Army Guy Posted June 3, 2009 Report Posted June 3, 2009 (edited) I've always knew that the airforce is one of the poorer cousins when it comes to budget allocation....but this is interesting. Airforce. Drones Army also has it's concerns in ref to more of those tax dollars. Army Edited June 3, 2009 by Army Guy Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Borg Posted June 3, 2009 Report Posted June 3, 2009 (edited) I've always knew that the airforce is one of the poorer cousins when it comes to budget allocation....but this is interesting.Airforce. Army also has it's concerns in ref to more of those tax dollars. Army Still paying for liberal policy - very anti military. Catch up is expensive and this recent fear from lack of money and jobs will make it tougher. I once had the only serviceable SAR aircraft for BC, Yukon parts of the NWT and Alberta - we spent a lot of money transiting to the areas. We performed miracles with nothing. Even had a baby named after the SAR TECH that assisted in the onboard birth. I am sure there will be many who blame all BUT the libs - but those of us serving through those dark days will never forget. General population in those days did not give a shit about kit and tended to berate us as a whole - we were even forbidden to wear our uniforms in public. Public today has improved greatly but they have no idea how truly expensive it is to keep a military well kitted. When they find out they tend to blink. If you want to keep our borders in the north you WILL spend money - if you want us to travel to God knows where for that corupt organization - the UN - we need the kit to do the job - if you want us to follow through on our signed agreement with NATO we need the kit. While many believe the world is safe - arguably it is more dangerous now than ever - Canada is more at risk than ever - certainly the people she sends to the big show - and all the little shows around the world that receive no attention - know this. Better to fight off shore than inside Canada The Air Force has always sucked the hind tit - but it is improving albeit slowly - thanks heavens for those operational guys who suffer through one or more tours of duty in hell called Ottawa - they play and fight the political games and work their hearts out - then they go in front of Treasury and beg for the cash to do the job. Treasury - the true power - THEY HAVE THE TRUE AND FINAL SAY in what the military gets. Navy is hurting too - they need serious and capable battle ability in the next battle field - the arctic - we are way behind there - and the americans and russians will tell us to get out of the way - or they will move us - sooner or later it will happen and NO WORLD COURT WILL HELP US - words cannot compete with force - and one or both will not give a damn about words when it comes down to who gets the riches in the arctic that we call ours - and trust me - both countries dispute our ownership. Whatever we build will have to be armed - and well armed - not with a pop gun - and it will also require anti sub ability, anti air capability plus the ability to operate in horrendous ice conditions - otherwise we are well and truly f**ked. In the end you can never fight a battle with words - it will always come down to taking and holding territory "If you want peace you must always prepare for war" So spend or see this country lose a lot of ground (literally). Borg Edited June 3, 2009 by Borg Quote
Smallc Posted June 3, 2009 Report Posted June 3, 2009 Well guess what, there isn't any money to be had...because we cut our revenue sources. People complain all the timea bout not having enough money. The fact is, one of the three aircraft in the first report has replacements on the way and another is breaking because of nothing to do with Canada or it's budget. Quote
Jerry J. Fortin Posted June 3, 2009 Report Posted June 3, 2009 Sad isn't it? It has been bad for a long time. Yet it would seem the right place to spend public dollars right now! Better than pissing it away on GM anyway......... Quote
Smallc Posted June 3, 2009 Report Posted June 3, 2009 People are always worried about something though. People always want more money, especially from government. We need someone like Chretien again who can just say no! Quote
Army Guy Posted June 3, 2009 Author Report Posted June 3, 2009 Well guess what, there isn't any money to be had...because we cut our revenue sources. People complain all the timea bout not having enough money. The fact is, one of the three aircraft in the first report has replacements on the way and another is breaking because of nothing to do with Canada or it's budget. I don't think it is a matter of "if there is money to be had" we've put that off for far to long, and i'm sure that if it is a capablity we could live without it would have already been indentified....I think it will be more of dig deeper, or cut something else.... To be fair, those replacements have been coming for over 20 years now. In that time requirements change, numbers required change, so does our defensive needs.... As for the other breaking, your right for the some of the part, the helo is crap....however if the funding was there so would the spare parts to keep them flying....along with everything else in the forces there is just not enough cash to purchase spares in qty's needed to keep everything running all of the time... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Army Guy Posted June 3, 2009 Author Report Posted June 3, 2009 People are always worried about something though. People always want more money, especially from government. We need someone like Chretien again who can just say no! Thats was cretiens problem was it not ? the problem here is that our military is part of government, and it is our governments responsiability to maintain and effectively defend our country.....to effectively mange all the governmentental profiles and depts....not just the ones that contain votes.... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Smallc Posted June 3, 2009 Report Posted June 3, 2009 To be fair, those replacements have been coming for over 20 years now. In that time requirements change, numbers required change, so does our defensive needs.... No, they haveen't. They were cancelled and the project was restarted in 2004. We can't will them here any faster than the company can get them to us. As for the other breaking, your right for the some of the part, the helo is crap....however if the funding was there so would the spare parts to keep them flying....along with everything else in the forces there is just not enough cash to purchase spares in qty's needed to keep everything running all of the time... Again, no, this has nothing to do with spares. This has to do with the need to replace the tail hub almost every time the helicopter flies. They are terrible and it's a good thing we cancelled the original contract and didn't end up with more of them. It's important to note that there are other helicopters available for SAR (15 Griffons and the couple of Sea Kings that can fly and are not deplyed). Is it an ideal situation? No, but there are other priorities that need addressing first (since, as I already said, new helicopters are on the way, and the Aurora fleet is being refitted) like the JSS. We can't have everythign we want and this is just one of those cases. We've spent enough already. How much more? We can't afford it. Quote
Smallc Posted June 3, 2009 Report Posted June 3, 2009 Thats was cretiens problem was it not ? the problem here is that our military is part of government, and it is our governments responsiability to maintain and effectively defend our country.....to effectively mange all the governmentental profiles and depts....not just the ones that contain votes.... And we have increased the budget to more than double in 8 years...it has an escalator built in now. How much more? Quote
Army Guy Posted June 3, 2009 Author Report Posted June 3, 2009 No, they haveen't. They were cancelled and the project was restarted in 2004. We can't will them here any faster than the company can get them to us. Yes they have over 20 years ago the military informed the government that these helo's needed replacing....you don't get a restart because you cancel a contract...the fact remains they needed replacing some 20 years ago....you can't will that away, as you say... As far as willing them faster....thats bullshit....Money makes the world go round....if it had not been for the odd specs we ordered those helos would have been in service years ago... Again, no, this has nothing to do with spares. This has to do with the need to replace the tail hub almost every time the helicopter flies It has everything to do with spares a tail hub is a spare part, each piece of equipment is assisgned x amount of dollars it can spend every year on parts...no more funding no more parts no more hubs helos don't fly..... It's important to note that there are other helicopters available for SAR (15 Griffons and the couple of Sea Kings that can fly and are not deplyed). Not helos that where spec purchased for that very mission SAR....yes there are utility helos that could be made available, which detract from the reason they are used within the airforce ....in fact our entire aircraft fleet could be used in a SAR role if required....does not address this problem....Shitty helo, no parts, no solution....except perhaps a new helo type and new mixed fixed wing componet. like the JSS. JSS is a naval myth that will never come off the design tables....a project like this happens when the army sticks it's nose in Naval bussiness....all the Navy wants is a AOR....it's not good bussiness sticking a 1000 men on a ship full of jet fuel....and why we are doing it is deyond me... We can't have everythign we want and this is just one of those cases. We've spent enough already. How much more? We can't afford it. We should have slowly been replacing these capabilities over the last 20 years....instead we are here today, with everything needing to be replaced yesterday....and while it is easy to say there is no money left....or you can't have everything....you really need to be thinking about is what we as Canadians could live with out in regards to our defence until we can or do get the funding.... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Army Guy Posted June 3, 2009 Author Report Posted June 3, 2009 And we have increased the budget to more than double in 8 years...it has an escalator built in now. How much more? Until the 20 or more years of decay is repaired , but i'm only guessing.... And while we have been increasing the budget, it is just now coming into the black....allowing DND to do more small internal purchases but do you think that all this in house bickering would be going on between the elements if they had enough resourses to do the jobs we've asked them to do... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Borg Posted June 3, 2009 Report Posted June 3, 2009 It's important to note that there are other helicopters available for SAR (15 Griffons and the couple of Sea Kings that can fly and are not deplyed). Is it an ideal situation? No, but there are other priorities that need addressing first (since, as I already said, new helicopters are on the way, The Griffon is a nice civilian helicopter and was a political purchase - one not truly well thought of or encouraged by the military. It has very limited range and it also has very limited lift capability. Sea King - as the folks who fly them like to say - "Fly the airplane my grandfather flew" It has serious serviceability problems and should have been replaced years ago Your comments on the cost issue is one I would like to see you make if you were at the bottom of the hoist in a gale on a sinking ship. Actually, it would be nice to see you on a sinking ship - but you get back to your books now - maybe someday you will be a lawyer. Borg Quote
Smallc Posted June 3, 2009 Report Posted June 3, 2009 Not helos that where spec purchased for that very mission SAR Well, there are 15 Griffons that are painted yellow and red...so. Quote
Smallc Posted June 3, 2009 Report Posted June 3, 2009 As far as willing them faster....thats bullshit....Money makes the world go round....if it had not been for the odd specs we ordered those helos would have been in service years ago... That was the Conservative government that changed the specs...after they were already late. As for the tail rotors on the other Helicpoters, last I heard there was a world shortage...because everyone is having the same problem. Sorry, but the mony has to come from somewhere, and right now we don't have it. Quote
Borg Posted June 3, 2009 Report Posted June 3, 2009 (edited) Well, there are 15 Griffons that are painted yellow and red...so. Mostly base rescue units replacing the old Hueys Borg Edited June 3, 2009 by Borg Quote
Smallc Posted June 3, 2009 Report Posted June 3, 2009 Mostly base rescue units replacing the old HueysBorg Mostly, yes, since that's what they replaced. I realize that thye situation isn't ideal, but the budget has been increased by huge amounts....maybe the military should trim some fat (as they have been doing to some extent in some areas, we seem to have a much less equipment than we did and the equipment that we have is better) in personnel? That's where $8.4B goes after all. Quote
Borg Posted June 3, 2009 Report Posted June 3, 2009 (edited) Mostly, yes, since that's what they replaced. I realize that thye situation isn't ideal, but the budget has been increased by huge amounts....maybe the military should trim some fat (as they have been doing to some extent in some areas, we seem to have a much less equipment than we did and the equipment that we have is better) in personnel? That's where $8.4B goes after all. So, with those mighty Griffons - who will do rescues in places like Rat Pass in north? Did that one. Or the Garza Star a couple hundred miles of the west coast - or the Prinsendam passenger liner - got them all off - a couple hundred if I remember right - a great job with fixed wing and rotary wing assets from both the United States and Canada. Or medivacs from the island reservations near Bella Bella (Gotta' keep your Indian friends happy too) or off a tug boat 175 miles north of Inuvik? Or off Mount Waddington - pretty windy up there at those altitudes. Or a great one - taking a kid with a heart problem - very low level - zero visiblity - all on Loran C - very dangerous work - down the inside passage in heavy fog through the islands at night? Or like my favourite - we ran out of fuel on the number one engine about 10 minutes after touch down in Port Hardy - another off the west coast rescue. Yeah we pushed and we knew it. All on military record but never a peep from the media - we never talked to them - we were not allowed to. What is it worth to you for this service? If you do not want it fine - you live in your house in Winterpeg - ask the fisherman on both coasts and the arctic who catches your salmon if s/he values the service. Ask the RCMP if they like the service when we bail them out of some tough jams. Ask the natives on the west and northern coasts - or better - ask the other aviators who ply their business if they want us to come and get them when they go down. Ask the wife who at least gets the body back - yeah, she really does need to have at least a piece of him to bury. A more unpleasant and yet at the same time satisfying part of the work - helping the survivors and victims families Show me a Griffon that can do this. Unfortunately it cannot. It is a nice civilian airplane that was a political purchase - one not recommended by the Air Force. Or do we just push the person into the water and tell them to swim? Your answer is one that is so common within the general public - "who cares - too expensive" - that is until they need the service. I am not applying this as an emotional plea - it is simply the truth - and those who bitch about the cost have usually never needed the service. Perhaps we should cancel ambulance service - after all the majority of people will never need it. Or stop buying fire fighting equipment because after all most folks will never need it and it too is expensive. Tail rotor problems are now addressed - the SOR - if memory serves - did not buy into the parts program - something we should have learned from the F-18 purchase - we do not make those mistakes now. We also added a lot of additional considerations and requirements to the "off the shelf" bird which complicated the purchase in a bg way. One thing I can assure you - that SOB we called the creature and you call chretien caused a lot of these probs as did a lot more libs and yes, some cons as well. Bottom line - you want the service - you have to pay - you do not want it - well - the next time your ass is under six feet of water remember this - without that expensive hardware you are well and truly screwed. And if there are 10 people on the roof of your house and it is going under - you quite likely cannot do the entire rescue with one of your Grifs - unless the Grif has floats. Beacuse there is a damn good chance it will be sitting in the water with a full crew, full fuel and 10 people. Especially if the atltitude is nice and high due to warm weather. So tell you what - you get to pick the people who die - and yes - some of us have done that. I think I am wasting my time with you - perhaps others might think a bit - you might just be a lost cause - study your books - get that law degree and become a liberal. Borg Edited June 3, 2009 by Borg Quote
Smallc Posted June 3, 2009 Report Posted June 3, 2009 Bottom line - you want the service - you have to pay And we do. Over $20B a year now. The line has to be drawn somewhere. We have other priorities that need addressing. There is only so much money. Quote
Borg Posted June 3, 2009 Report Posted June 3, 2009 Mostly, yes, since that's what they replaced. I realize that thye situation isn't ideal, but the budget has been increased by huge amounts....maybe the military should trim some fat You are not wearing boots with green gun (duct) tape on them - I am Fat? I wish there was some I sew up rips in my clothes because to get replacements takes time - I have no more spares and I am one of only a few Canadians in my unit over here - most who are at least 6 inches shorter than me and 40 pounds lighter - so swaps do not work - I am waiting for - hopefully a mail run in the next month or so. I would also like a few more pairs of socks - they will come with time - but at the present I buy my own on the open market Another statement that makes me laugh - I need some fat. And I know for a fact that the guys and gals who are on home turf are doing their damndest to supply me - and I know for a fact that the entire system works damned hard for me - they have trimmed - you just like to talk through your hat. This is not a 9-5 job with taxi service and lunch breaks and coffee breaks - it is full out go. And that is not just me - if I pick up the Sat phone right now I can call someone in almost any trade back in Canada - and they will move heaven and earth for me - and my little friend - that IS NOT CHEAP TO DO. If you do not want or value the service then vote NDP Borg Quote
Smallc Posted June 3, 2009 Report Posted June 3, 2009 Everyone has to live within a budget, no matter who they are. The military is no different, despite what it does. Quote
Borg Posted June 3, 2009 Report Posted June 3, 2009 Everyone has to live within a budget, no matter who they are. The military is no different, despite what it does. I do not make those decisions - in fact you do - though your vote We only do what we are told - you on the other hand will someday graduate - and the scarey thing is - you will have done nothing that is of value other than perhaps get a B average - however someday you may actually see something other than the inside of a class room If you ever need our service - and never say never - you might actually have been the vote that decided to cancel said service. Cut the military and you might just regret it - despite your views. Vote NDP - taliban jack will appreciate the extra two bucks I will leave the last word to you as I am out of this one - wasting my time I fear. Borg Quote
Smallc Posted June 3, 2009 Report Posted June 3, 2009 You must have trouble reading. I'm not advocating for cuts and I don't vote NDP (federally). Oh, and here: Cumulative GPA: 4.25 I hope all my book learnin doesn't offend you. Quote
Borg Posted June 3, 2009 Report Posted June 3, 2009 You must have trouble reading. I'm not advocating for cuts and I don't vote NDP (federally).Oh, and here: Cumulative GPA: 4.25 I hope all my book learnin doesn't offend you. Ok - now I am off topic - thanks for the laugh. Some of the dumbest people I know have achieved great scores on examinations. Sun will be up soon - I am off for a small walk about. Cheers Borg Quote
Jerry J. Fortin Posted June 3, 2009 Report Posted June 3, 2009 Ok - now I am off topic - thanks for the laugh.Some of the dumbest people I know have achieved great scores on examinations. Sun will be up soon - I am off for a small walk about. Cheers Borg Well Borg I had no idea you were part of the family, I guess I just wasn't paying attention. For that I am sorry, and because of your family status, I owe you a measure of respect that I have not previously paid and for that I am sorry as well. Quote
Smallc Posted June 3, 2009 Report Posted June 3, 2009 Worthy of respect? Perhaps for what he does, but certainly not for what he says. Quote
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