Official Languages

[CanadaRocks]

Thanks August, I read the article you provided and come to think of it have met some of our Newfoundlanders.

heh.. I like the flavor of their People, and after all its our primary language and I can understand them, so I share something with them, even if our dialect is a bit diff.

[Bro]

When English Canada finally has their language reduced to a language where it is used only as a necessity by all

new Canadians and Quebecers,maybe they will finally realize that they have been taken advantage of,at the cost of their own language and heritage.Is English Canada so blindly benevolent that losing their own identity,culture,and language,is second in importance to

the social manipulating done by the the liberals?

[August1991]

All positions in the federal public service where it is bilingual it is imperative ie if you fail then bye bye no joke and it is a fact

I'll believe it when I see the hundreds of ADMs in their 30s without a job. No, we're talking golden hand shake and so on.

But that's not my point. The story in Ottawa is told in English, and French-speakers are out of the loop.

Chretien himself loved to repeat the anecdote (foolish in my mind - but English Canada lapped it up - he never told it to a French Canada audience) of sitting through an important meeting as a young MP and having Mitch Sharp turn and say, "Jean, this is all secret national information. Don't repeat anything." An older Chretien would pause and then deliver the line (in English), "I told Mr. Sharp that there was no danger for Canada because I understood nothing."

Senior unilingual francophone civil servants in Ottawa simply don't exist. À Québec, il y en a.

[Common Sense]

When English Canada finally has their language reduced to a language where it is used only as a necessity by all

new Canadians and Quebecers,maybe they will finally realize that they have been taken advantage of,at the cost of their own language and heritage.Is English Canada so blindly benevolent that losing their own identity,culture,and language,is second in importance to

the social manipulating done by the the liberals?

There is no English Canada and there never ever was an English Canada. Whomever spouts that is spouting BS.

Canada is a multi-cultural multi lingual country. Period !!

English Canada is an invention by those idiots in Queerbec who no idea about anything that makes sense and they are an insult to the French Culture and language. THAT is why the people of France hate them big time and the reason why I know that is because I have been to France a lot and beleive me they don't like Queerbecers!! French Canadians feel the same way towards those idiots!!!

[udawg]

Is English Canada so blindly benevolent that losing their own identity,culture,and language,is second in importance to

the social manipulating done by the the liberals?

Unlike the majority of the French population in Canada, there is no single identity or culture to "English Canada". Any identity and culture we may have had upon first immigrating 150-250 years ago was lost a long time ago. Not too many of us still think of ourselves as Scottish, Irish, English, or whatever. English Canada has only that in common, English.

We're not at risk of losing our identity, culture, OR language, because we've already lost the first two, and English is not going away, no matter how loudly Quebec cries.

[August1991]

Unlike the majority of the French population in Canada, there is no single identity or culture to "English Canada".

Good point. You're right.

"English Canada" refers really to "English-speaking Canada", or what some now refer to as ROC - rest of Canada.

There is no doubt that Canada, like America, has received people from all over. And Newfoundland is evidence that English-speaking Canadians do not all speak English the same way. Even after several generations.

Canada is a multi-cultural multi lingual country. Period !!

I'm surprised to see Common Sense buy into the Trudeau Liberal view of Canada. For myself, I have always felt uncomfortable with the word "multi-cultural".

[Bro]

To udawg,

Speak for yourself.

The english language is not the only thing that all the first settlers had in common.

"English Canada"has been more than fair and tolerant in

accepting people from all cultures and languages.

Secondly,we are a nation created mostly by the British Empire.

This country was built on their ideals,which included rights

for all new immigrants,even the Irish.

The amazing thing was all these people had a common goal,to build a country that was prosperous and a place new immigrants could call their own.

It worked for quite awhile,but the major problem now is the plan by the Liberal gov.to allow all new Canadians to retain their intolerances of other peoples when they move to Canada,and it is hardly a platform to build a nation with common interests or goals.

[udawg]

It worked for quite awhile,but the major problem now is the plan by the Liberal gov.to allow all new Canadians to retain their intolerances of other peoples when they move to Canada,and it is hardly a platform to build a nation with common interests or goals.

Explain your statement, "allow all new Canadians to retain their intolerances"

[Bro]

Get real. Go out in the street and listen to what is going on,before the street bites you in the southern regions.

[maplesyrup]

Having 2 official languages is fine with me, but the provinces should have more authority in how this is applied.

In the east, french is genuinely a second language. But out here in the west, the second language is mandarin Chinese.

Provinces should have the authority to apply rules in a regional basis.

With all do respect, and I agree that the provinces need to get on board here promoting various languages, Canada was founded by two cultures, with two different languages, and we need to respect the French language, and promote it, and the same for anglais dans la belle province. Elementary Schools need to be basically bilingual, French & English, and then a third (First Nations), and/or a fourth one (Mandarin, Italian, once in high school.

For those who are interested there is a great show on Saturday evenings at 10 PM (PT) on CBC Radio ONE called a prespot. It is Quebecois music with a French musician as host who translates the words into English for each song before he plays it. Delightful.

[August1991]

For those who are interested there is a great show on Saturday evenings at 10 PM (PT) on CBC Radio ONE called a prespot

Is that the programme with Jim Corcoran? He is a chansonnier and I was surprised to learn he does radio. (I guess he needs the money.) Yes, the programme is good.

There's also Bernard St-Laurent who does local CBC English Montreal and nationally "C'est la vie". (I have little faith in this, as a bridge-builder.)

Rather, I recall the words of a German woman from Dresden I knew in Quebec City: "It is good that young people from Saskatoon or Edmonton can drive to Rivière-du-Loup and learn something new", she said. "It is good you young people can travel freely." (True, I thought. We use the same SIN card everywhere in Canada.)

[CanadaRocks]

Canada was founded by two cultures, with two different languages, and we need to respect the French language, and promote it, and the same for anglais dans la belle province.

Respectfully? I disagree. Canada may have been founded by two cultures, but we made a huge mistake when we allowed more than a single language to dominate. It sets Canadians against each other in a struggle for dominance. The more we fight each other the less able we are to embrace each other and focus our energies on the true task at hand, building our Canada. At this moment I don't think we have an "our Canada" I think we have a FRENCH Canada, and an ENGLISH Canada each competing to see who will determine Canada's future.

We speak of Canada's second language being French, and yet any Person from France would burst out laughing, or cursing at that thought. Our second language is Quebec Speak, or bastardized French. Our first language is likely bastardized English.

I live on the Ontario side of the Quebec border. The town I live in proudly claims to be 90% bilingual. As I speak only English currently when I moved here I thought this a wonderful opportunity to learn to become bilingual and get to know my Canadian french speaking countrymen and women. My views have since changed greatly.

In the year I've been here, I've not found work despite papering the town with resume's. Never in my life have I failed so miserably at finding work. Each time I have managed to obtain an interview at a job I'm qualified to do, the interview ends when the employer learns I am not french speaking, and this is wether the job requires an ability to speak french or not.

At the part time job I did manage to get, my co-workers fluently speak English with me when we are alone, and yet the moment another french speaking Person enters the room, they immediately move to speak french and entirely ignore me as though I no longer existed, this is not one occasion, but any and every occasion. I find this deeply insulting and my opinion of Canadians who are primarily french has dropped to the point that I wonder if Quebecers are really Canadians at all. I don't mean that in an offensive way despite how it sounds, however the rudeness I've encountered sure is changing the way I view Canada.

When I broach these Persons telling them I feel left out, they counter by telling me that I should learn to be a Frenchman. Eventually I grew irritated by their comments and returned that I am a Canadian who speaks our primary language, and not an ENGLISH Canadian. At this they generally become embarrassed and speak english with me until the next occassion.

I don't feel my co-workers are bad People. In fact I tend to like them alot, and they me. We face alot of the same issues. We make a good team when we work together. Its not thier fault that they were raised to speak a different language, nor is it mine. Yet language has been made to be a tremendous barrier to keep us apart, and it is very effective.

Eventually, out of necessity and opportunity, I will learn to speak Quebec Speak. However I will never again respect that Canada has two official languages and will oppose this to my dying day. I think we should tear down any and all walls that serve to divide one Canadian from another, especially something so fundemental as our ability to talk to each other. Culture is more than language so that is no excuse. Simply being Canadian, is a culture in itself. I feel that our leaders have betrayed us in advancing how many languages we must speak to be a Canadian because as it stands now, if you don't speak both English AND Quebec Speak, then you are not really a Canadian at all, you're a second class Canadian even if you were born here.

I say hold a vote, remove the second language garbage, choose Quebec Speak to be the official Canadian language, or choose English, it really matters not which is our official language only one of them is shared by all Canadians.

Multilingual is wonderful, but being told you MUST speak them all to obtain work, or to be a real Canadian, is nothing more than an expensive disgusting insult that tears Canadians apart.

[CanadaRocks]

An insight I had not considered, which perhaps I should have before posting that last post?

Even as growing up surrounded by English speaking Canadians makes learning Quebec Speak most difficult, so too is learning English for those raised surrounded by Quebec speak. Perhaps it is this that makes it reasonable for Quebec Speak to be our second language?

If this is so, then perhaps for once our leaders were wise to make Quebec Speak a 2nd official language, for within a generation or two, though we must speak two languages to accomplish it, all Canadians will be able to talk easily with each other, and perhaps then we can begin to look at other issues we face in common without an us/them attitude?

Anyhow.. I don't really approve of two official languages in a multi-cultural country, but at least I understand it a bit better perhaps?

[odie441]

Canada Rocks.....I spent 5 years in the heart of Quebec where I was placed in a situation where I had to learn French. I chose to learn real French and than adapted it to Quebec speak. Actually I adapted it to Bluet, or the form of french spoken in the Saganay. Anyway, I am in total agreement with your view on official languages policy. I would like to see official bilingualism disappear totally. The money wasted on it could be a great addition to the health carte system. The only people official bilingualism services are Quebecers. Ya I said Quebecers instead of Quebecois because I really don't give a shit what they want to be called. Why so negative, because they lost the damn war and I am so tired of bending over backwards to placate them.

I do believe they are a distinct society but no more distinct than say the Italian community, or the Ukrainaians, etc. Therefore they do not deserve any special privlidges. We have had it beaten into our heads that we have done the poor Quebecers wrong and we owe them something. Newsflash folks, we have been conned by no other than Quebec politicians. In our haste to placate quebec and preserve their distinct society, we have almost destroyed our own. Do you folks realize that almost every position of power in the Ottawa beaucratic machine is filled by a Quebecer. We continually court one province and sell our souls to placate them in a mistaken belief we owe them something for the sins of a few unscrupulous and shady businessmen. So Quebec plays on our guilt and we bow down to threats of separation and the spoiled kid gets what it wants.

Bullshit on that! The time has come to stand up for the majority and stop bending over for 8 million crybabies. If they want to separate I say let them go! But why would they as long as they can perpetuate the great fraud on Les Anglais or as they refer to us square heads.

[Argus]

Canada was founded by two cultures, with two different languages, and we need to respect the French language, and promote it, and the same for anglais dans la belle province.

Can I ask - why? History is, of course, in the past. Old attitudes, old beliefs, are long gone. Yes, we were founded by two linguistic groups. An unfortunate fact which has kept us divided ever since. Can you imagine a Canada where all of us spoke the same language? I don't care if it's English, French or Swahili. We would all be one people. So much fussing and bickering would be gone Why do you think we need to sustain a second language when we would be better off with one?

[Argus]

But that's not my point.  The story in Ottawa is told in English, and French-speakers are out of the loop.

This is not really true any more, and is becoming less true with every passing year. People have to remember that while the senior civil service is still primarily English that is undergoing a massive shift due to the boomers retiring and the advent of more strictly policed bilingualism rules.

In our area of the public service every new manager over the past several years has been Francophone. The Anglo managers and executives are all older people approaching retirement. As they retire they are being replaced mainly by Francophones. Their positions are now all bilingual imperative. Just recently they eliminated the "bilingual non-imperative" designation which allowed unilingual anglos to win a position, and then learn the second language. Now anyone who even wants to apply must be bilingual first.

Because of cultural factors this massively favours Francophones. Treasury Board figures show 74% of bilingual positions are held by Francophones. A very large number of the remainder are held by Anglo Quebecers - simply because it is largely in a French environment like Quebec where Anglos learn an acceptable level of French.

As these factors continue, and the older Anglos retire, the senior ranks of the civil service will assume more and more of a French (Quebec) face. It's easily possible that 90% or more of senior civil servants in Ottawa will be Francophone within the next two decades. That means all the decision making, policy making, budget making power will be with Quebecers.

Nor is it just this. Younger civil servants in all areas are more and more likely to be Francophones. This is due to the concept of official bilingualism spreading in the last decade to incorporate the "right" of employees to work in the language of their choice. Bilingualism used to merely mean those who served the public in an area where there were a lot of both linguistic groups had to be bilingual. Now it means everyone on the inside, clerks, administrators, managers and supervisors, messengers, mail room people, everyone who services internal "clients" has to be bilingual. This is all so that people who are hired largely due to their bilingualism, and who get a bonus for their bilingualism, can be addressed in all ways only in the language of their choice. Go figure that one out.

In any event, the entire civil service is undergoing a change. Younger people are more and more likely to be Francophones. And as the boomer generation retires you're going to find the majority of the civil service will be made up of Quebecers and Francophones.

[CanadaRocks]

Encouraging Quebec families to be excessively large and supporting this through their provincial government, turns out to have been a brilliant political move eh? One might say perhaps "the sleeper awakens."

In the past I've often scoffed at "political correctness" as I suppose many may have. Yet in the face of the language wall that separates Canadians from each other, and in understanding that we each are affected by our perceptions of matters, I wonder if political correctness might not have its place.

What I mean by this, is the frequent references to Canadians who speak Quebec Speak as FRENCH Canadians etc, and of Canadians who speak English as ENGLISH Canadians etc.

Do you know why there is an insistance that the Canadian flag fly above the Provincial flag or for that matter any other flag? It is to remind us that our alliegance lies first to Canada, and then to other concerns.

A small gesture perhaps, but one that serves its purpose well as a reminder.

Within the scope of that concept, I strongly feel that Canadians should encourage themselves, and other Canadians, to reconsider our designations.

I can assure you I am not an ANGLO, or an ENGLISH Canadian. I'm Canadian first and foremost. Perhaps a Canadian who speaks English is fair. I try very hard not to consider our Quebec Speak brothers and sisters FRENCH Canadians, but to consider them Canadians who speak Quebec Speak. Along the same lines I applaud Canadians who are have breached the communication barrier and are Canadians bilingual in our offical languages.

Some may scoff at the thought of asserting we are Canadian prior to our linguistic heritage. To those Persons I would say that it is significant. I don't give a sweet damn what language we all speak, it sucks that some of us speak a different one, but I revel in knowing that first and foremost, WE ARE CANADIANS.

Canadians who are bilingual in both offical languages are taking over our government at all levels? Cool. Most of those Canadians who are bilingual are coming from one province? Well, that does suck. The interests of all may not be represented. On the other hand? It is not written in stone that Canadians who are bilingual come from Quebec, so perhaps we other provinces need to take appropriate and effective steps to ensure that Canadians from our area's become eligible by becoming fully bilingual ASAP.

and yes, I dislike having two languages, besides dividing us so long as all Canadians don't know both, I do feel its an insult to any Canadian whose heritage language is not represented. However this is the case, its not going away, and we need to turn our greatest weakness, into our greatest strength if we, Canadians, are to come out on top as one People.

heh.. meant to give my 2 cents but I think thats more like a nickel .. *S* ..keep the change!

[maplesyrup]

Sure, let's have one official language in Canada - French.

So much for that theory, eh folks.

Give me a break.

Every country has its history, traditions, and customs. Canada's history is the merging of two linguistic groups, French & English. Of course, other languarges are encouraged, but perhaps we owe redress to our First Nations people for a third official language, if we are going to go that route.

Canada is not the place for people who don't have an appreciation for our multilingual community. They need to move on - either learn some additional languages or move somewhere else. Having and respecting different languages is is very positive thing, and is only divisive by those who choose to make it so.

[CanadaRocks]

Every country has its history, traditions, and customs. Canada's history is the merging of two linguistic groups, French & English. Of course, other languarges are encouraged, but perhaps we owe redress to our First Nations people for a third official language, if we are going to go that route.

Canada's history is a great deal more than the merging of two linguistic groups, and that history is being increased with every passing day.

In an ideal world, where all social issues can be easily resolved and money is not an issue, perhaps I would concur with your conclusion.

This is not the case in our present time. Instead, we are faced with the fact that Quebec Speak and English largely divide Canadians. I strongly feel it was an error not to have ensured one common language for all Canadians from the start. That official bilingualism is the only apparent viable solution for our current delimina does not mean we should compound this error by repeating it.

If we do? Then only Canadians who speak English, Quebec Speak, an as yet unnamed Native language will be truely first class Canadians and allowed to be members of our government, and the rest, all second class Canadians. Thats smart? The only way to recognize a cultural contribution is to make its language Official? Come now, surely there must be more to cultures than language?

Language should not be allowed to determine who is a first class Canadian, and who is second. It does currently, there is a remedy in place, which may not be the best answer, but is an answer. If it is wrong to have two official languages, why compound the error by having a third, or more? Why erect linguistic barriers?

As for the heritage of Canada that comes from our Canadian Natives, lets find some why of embracing and recognizing it, short of linguistically, yet equally as valid.

Their contribution is to be respected, but lets not use them to worsen the state of Canadian unity and further divide us.

Canada is not the place for people who don't have an appreciation for our multilingual community. They need to move on - either learn some additional languages or move somewhere else.

I feel you are very very mistake here. I'm born Canadian. I've never really considered myself anything else. I need to move on because I disagree with language barriers? I need to move somewhere else? Those sir are fighting words and perhaps you'd best put your dukes up.

You've stated

Having and respecting different languages is is very positive thing, and is only divisive by those who choose to make it so.

I most certainly do respect different languages and cultures. This does not mean that I will in any way support using our differences to divide us into us and them groups that encourage us to focus on infighting.

When I try to get a job, and I am turned away because I don't speak Quebec speak, or a Person from Quebec gets turned down because they don't speak English, that is divisive. It is not hard at all to list ways that multiple languages can divide a People who do not all know every official one, for they are many.

When one cannot be understood by a countryman(woman) THAT is divisive.

When one lives above a law or situation, it is not unusual for them to not fully understand its affects or implications. Perhaps you should get down in the muck and suffer with the rest of us awhile before you speak of what is divisive, and what is not.

[Argus]

Sure, let's have one official language in Canada - French.

Canada is not the place for people who don't have an appreciation for our multilingual community. They need to move on - either learn some additional languages or move somewhere else.

If we had one official language we would at least be more united.

As for those who don't "appreciate" our lovely dual linguistic heritage moving on - well, the majority of Francophones in Quebec have wanted to do just that for some years now. They apparently don't want anything to do with your mulitilingual community. If it weren't for the 99% no votes of Anglos and close to that of ethnics Quebec would be a seperate country today and official bilingualism would be gone.

So it appears you cherish our dual linguistic nature on behalf of people who, for the most part, want nothing to do with you.

[CanadaRocks]

So it appears you cherish our dual linguistic nature on behalf of people who, for the most part, want nothing to do with you.

Perhaps due to linguistic barriers that have in the past precluded our ability to see clearly those things we share in common we have been led to focus instead on those things which divide us.

Thankfully through brillance or blind luck we are breaching this language barrier together. Even so, with our young primarily being taught both languages it may be several decades before all of Canada is fully bilingual in both of our official languages and are capable of recognizing all Canadians as one group with many of the same issues in common, with our differences being the spice that adds flavor and not barriers which set us apart.

This could of course be accelerated if in their wisdom, having committed to bilingualism in English and Quebec Speak, provinces offered encouragement and enhanced support for all Canadians who desire or are willing to pick up the official language they do not currently possess.

The People of Quebec have a lot to offer the rest of Canada, and the rest of Canada has a lot to offer Quebec.

Once long ago we learned this lesson and formed a Canada that is respected, admired, and liked throughout the world. Let the other nations of the world fall apart like crumbling cake to be gobbled up by scavengers if thats what they really want. Let Canadians be the ones to teach the world that differences can be overcame peacefully, and to a mutual lasting benefit to all members of our society.