theirs. We could be spending substantially more on our military, probably closer to $100B/year, and it would actually stimulate our economy by creating millions of new jobs, in everything from the service itself to the supporting industry, to R&D.

I don't see any evidence that we could be spending what you say. First of all, the US is an oddity when it comes to spending. We would have to devote half of our federal budget to match them...like I said, as long as you're willing to pay for it...I don't think that most Canadians would enjoy an $80B tax increase.

BTW, we only spend 1.3% of GDP....$20B US by the last NATO count (the DND budget doesn't show that number because large purchases are separate from the normal budget).

[Smallc]

I certainly would prefer that my tax dollars be spent on a strengthened military and associated industrial complex than on certain social programs that I consider superfluous and in fact harmful to our society. So sure, I'll certainly pay my share of it.

Ok...now you just have to convince enough other people...good luck with that.

[Bonam]

As I said above, such military spending is of course far outside of the political reality in Canada. But that doesn't stop me from being able to think that it would be a better investment, and it doesn't stop me from being able to post such thoughts on this board. Just because the majority of Canadians place a greater priority on EI, welfare, etc, doesn't mean that they are right, or that the point cannot be debated.

[Smallc]

The point is free to be debated....and I'm debating it by bringing up reality. It doesn't make your point any less valid.

Edited June 20, 2009 by Smallc

[Jerry J. Fortin]

The point is free to be debated....and I'm debating it by brining up reality. It doesn't make your point any less valid.

Reality?

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2009/02/27/...overeignty.html

Yeah I know its only the CBC, but read it anyway.

[Smallc]

Yes, I'm quite aware of that reality....but we're not going to win a sea, air, or land battle with Russia. We need to improve the capabilities of the navy(the damned ships...if and when we get them), airforce (the SAR aircraft...if and when we get them, will help this as will the new C130j and the updated Aurora), and army (there has been work done here and there is a reserve unit being opened in Yellowknife) (and Coast Guard, we already have the second largest icebreaker fleet in the world...and we need to make sure it stays that way. The Diefenbaker needs to get built, but so do other replacement ships) to work in the arctic, and it seems that we are, but we can't beat Russia at their own game.

Because we live in the world today, the thing we have to do is recruit allies in Europe....they are the ones we have the most in common with on this issue. This battle will be won with token sovereignty and diplomacy. The work that we are doing with the coast guard and the mapping and environmental work is certainly a start in that as is the massive social housing project in the stimulus package. We are proving that the land is ours and that we can use it...we simply have to move a bit faster...and it seems that instead we're moving slower.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Are you aware of the value of resources being found in the Arctic? Have you any idea of the impact those resources will have to Russia and everyone else involved in the Arctic?

Read this;

http://news.thomasnet.com/IMT/archives/200...the_ocea_1.html

This is only the tip of the iceberg, there are heavy metals and precious gems along with all the hydrocarbons that has everyones attention.

[Smallc]

I'm quite aware of all of that, but it doesn't change anything. We are not going to beat the Russians...so we have to find allies and outmaneuver them. It's that simple.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

I'm quite aware of all of that, but it doesn't change anything. We are not going to beat the Russians...so we have to find allies and outmaneuver them. It's that simple.

Beating the Russians is the last thing we should be doing! They are natural allies and neighbors, and we should have closer relations with them. You need to do some serious outside of the box thinking dude. Look at our Arctic neighbors and our combined capacities/resources now tell me what you see. We have the potential to do some real good if people could just stop their nationalistic approaches and see what is plainly right in front of them.

I don't think that trying to outmaneuver them is the right path, becoming Arctic partners makes far more sense to me. We have much to gain from such an association, in fact it would even help us with North American relations.

[Smallc]

Russia is not our friend. They arr not an ally. They are silent when it is convenient for them and they try to provoke us when it isn't. They are the last people that we should work closer with and trust.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Russia is not our friend. They arr not an ally. They are silent when it is convenient for them and they try to provoke us when it isn't. They are the last people that we should work closer with and trust.

You trust the Americans? You trust the British?

[Argus]

Beating the Russians is the last thing we should be doing! They are natural allies and neighbors, and we should have closer relations with them.

I completely disagree. You cannot have agreements with people who do not uphold agreements. And if there is one thing which Putin and his Russia have demonstrated over the past decade, it is that legal agreements mean absolutely nothing to them. Russia is a completely lawless land run by a completely corrupt thugocracy whose only purpose is self-enrichment. Trying to make an agreement with Putin is like trying to sign a deal with the mafia - except the mafia has more honour than Putin and are more likely to live up to their end of the bargain.

I don't think that trying to outmaneuver them is the right path, becoming Arctic partners makes far more sense to me.

All sorts of huge entities have involved themselves in partnerships with the Russians over the past decade. Almost all have discovered, to their sorrow, that once the Russians feel they're no longer needed, the Russians simply take what they want.

The only purpose the Russians would see in a "partnership" with Canada is lending moral weight to their arguments. Once their ownership had been established they would simply bully us out, as they have always done in the past to previous partners.

A more sensible scenario has us establishing our presence in the north and establish partnerships with the US to add military weight to our moral position.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

I completely disagree. You cannot have agreements with people who do not uphold agreements. And if there is one thing which Putin and his Russia have demonstrated over the past decade, it is that legal agreements mean absolutely nothing to them. Russia is a completely lawless land run by a completely corrupt thugocracy whose only purpose is self-enrichment. Trying to make an agreement with Putin is like trying to sign a deal with the mafia - except the mafia has more honour than Putin and are more likely to live up to their end of the bargain.

All sorts of huge entities have involved themselves in partnerships with the Russians over the past decade. Almost all have discovered, to their sorrow, that once the Russians feel they're no longer needed, the Russians simply take what they want.

The only purpose the Russians would see in a "partnership" with Canada is lending moral weight to their arguments. Once their ownership had been established they would simply bully us out, as they have always done in the past to previous partners.

A more sensible scenario has us establishing our presence in the north and establish partnerships with the US to add military weight to our moral position.

Really? So in your view does this mean that the United States is untrustworthy in the light of their continued infractions with respect to NAFTA?

[Argus]

Really? So in your view does this mean that the United States is untrustworthy in the light of their continued infractions with respect to NAFTA?

The US can eventually be compelled to live up to most such agreements, and there are limits beyond which the US will generally not go. But the US has an independent court system and the Russians do not. The US government is answerable to public opinion and the Russian government is not. And the Russian government is utterly corrupt from top to bottom and has no compunction about throwing elbows into people's faces if it serves their needs.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

The US can eventually be compelled to live up to most such agreements, and there are limits beyond which the US will generally not go. But the US has an independent court system and the Russians do not. The US government is answerable to public opinion and the Russian government is not. And the Russian government is utterly corrupt from top to bottom and has no compunction about throwing elbows into people's faces if it serves their needs.

All true! My point was that USA did violate NAFTA. A legal agreement beyond contest, and they did it knowingly with intent. They subverted the intent of the agreement and still do.

Russia like China needs to be reigned in. Unlike China, they are our neighbors. Russia has incredible potential, as do we. In a long term vision of things it would be to our advantage to work with both of these nations if for no other reason than to break free of our bonds with the USA. Don't get me wrong here, I both like and admire the American people, I hold their nation in great respect. However I value my own nation as well and they have and will continue to take advantage of us until such time as we gain a measure of economic independence from them. After that happens I would recommend actually strengthening our ties to them, but for now we need to get our own act together and do something on our own for our own benefit.

[Sabre Rider]

Russia is not our friend. They arr not an ally. They are silent when it is convenient for them and they try to provoke us when it isn't. They are the last people that we should work closer with and trust.

That may well be so, however have you ever stopped to ask the question why it is so? Lets face it, for the past 60 years our approach to Russia and the former Soviet Union has been them or us with little to no middle ground for compromise. No doubt as we currently view them, they view us likewise. Personally I feel we blew a golden opportunity first with Gorbachev and later Yeltsin. Had we played it right, we most likely would not have to be playing hard ball with hard core Russian Nationalist such as Putin and now Medvedev.

As for Northern Sovereignty, the old argument of use it or lose it still applies. And it's not just the evil Russians we have to worry about but also our so-called friends, allies and neighbours such as the US, Norway and others. The US is the most vocal when it comes to making the North West Passage an international and open waterway, meaning they have the right to defend or even claim it if and when it suits their purposes. Also, by have the North West Passage designated as an International Waterway opens it up to exploitation to all comers, regardless about what we Canadians think or feel. That the North West Passage cuts right through the middle of Canada's Arctic Territories is neither here nor there as far as the US and Russia are concerned.

Canada's true wealth has always be in the Northern hinterlands and yet most of us live no more then 200 miles from the Canada/US border. To truly exert our sovereignty of the north, we need to approach it on many fronts. And while defense of the north is a key element it is truly secondary to opening up and developing the north. This mean Canadians not only have to invest capital into said development, but also must be willing to relocate there and work those developments. If we don't, others will and to them will go the spoils.

But sadly, we aren't doing any of this, in fact we are busy stripping the North of the means to exploit its resources and providing well paying employment to its people along with cutting the tax dollars said development and employment brings to all levels of government. As we speak, there is a very large and modern mill in Fort Nelson BC that is currently under negotiations for sale to Russia. Think about it. Fort Nelson is in the North East corner of BC, a modern mill that directly and indirectly employed hundreds of people in the region is going to be sold, dismantled, and shipped overseas to our biggest competitor in the North. Sure the owners of said mill will pocket a nice bit of change and their shareholders will get a nice little dividend, but at the cost of cutting our own throats.

I have always despaired, that Canada is the one global economic superpower that never was. Not because we lack resources, not because we lack the means of production, not because we lack markets, not because we lack talent but because we are far too complacent, far too self-effacing, far too fearful of risk and dare I say it, far too lazy.

But this has not always been so. During the second world war, the Americans proudly proclaimed that they were the arsenal of democracy, however it is a fact that Canada and Canadian Industry out produced the US on a per capita basis. Meaning while the US produced more war materials over all, Canada produced more per unit of production and dollar spent. After the war, the RCAF sent out flights of Lancasters and Mosquito's to map out the North, even then they knew how important that barren landscape was. During the early fifties, Avro Canada developed and built the worlds second jet passenger liner, which flew only a couple of weeks after the de Havilland Comet, this at a time when the US based Boeing, Martin and Lockheed were still trying to perfect large piston powered airliners. And let's not forget about the Avro Arrow, an aircraft who's performance spec's and technology still rivals those of todays modern 3rd and 3.5 generation fighters. In the past, Canada and Canadians have amply demonstrated to the world that we are a people to be reckoned with and we have the know how, the ability and the stomach to get things done.

But alas, all that has seemed to have changed and not for the better. I place the blame of starting this hideous trend squarely with PM John Diefenbaker. It was his government that put the boots to Canada's blossoming aerospace industry and started the brain drain of Canadian talent to the US and and other parts of the world. And each government, be they Liberal or Conservative including Harpers, have in turn hammered yet another nail into the coffin of Canadian pride and drive. We have become a nation of sheep, there is no other way of putting it. We bleat and bleat how hard done by we are, how hard it is to get a head, how the government is either not doing enough or is doing too much. And yet we do not put either our money or our labour into measures that would benefit us all as a nation and a people.

So my friends, if you want to protect and defend our Northern Sovereignty and to become a major and respective player on the world stage, its time to put your money and your labour on the line. Demand that the government start investing in the north, demand that Canadian companies get first crack at said development, be prepared to move there yourself and put in your own effort and capital. Demand that all branches of the Armed Forces along with the civilian Coast Guard have all the resources they require to protect and defend the north. Be willing to accept paying the cost for such action and consider it to be a long term investment that while costing a small fortune at first, will bring a large fortune in the future. If not, then stop whining and crying about it and don't even think to complain when the spoils of our Northern Territories fall into the hands of the Americans, the Russians, the Chinese or even the Norwegians. It's up to us to protect and develop our Northern Territories and its resources, no one else.

[Sabre Rider]

You forget we no longer have a military industrial complex. We can still do small ships, but nothing else. We buy everything from other nations.

This is not strictly true. Canada does have a viable and active military industrial complex. Even the much vaunted American M1A1 Abrams tank has Canadian developed, designed and built components in its fire control system. The US Styker Platform is based on the Canadian LAV III platform. And while we currently do not build or design any combat fighter-bombers any more, thanks to the deal Dief the Chief signed with the Americans after killing off the Arrow programme, our aero-space industry does maintain and rebuild our fleet of CF-18's from the ground up. And if I am not mistaken, we have built CF-5's under license in the past. It would not be that great of a jump from building combat aircraft under license to designing and building our own aircraft, of course it would mean telling the US to take the deal Dief signed off on and wipe their arses with it.

As for ships, true we have not built any large warships in ages, but that is not to say we couldn't. We have both the technological know how and the ship yards to build any type of ship we wished, be it a super carrier, a nuclear powered sub or a rowboat. When the Halifax Frigates came out, they really put the wind up the US Naval Industrial establishment. The Canadian designed and built fire control systems on those Frigates rivaled that of the US Aegis Class and was seen as a direct threat to US sales of said systems. Fortunately as far as the Americans were concerned, Canada did not push their system on to the worlds naval markets, another lost opportunity for Canadian technology and business.

And all those quiet and empty car manufacturing plants in Ontario. Well, it wouldn't take much to reconfigure some of them to produce MBT's, AFV's, APC's, and other munch needed military vehicles. And if even Israel can design and build a world class MBT, then so can Canada.

Canada does have all the frameworks required to build our own home designed and manufactured military equipment, purposely built to meet our own unique requirements and specifications. However, all this requires a huge investment both in capital and political will. And sadly, I don't see the average Canadian having the will or the willingness to invest in such things.

[Smallc]

We can't trust Russia. There is no other way to say it. We can work with them, we can partner with them, but we can't trust them.

[Sabre Rider]

We can't trust Russia. There is no other way to say it. We can work with them, we can partner with them, but we can't trust them.

And they cannot trust us either. Let's be honest here, trust is an extremely rare if mythical commodity when it comes to international relations and dealings. Personally I trust the Russians about the same amount as I do the Americans, the Japanese, the Chinese or even my mother countrymen, the English. Every nation acts and deals in a manner which they feel benefits them the most, and if that benefit comes at the expense of another nation, so be it.

America is said to be our best friend and largest trading partner and even so they have broken the NAFTA treaty far too often to count. America will honour the treaty but only as long as it benefits them, otherwise forget it. Remember the soft wood lumber issue?

[bush_cheney2004]

All true! My point was that USA did violate NAFTA. A legal agreement beyond contest, and they did it knowingly with intent. They subverted the intent of the agreement and still do.

Absolutely true, as did Canada on several occasions, for NAFTA and other international trade agreements for dairy, wheat, aviation parts, etc. Canada can only leverage their strengths, not moral sanctimony.

The Americans will not dismiss nationalism just because Canada is in a weaker position and/or has a much looser confederation of quarreling provinces and territories.