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When domestic terrorism succeeds!


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That's right...liberty for us...not them, silly! Just ask Robert Dziekanski....oh wait...he's dead.

And yet it's their "liberty" that we ostensibly come to love so much, even to the point of what would appear to bystander as an obsession. As as obsessions go, more often than not fotgetting to ask whether the feeling is mutual.

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And yet it's their "liberty" that we ostensibly come to love so much, even to the point of what would appear to bystander as an obsession. As as obsessions go, more often than not fotgetting to ask whether the feeling is mutual.

Good salespeople don't care about such things....they are selling the sizzle, not the steak.

Always read the fine print.....

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Indeed, some (many) of us seem to be unsure whether a sane grown up person should be allowed a full and unrestricted control of their own body.

Since there are very few issues that allow complete, unrestricted personal freedom, I suppose there are situations where access to late term abortions should be ruled out. The "pro life" advocates are remarkably silent about the likely no.1 motivation for third trimester abortions in China, India and many other Third World countries -- sex selection of male offspring -- which has led to unhealthy population demographic problems.

If this issue is reduced to competing rights of a fetus vs. a woman who is serving as the host to her offspring, the pro choice side has not been making a strong enough case for the latter -- which should be self-evident, since protecting the life of a fetus cannot be done without disregarding the desires of the pregnant woman. The pro choice advocates really need to bring the issue of a woman's autonomy over her own body back to the forefront.

Yet we're much less confused about going into strange remote lands and intstructing them, oftentime by force, on the process to create their government. Go figure us out!

Most Americans and Canadians are totally oblivious to way virtual gunboat diplomacy is applied in Latin America and Asia. Despotic dictators are installed and propped up by the CIA, as long as they do the bidding of multinational corporations operating in their countries, and allow the IMF and World Bank to control economic policy. Then Americans watching the nightly news are flummoxed and indignant when demonstrators vent their rage at America -- and just assume it's all about jealousy of the greatest nation on earth, rather than constant meddling in their internal affairs.

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... Then Americans watching the nightly news are flummoxed and indignant when demonstrators vent their rage at America -- and just assume it's all about jealousy of the greatest nation on earth, rather than constant meddling in their internal affairs.

But not the Canadians watching the news, right? After all, the Americans made them do it.

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Thanks for taking us back to the issue that inspired me to start this thread. The primary reason doctors don't want to get involved in abortions goes beyond whatever religious or philosophical reasons they may have, and straight to the campaign of domestic terrorism that uses confrontation, assaults, vandalism, death threats and the occasional murder to intimidate doctors and clinic workers (nurses and even security guards at clinics have been murdered) to instill a sense of fear to make the safe operation of an abortion clinic next to impossible.

I'm sure that many are intimidated, but this is found in many occupations. Still, many hold beliefs that are not consistent with your liberal blood lust for third-tri fetuses. They just won't do it, and you can't make them.

This is the strategy of terrorism afterall. All this time, you rightwing fanatics have tried to steer our attention outward at Muslim terrorist threats, when the gravest terrorist threats come from your friends in the white supremacist, anti-immigrant, anti-abortion, anti-homosexual, anti-semetic movements. Who would have thunk it!......except for the fact that the biggest terrorist attack on U.S. soil prior to 9/11 was carried out by a couple of guys spawned in the right wing militia movement.

Interesting....your country wasn't attacked at all...so what explains your nation's attention in far away places? This behaviour goes back to WW1.

And you demonstrate that the right wing has no actual respect for the law, and is willing to impose their will by any means necessary!

Yep...just like Malcolm X.

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Since there are very few issues that allow complete, unrestricted personal freedom,

I think one (sane and adult individual) has full, complete and unrestricted freedom over their own body. It may be one of the few exceptions where the statement should be absolute and unrestricted in any way. Before we understand that simple truth fully and completely, we better stay in figuring out our own affairs, rather than rush sorting out (and messing up) those of the others.

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I think one (sane and adult individual) has full, complete and unrestricted freedom over their own body.

Except that they don't.....the state will intervene to protect "sane" adults from themselves and others.

It may be one of the few exceptions where the statement should be absolute and unrestricted in any way. Before we understand that simple truth fully and completely, we better stay in figuring out our own affairs, rather than rush sorting out (and messing up) those of the others.

See above....your premise is false.

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I'm sure that many are intimidated, but this is found in many occupations. Still, many hold beliefs that are not consistent with your liberal blood lust for third-tri fetuses. They just won't do it, and you can't make them.

"Liberal bloodlust for third-tri fetuses!" If that isn't a lame attempt at blame-shifting, nothing is. Right wing authoritarians are using terrorist tactics of violence, fear of violence, and intimidation, to get what they have not been able to accomplish by either democratic or legal means; and no excuse that some medical students do not want to be involved in abortions, explains why there has been a steady drop in the number of trained medical professionals who can staff abortion clinics or perform these services in hospitals.

Have medical students really changed that much since the 70's? Or is it more likely that most do not want to face the constant assaults and potential dangers that are now involved in providing these services thanks to your fascist-conservative friends!

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22,000 children in Canada are waiting for families to adopt them. (according to June 2009 Reader's Digest)

Put your money where your mouths are, anti-choice folks! Adopt one or two of these post-fetal human beings!

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22,000 children in Canada are waiting for families to adopt them. (according to June 2009 Reader's Digest)

Put your money where your mouths are, anti-choice folks! Adopt one or two of these post-fetal human beings!

OR create a social program that trains people who have children - NOT to give them up - not to divorce - and not to disrespect life in general - before birth - during life and in old age. It's astounding that in the year 2009 - regarding the birth of Sarah Palins' grandchild that - we are so arcane - that we still use terms like "Gave birth out of wedlock" _ what kind of phoney Draconian crap is that? Giving birth is a blessing and a joy to the world - no matter how humans arrive - the fact that they are born and are here is wonderful - as for adopting - make having chidren a sacred thing again instead of a curse - and stop persecuting the poor for breeding. AND letting the rich buy their children - though expensive lawyer parasites.

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22,000 children in Canada are waiting for families to adopt them. (according to June 2009 Reader's Digest)

Put your money where your mouths are, anti-choice folks! Adopt one or two of these post-fetal human beings!

Good luck with that idea! The "Pro Life" movement is only concerned about the sanctity of life while it's in the womb; once the baby is born, they are not going to line up to adopt them, and they want cuts to all of the social programs put in place to help single mothers who have taken their advice and had the baby.......no sanctity for life after the baby is born, and that strange dichotomy shows what a fraud their expressed concern for life really is.

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....Have medical students really changed that much since the 70's? Or is it more likely that most do not want to face the constant assaults and potential dangers that are now involved in providing these services thanks to your fascist-conservative friends!

Your political desire for "services" is tempered by some practical realities for the people who would perform third-tri abortions, including legal statutes, skyrocketing malpractice insurance (it's a risky procedure), competing and far more rewarding specialties, and religious belief systems.

Just try to get one in Quebec..... :lol:

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Your political desire for "services" is tempered by some practical realities for the people who would perform third-tri abortions, including legal statutes, skyrocketing malpractice insurance (it's a risky procedure)

Really! Never let the facts get in the way of a good argument:

How safe is it to have an abortion?

The Women’s Med Center has a very low complication rate that is below 1%.

An abortion in the first trimester of pregnancy (first three months) is considered minor surgery. It does not involve any cutting or incision and the actual procedure takes about five minutes.

There are some risks with having an abortion, but the risks are less in the first three months of pregnancy. Sometimes an infection may occur. The chances of having an infection are 1 in 10,000 women. We provide you with medication and instructions to help you avoid infection.

Risk of internal damage to the uterus or other organs is 1 in 10,000 women. Our specially trained physicians are highly skilled and each has over 25 years experience in performing abortions.

Carrying a pregnancy to full term carries much higher risks for women under the age of 20. One (1) in every 400,000 women dies from an abortion whereas 12 out of 100,000 (48 times greater) die from carrying a pregnancy full term. If the pregnancy is continued, risk of injury or serious illness is 100 times greater than with an abortion.

http://www.womensmedcenter.com/faqs/default.asp

It's not a dangerous medical procedure, even in the later stages of development. The dangers come from the anti-abortion protesters.

Just try to get one in Quebec..... :lol:

We've already discussed Quebec previously, and it has no bearing on this issue....except that you see every issue, including abortion, as just another prop to make cheap shots at Canada, which I couldn't care less about, since I don't share your extreme feelings of national identity.

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...It's not a dangerous medical procedure, even in the later stages of development. The dangers come from the anti-abortion protesters.

Now you're a doctor too?

We've already discussed Quebec previously, and it has no bearing on this issue....except that you see every issue, including abortion, as just another prop to make cheap shots at Canada, which I couldn't care less about, since I don't share your extreme feelings of national identity.

It is particularly relevant, and I am going to keep kicking your ass with the fact that late term abortion is more readily available in the USA than in Quebec (and many other parts of Canada).

Access in rural and northern areas, and especially in New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, and Prince Edward Island (PEI), is often restricted by the lack of nearby facilities, requiring women to travel long distances (often at their own expense) to obtain an abortion. Some hospitals refuse to perform abortions on out-of-province patients, in contravention of the portability requirement of the Canada Health Act. This can be especially troublesome for women in PEI, where no facilities currently perform abortions.

A doctor's referral is not necessary, although an independent ultrasound usually needs to be done. The number of Canadian medical schools that give instruction in abortion procedures is decreasing, which could potentially create a shortfall in medical personnel skilled in this area.

Third-trimester abortions are not generally available. For instance, in Quebec, there is currently no doctor who will perform a third-term abortion unless the health of the woman is in great peril or there is a genetic disorder. Currently the province sends women who seek to have third-term abortions performed to the United States. Quebec is currently actively looking to hire a doctor to do third-term abortions, but has not been successful as of October 2004.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_C...roughout_Canada

Now it's your turn to resume cheap shots at the USA! :o

Edited by bush_cheney2004
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wow what a topic.... people are people no? we've known that even before a young man was nailed to a tree for saying, 'can't we all just get along?'

same problem... people should not have the right to control individual choices about ones life. in any case they will do it anyway as seen with teen sex so let people decide what is right, whatever they choose will tell us the more common choice, trick is, protest hunger! not aborting a human creation at its very start, any later then that and yes, its murder, let them live with it and peoples opinions of them.

there are too many humans anyway right? lets have a war! we could all use the money and space...

or maybe there's room for everyone! lets gorge ourselves to death! drowned in populous...

see how absurd it gets to sounding??? it is a subject not for moralists... even Nietzsche would be to tears.

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Now you're a doctor too?

No, but I can read and I'm not going to let you get away with your lies. Whether or not you are opposed to abortion, you don't get to make up stories about the medical risks. They can be shot down faster than claims that waterboarding isn't torture!

It is particularly relevant, and I am going to keep kicking your ass with the fact that late term abortion is more readily available in the USA than in Quebec (and many other parts of Canada).

And I've asked this before but again, if you are really "pro life," why would you be celebrating the fact that third trimester abortion is more readily available in some U.S. states than it is in some Canadian provinces? Your thinking confirms that fiscal conservatives and military hawks use these emotional issues to gain the support of low-income religious people who are in fact harmed by conservative economic policy.

Ignorance and repressive religious movements are harmful wherever they are at work -- whether it's in Canada, the United States, the Middle East or Europe for that matter. But, your reference does not mention the fact that Canada has roughly one tenth the population density as the U.S., so access to many other medical assistance besides abortion can be affected.

Now it's your turn to resume cheap shots at the USA! :o
I don't take any cheap shots at the United States! I criticize the things I believe need to be challenged. You are the one who sees Canada/U.S. relations, abortion, economic policies etc. as some kind of stupid game of rhetoric.
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No, but I can read and I'm not going to let you get away with your lies. Whether or not you are opposed to abortion, you don't get to make up stories about the medical risks. They can be shot down faster than claims that waterboarding isn't torture!

No they can't....there are medical risks associated with abortions, particularly third-tri and partial birth (as there are with childbirth). Any fool knows that....except you.

And I've asked this before but again, if you are really "pro life," why would you be celebrating the fact that third trimester abortion is more readily available in some U.S. states than it is in some Canadian provinces? Your thinking confirms that fiscal conservatives and military hawks use these emotional issues to gain the support of low-income religious people who are in fact harmed by conservative economic policy.

I am merely discrediting your position with respect to more limited access to such procedures in your own country, even as to whine about another nation with better access...amazing!

Ignorance and repressive religious movements are harmful wherever they are at work -- whether it's in Canada, the United States, the Middle East or Europe for that matter. But, your reference does not mention the fact that Canada has roughly one tenth the population density as the U.S., so access to many other medical assistance besides abortion can be affected.

Tough noogies...the topic is abortion..put up or shut up. Stop denying Canadians their "right" to free abortions on demand! :lol:

I don't take any cheap shots at the United States! I criticize the things I believe need to be challenged. You are the one who sees Canada/U.S. relations, abortion, economic policies etc. as some kind of stupid game of rhetoric.

Yep....it's just a game to me, but apparently you prefer the plays that transpire on my side of the field more than your own. So I am not permitted to "challenge" such things in Canada? Guess again....

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22,000 children in Canada are waiting for families to adopt them. (according to June 2009 Reader's Digest)

Link? There may be 22,000 children waiting to be adopted, but I bet you they're not babies. Older children are much more difficult to find families for. However, there's still a waiting list for newborn babies. So everyone remember, it's better to put your baby up for adoption then kill it. He/She will find a home.

Put your money where your mouths are, anti-choice folks! Adopt one or two of these post-fetal human beings!

It's irrelevant. One doesn't ignore science because of a willingness or lack of a desire to adopt. Science is science, and killing a third trimester unborn baby is still killing a third trimester unborn baby. You don't deprive people of human rights based on whether someone will adopt them or not. And you don't deprive people of human rights based on what kind of life they may or may not be born into. That's barbaric.

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Link?

Go buy the magazine at your local grocery store!! :rolleyes: Frig LOL

There may be 22,000 children waiting to be adopted, but I bet you they're not babies. Older children are much more difficult to find families for. However, there's still a waiting list for newborn babies. So everyone remember, it's better to put your baby up for adoption then kill it. He/She will find a home.

No, they are not babies. The article did point that out. Only about 1700 will be adopted and most of them will be infants. Older, non-aborted fetuses have a much harder time... less "cute" I guess.

If those who do not believe in abortion would at the very least prove what they have done for living breathing children, maybe their argument would stand.... but alas, they do not care about breathing children, only fetuses in wombs.

You can whine and cry all you want.. until you actually do something to help these "breathing" children, you have not a leg to stand on.

And wy haven't those older children been adopted? Are they not as "valuable" as fetuses or newborns? If there are so many people concerned about keeping fetuses safe, why not help post-fetal humans? Because YOU cannot be burdened, you want someone else to carry the burden.

Pfft.

Barbaric is forcing women into giving birth to children they do not want.

Your argument will go round and round forever....(meaning: anti-choice will never "win") or until North America finally becomes a completely facist continent. (Which the conservatives are working hard to achieve)

Cheers!

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No they can't....there are medical risks associated with abortions, particularly third-tri and partial birth (as there are with childbirth). Any fool knows that....except you.

It seems that any fool knows when to stop lying and trying to spin his way out of hole....except for you and Dick Cheney!

"medical risks associated with abortions".....there are medical risks with driving on the highway or popping viagra pills -- the question is what is the degree of risk, and the numbers show abortions, even in the third trimester, are actually much lower risk than trying to deliver a baby: death is 48 times more likely, and 100 times more likely to suffer injury or serious illness due to complications during childbirth than having an abortion. http://www.womensmedcenter.com/faqs/default.asp

I am merely discrediting your position with respect to more limited access to such procedures in your own country, even as to whine about another nation with better access...amazing!

And my focus has been on the issue of abortion and reproductive rights, not which country has better access. If anything the religious nutcase conservatives are hard at work in both countries, so we're both regressing backwards.

Yep....it's just a game to me, but apparently you prefer the plays that transpire on my side of the field more than your own. So I am not permitted to "challenge" such things in Canada? Guess again....

Every trend that starts in the U.S. finds its way to Canada, including the religious right and Republican-style conservatism, so we have good reasons to be watching what's going on in the U.S. But why are you so interested in Canada?

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.....there are medical risks

Good...this is progress....but you forgot to include the post abortion mental health risks as well.

And my focus has been on the issue of abortion and reproductive rights, not which country has better access. If anything the religious nutcase conservatives are hard at work in both countries, so we're both regressing backwards.

Apparently not.....without as many "nutcases", Canada has regressed further from a practical point of view (access).

Every trend that starts in the U.S. finds its way to Canada, including the religious right and Republican-style conservatism, so we have good reasons to be watching what's going on in the U.S. But why are you so interested in Canada?

If that is true, then you deserve such a fate. How pathetic......

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Not wanting to kill chidren and squander untapped human resourse has nothing to do with religion or the religious right - It has to do with good human survival and a high quality future - where people with gifts are aloud to land on the earth and contribute to a better world rather than having the landings of the angels aborted...yes - angels - in old orthodox Russian Christianity - up to the age of 7 years - children are considered of the angelic realm - and killing them is simply a very bad idea.

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Go buy the magazine at your local grocery store!! :rolleyes: Frig LOL

How about instead, you back up your argument with facts instead of hearsay.

No, they are not babies. The article did point that out.

So in otherwords, I'm right. And you misrepresented what the article consisted of during your previous post.

If those who do not believe in abortion would at the very least prove what they have done for living breathing children, maybe their argument would stand.... but alas, they do not care about breathing children, only fetuses in wombs.

I pay taxes, like the rest of pro-life supporters, for the education and care of babies and children. But again, you don't ignore scientific facts, and you don't deny human rights to human beings, based on what the level of adoption, or what kind of life they're born into. You're conflating two seperate issues, purposely.

You can whine and cry all you want.. until you actually do something to help these "breathing" children, you have not a leg to stand on.

Again, I could purposely do absolutely nothing to help "breathing" children (btw, third trimester babies breath in utero), it still has nothing to do with whether society should condone the killing of almost full-term babies. You continue to setup a false choice.

Because YOU cannot be burdened, you want someone else to carry the burden.

Preventing the killing of near full-term babies doesn't have anything to do with burdens. It has to do with right and wrong. This isn't immigration. There's no check list for someone in a government bureaucracy, checking off whether someone meets the qualifications to be born once they reach the third trimester.

Barbaric is forcing women into giving birth to children they do not want.

If a woman doesn't want to give birth, don't get pregnant, and use birth control. If that fails, make a decision before the third trimester. I don't think that's too much to ask. :rolleyes:

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No link for you! LOL

the magazine isn't expensive sheesh... it goes for about $3.50, surely you can afford it, after all you have not adopted any "AIR-breathing" children and have no burden on yourself at all!

Go ahead splurge a bit -- buy a Reader's Digest! You will love it, it's chock full of "I love America" and other "conservative bullshit" LOL

1,700 out of 22,000 will be adopted... (8%) ...will you step up to the plate and help these poor children? Or does your concern stop once they leave the womb?

How will YOU personally take care of all the children that you force to be born? Will you support them economically in any way? Will you make sure they are clothed, fed and educated?

Of course you won't! You just spout off at the mouth with no solutions in mind.

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