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To all my American Brethren


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Americans, Friends, Countrymen. We stand at a crossroad that will define the next 100 years of our countries future. The basis of our existence as a country is built on the notation that all men are Capable of choosing there best course of action to achieve their personnel greatness. What we do now will determine whether we stand or fall in this world. Like Rome of old we have become weakened by the decadence and laziness of our way of life. We have had it good for so long that we have forgotten that greatness comes not from others telling us how to live and what to do, but in rolling up our collective sleeves and putting our sweat, tears, and blood into achieving our goals. We live now in a society that thinks it deserves something from us. That we owe them for something. I tell you now we will fall as a country if we continue this arrogant thought process. Its time for the people in this country with drive and ability to take back our country. To take it out of hands of looters and criminals.

We have lost are stomach for war, and the preservation of true freedom. We once believe in fighting for whats right. Not what is morally flexible at the time. Our Constitution is in danger of being torn apart by false lawmaking that interprets the constitution incorrectly to bend to the wills of people with agendas. Our politicians are corrupted by lobbyist who work for countries and companies who care nothing for American people. We fight wars while apologizing for it and tying a hand behind our back and asking our young men to fight for there lives but only enough to keep us from being looked down upon by a world that hates us. I say to heck with the world then. Let them feed the world, let them protect other countries innocent people. With one hand the beg us for our help and protection while on the other condemn us like spoiled children. We kill our enemies and apologize and pay off the same enemy when we our done. War is dirty, hard, and dangerous. Why fight the same enemy twice?

Its time, dear Americans, to shuck away this naive thinking that the government is there to save us. We must save ourselves. The government is made of the people, for the people, by the people. And the people have forgotten that. Fight for your country, fight for your people, fight for your rights, fight for your family, and fight for yourselves and never let this country come to a point where we no longer control our own lives. Freedom must never die, it must be fought for with every once of blood and sweat and time we can put into it.

Lastly, Never forget who you are and where you come from. Never let a man talk you into giving away your pride in your country. People complain all the time about flag flying, and national anthems, and such. they have no pride, they have no love for the country that provides them with the an opportunity to be greater then they ever could achieve anywhere else in the world. Never forget that even though your life is your own you live in a society built by the people around you that maximizes the freedoms you hold dear to yourself. It is are duty to not only protect ourselves but are neighbors as well. Only then will a government be rightly afraid of its people.

Choose to be free Americans. Earn that right, and protect it with all your heart as you protect those that love you.

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Americans, Friends, Countrymen. We stand at a crossroad that will define the next 100 years of our countries future. The basis of our existence as a country is built on the notation that all men are Capable of choosing there best course of action to achieve their personnel greatness.

So, you're what they call a "moderate" American!

I guess the Right has totally lost their marbles now that they've lost control of the levers of power.

And "personnel greatness!" Spelling errors aside, is that taken from the Founding Fathers, or is it the new revised American Constitution as revealed to Rush Limbaugh and other rightwing radio hacks?

We have lost are stomach for war, and the preservation of true freedom. We once believe in fighting for whats right. Not what is morally flexible at the time.

Yeah, that's what you need a little more of -- War! If things wind down in Iraq and Afghanistan, the multi-billion dollar arms business will go into recession. It's one thing to have the car industry shutting down, the real crisis for Republicans is if defense contractors have to halt production!

BTW since you are so gung-ho about fighting for freedom, are you presently a member of one of the armed services, or intending to enlist in the near future?

Lastly, Never forget who you are and where you come from. Never let a man talk you into giving away your pride in your country. People complain all the time about flag flying, and national anthems, and such. they have no pride, they have no love for the country that provides them with the an opportunity to be greater then they ever could achieve anywhere else in the world.

I used to despair that I lived in a country that does so little flag-waving and chest-thumping nationalism -- after the events of recent years, I'm coming to a conclusion that patriotism and nationalism do far more harm than good, and the fewer flags I see waving -- the better!

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So, you're what they call a "moderate" American!

I guess the Right has totally lost their marbles now that they've lost control of the levers of power.

And "personnel greatness!" Spelling errors aside, is that taken from the Founding Fathers, or is it the new revised American Constitution as revealed to Rush Limbaugh and other rightwing radio hacks?

Yeah, that's what you need a little more of -- War! If things wind down in Iraq and Afghanistan, the multi-billion dollar arms business will go into recession. It's one thing to have the car industry shutting down, the real crisis for Republicans is if defense contractors have to halt production!

BTW since you are so gung-ho about fighting for freedom, are you presently a member of one of the armed services, or intending to enlist in the near future?

I used to despair that I lived in a country that does so little flag-waving and chest-thumping nationalism -- after the events of recent years, I'm coming to a conclusion that patriotism and nationalism do far more harm than good, and the fewer flags I see waving -- the better!

Proof positive that I'm right. The best argument the above posters can come up with is attacking grammar and myself. The defense of the unintelligent. And yes I served, talked about it in several post.

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As the founders chanted during the revolution - "No King but Jesus" - we forget that it is the old believers that established this thing called freedom - this place called America - It is not that you say "God bless America" - time for the people to bless each other and love again.

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Proof positive that I'm right. The best argument the above posters can come up with is attacking grammar and myself. The defense of the unintelligent. And yes I served, talked about it in several post.

Better still, your post is reminiscent of another fellow.....

Give Me Liberty Or Give Me Death

Patrick Henry, March 23, 1775.

No man thinks more highly than I do of the patriotism, as well as abilities, of the very worthy gentlemen who have just addressed the House. But different men often see the same subject in different lights; and, therefore, I hope it will not be thought disrespectful to those gentlemen if, entertaining as I do opinions of a character very opposite to theirs, I shall speak forth my sentiments freely and without reserve. This is no time for ceremony. The questing before the House is one of awful moment to this country. For my own part, I consider it as nothing less than a question of freedom or slavery; and in proportion to the magnitude of the subject ought to be the freedom of the debate. It is only in this way that we can hope to arrive at truth, and fulfill the great responsibility which we hold to God and our country. Should I keep back my opinions at such a time, through fear of giving offense, I should consider myself as guilty of treason towards my country, and of an act of disloyalty toward the Majesty of Heaven, which I revere above all earthly kings.

Mr. President, it is natural to man to indulge in the illusions of hope. We are apt to shut our eyes against a painful truth, and listen to the song of that siren till she transforms us into beasts. Is this the part of wise men, engaged in a great and arduous struggle for liberty? Are we disposed to be of the number of those who, having eyes, see not, and, having ears, hear not, the things which so nearly concern their temporal salvation? For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth; to know the worst, and to provide for it.

I have but one lamp by which my feet are guided, and that is the lamp of experience. I know of no way of judging of the future but by the past. And judging by the past, I wish to know what there has been in the conduct of the British ministry for the last ten years to justify those hopes with which gentlemen have been pleased to solace themselves and the House. Is it that insidious smile with which our petition has been lately received? Trust it not, sir; it will prove a snare to your feet. Suffer not yourselves to be betrayed with a kiss. Ask yourselves how this gracious reception of our petition comports with those warlike preparations which cover our waters and darken our land. Are fleets and armies necessary to a work of love and reconciliation? Have we shown ourselves so unwilling to be reconciled that force must be called in to win back our love? Let us not deceive ourselves, sir. These are the implements of war and subjugation; the last arguments to which kings resort. I ask gentlemen, sir, what means this martial array, if its purpose be not to force us to submission? Can gentlemen assign any other possible motive for it? Has Great Britain any enemy, in this quarter of the world, to call for all this accumulation of navies and armies? No, sir, she has none. They are meant for us: they can be meant for no other. They are sent over to bind and rivet upon us those chains which the British ministry have been so long forging. And what have we to oppose to them? Shall we try argument? Sir, we have been trying that for the last ten years. Have we anything new to offer upon the subject? Nothing. We have held the subject up in every light of which it is capable; but it has been all in vain. Shall we resort to entreaty and humble supplication? What terms shall we find which have not been already exhausted? Let us not, I beseech you, sir, deceive ourselves. Sir, we have done everything that could be done to avert the storm which is now coming on. We have petitioned; we have remonstrated; we have supplicated; we have prostrated ourselves before the throne, and have implored its interposition to arrest the tyrannical hands of the ministry and Parliament. Our petitions have been slighted; our remonstrances have produced additional violence and insult; our supplications have been disregarded; and we have been spurned, with contempt, from the foot of the throne! In vain, after these things, may we indulge the fond hope of peace and reconciliation. There is no longer any room for hope. If we wish to be free-- if we mean to preserve inviolate those inestimable privileges for which we have been so long contending--if we mean not basely to abandon the noble struggle in which we have been so long engaged, and which we have pledged ourselves never to abandon until the glorious object of our contest shall be obtained--we must fight! I repeat it, sir, we must fight! An appeal to arms and to the God of hosts is all that is left us!

They tell us, sir, that we are weak; unable to cope with so formidable an adversary. But when shall we be stronger? Will it be the next week, or the next year? Will it be when we are totally disarmed, and when a British guard shall be stationed in every house? Shall we gather strength by irresolution and inaction? Shall we acquire the means of effectual resistance by lying supinely on our backs and hugging the delusive phantom of hope, until our enemies shall have bound us hand and foot? Sir, we are not weak if we make a proper use of those means which the God of nature hath placed in our power. The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us. Besides, sir, we shall not fight our battles alone. There is a just God who presides over the destinies of nations, and who will raise up friends to fight our battles for us. The battle, sir, is not to the strong alone; it is to the vigilant, the active, the brave. Besides, sir, we have no election. If we were base enough to desire it, it is now too late to retire from the contest. There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! Our chains are forged! Their clanking may be heard on the plains of Boston! The war is inevitable--and let it come! I repeat it, sir, let it come.

It is in vain, sir, to extenuate the matter. Gentlemen may cry, Peace, Peace-- but there is no peace. The war is actually begun! The next gale that sweeps from the north will bring to our ears the clash of resounding arms! Our brethren are already in the field! Why stand we here idle? What is it that gentlemen wish? What would they have? Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!

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Proof positive that I'm right. The best argument the above posters can come up with is attacking grammar and myself.

Actually I specifically ignored the spelling errors; my attack is on your mythologizing of your own nation's history. It has already been mythologized enough, without adding rightwing BS about personal greatness to the laundry list of false attributes.

You are posting this on a Canadian forum, so guess what: our history teaches some of the other side of the story, since the impetus for founding our nation was provided by the United Empire Loyalists (bet you never heard of them) who made up almost one third of the population of the American Colonies, and moved north, like my father's ancestors, because they preferred to remain British Subjects rather than live in the new revolutionary nation. It was not a matter of killing Hessians and defeating the British Army -- the American Revolution was also a civil war that divided families and took many years to sort out. The messy aspects of the war are glossed over in the mythology that has been created to celebrate the event.

The defense of the unintelligent. And yes I served, talked about it in several post.

So, now you want your children and your children's children to be marching off to fight battles in foreign lands for dubious causes. Why not let the dust settle on the present conflicts -- see how things work out as the present generation of Iraq and Afghanistan veterans are re-absorbed into society and civilian life, before asking for more.

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Better still, your post is reminiscent of another fellow.....

Give Me Liberty Or Give Me Death

Patrick Henry, March 23, 1775.

That's all I need to hear! Patrick Henry drummed up fear about Indians and slave revolts to promote military action against the British. Not surprising you would quote from him rather than Jefferson or Benjamin Franklin, since he was a state's rights advocate who rejected the Constitution, and only came to his senses and stopped calling for more revolution after seeing how the French Revolution started to go bad. He ended up a little more pragmatic and a little less idealist in later years than the zealot who gave the "Give me liberty, or give me death" speech.

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Proof positive that I'm right. The best argument the above posters can come up with is attacking grammar and myself. ...

That's your criteria for "proof"??!! =0

It's no wonder you're still blaming others for the mess you created called Iraq.

Edited by daniel
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As far as the Iraqi war goes, it time those US soldiers come home, or at least the ones who have been there along time. Today, the news is reporting that a US soldiers shot and killed 5 of his own guys. The pressure is getting too much for some and the only answer they can get is anti-depression drugs. If the soldier was on them I don't know for sure but there's been reports that alot of soldiers are and they need to be taken out of the "theatre" as the military says! They NEED to come home.

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That's your criteria for "proof"??!!

It's no wonder you're still blaming others for the mess you created called Iraq.

Whos blaming others for Iraq? America went in unilaterally. If were going to blame anyone for anything, we blame ourselves for fighting that war with one hand tied behind our back. We should have gone in destroyed everything and everyone that needed destroying and then left. The purpose of offensive war should be to eliminate the other sides ability to wage war on you effectively.

Secondly, I believe it was WIP stated im a proponent of war and that I would like to see my kids fighting wars. In point of fact i stated that we should go to war when its appropriate not when we want to justify it with moral flexibility. What I am saying is that we should fight wars based on our needs not on the Moral compass of what the rest of the world views as right or wrong. If someone attacks or threatens the United States we should drop the hammer on them so hard that for 100 years the people of that country will still talk about the huge mistake there ancestors made. We should work to make our wars swift and crushing. By doing so we give our kids a chance to live a world realtively war free.

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Whos blaming others for Iraq? America went in unilaterally. If were going to blame anyone for anything, we blame ourselves for fighting that war with one hand tied behind our back. We should have gone in destroyed everything and everyone that needed destroying and then left. The purpose of offensive war should be to eliminate the other sides ability to wage war on you effectively.

unilateral? What about the much ballyhooed "Coalition of the Willing"?

it would appear to go well beyond your simplistic "offensive war" designation. It would seem, "you" have this unrelenting need to shape "your" enemies in the mold of... "yourselves"... to bring so-called western (American) values and the "American dream" to certain peoples that, frankly, despise western values/morality/etc. And, of course, your, as you say, "offensive wars", hardly win the hearts/minds of your enemies.

ya ya, Iraq wasn't about oil - it was Bush's overwhelming desire to be Krusty's Great Liberator

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Better still, your post is reminiscent of another fellow.....

Give Me Liberty Or Give Me Death

Patrick Henry, March 23, 1775.

...It is in vain, sir, to extenuate the matter. Gentlemen may cry, Peace, Peace-- but there is no peace. The war is actually begun! The next gale that sweeps from the north will bring to our ears the clash of resounding arms! Our brethren are already in the field! Why stand we here idle? What is it that gentlemen wish? What would they have? Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!

What is fascinating to me is how America and India both achieved independence from British colonial rule, but in completely opposite ways (violent revolution vs mass non-violent resistance).

Gandhi's strategy was ironically the much more Christian route, but nobody can blame Americans for what was historically the status quo (violent resistance). Non-violent resistance may not have even worked in America's circumstances/era. Would be interesting though to see how American and world history would have panned out differently had they used the other method.

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unilateral? What about the much ballyhooed "Coalition of the Willing"?

it would appear to go well beyond your simplistic "offensive war" designation. It would seem, "you" have this unrelenting need to shape "your" enemies in the mold of... "yourselves"... to bring so-called western (American) values and the "American dream" to certain peoples that, frankly, despise western values/morality/etc. And, of course, your, as you say, "offensive wars", hardly win the hearts/minds of your enemies.

ya ya, Iraq wasn't about oil - it was Bush's overwhelming desire to be Krusty's Great Liberator

your post assumes two things. First that I care about what values my enemies have, which I never said, and that I want to instill some sort of western value in other Countries. Also which I never said. They can choose to live there lives how ever they choose. My point is, screw with this country and pay the price. I could care less about what values they practice. And btw, in reference to your other post about Iraq. I know it was about oil. And I think we were wrong for it. The real enemy was in afghanistan and pakistan.

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your post assumes two things. First that I care about what values my enemies have, which I never said, and that I want to instill some sort of western value in other Countries. Also which I never said. They can choose to live there lives how ever they choose. My point is, screw with this country and pay the price. I could care less about what values they practice. And btw, in reference to your other post about Iraq. I know it was about oil. And I think we were wrong for it. The real enemy was in afghanistan and pakistan.

of course, my use of quotes surrounding “you, your, yourselves” is the ‘royal you’… as in the United States, not you personally.

certainly, target your real enemies that do you direct harm… that are “imminent threats”. I infer from your post that you acknowledge Iraq was not such an enemy… that the Bush doctrine of pre-emptive self defense has no foundations within a global community that purports to live harmoniously and cooperatively in terms of law, security, economic development, social progress, human rights….. and world peace.

of course it was about oil – and yet… some Americans still believe Iraq was involved in 9/11, that Iraq had WMD, that Iraq hosted al-Qaeda - prior to the war, that Iraq posed an imminent threat to the United States…

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...of course it was about oil – and yet… some Americans still believe Iraq was involved in 9/11, that Iraq had WMD, that Iraq hosted al-Qaeda - prior to the war, that Iraq posed an imminent threat to the United States…

Correct...that's why the United States attacked Iraq in 1991, established no-fly zones, financed Kurdish insurrection, enacted a Public Law for regime change, executed numerous military operations (including Desert Fox), and enforced UN sanctions....all before 9/11 or Dubya's presidency.

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What is fascinating to me is how America and India both achieved independence from British colonial rule, but in completely opposite ways (violent revolution vs mass non-violent resistance).

India's path to independence was hardly without violence, but granted, not the same degree as in the American Colonies.

Gandhi's strategy was ironically the much more Christian route, but nobody can blame Americans for what was historically the status quo (violent resistance). Non-violent resistance may not have even worked in America's circumstances/era. Would be interesting though to see how American and world history would have panned out differently had they used the other method.

There would be no USA as we know it today. "Violence" is unapologetically American.

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What is fascinating to me is how America and India both achieved independence from British colonial rule, but in completely opposite ways (violent revolution vs mass non-violent resistance).
Far more people died during Partition than died as Loyalists moved north.

Moonlight, you are wrong to think that theories of non-violence prevent suffering. Both Sri Lanka and Cambodia are Buddhist countries, and yet both have seen horrific suffering.

IMHO, Canada discovered a way for two groups to avoid violence and live peacefully together. Unfortunately, many Canadians today don't know their history and how this happened.

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As far as the Iraqi war goes, it time those US soldiers come home, or at least the ones who have been there along time. Today, the news is reporting that a US soldiers shot and killed 5 of his own guys. The pressure is getting too much for some and the only answer they can get is anti-depression drugs. If the soldier was on them I don't know for sure but there's been reports that alot of soldiers are and they need to be taken out of the "theatre" as the military says! They NEED to come home.

You can't even get your own troops home from Afghanistan.....don't worry about the Americans, who never really come home as a matter of policy. That's why they were called Expeditionary Forces.

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Correct...that's why the United States attacked Iraq in 1991, established no-fly zones, financed Kurdish insurrection, enacted a Public Law for regime change, executed numerous military operations (including Desert Fox), and enforced UN sanctions....all before 9/11 or Dubya's presidency.

And why the US gets less oil from Iraq now than Saddam sold to them as well, the bulk of oil companies operating in Iraq are non American with most of the oil going to Aisia and Europe.

Oh, and what oil the US does get from Iraq they pay for at world prices. Prices they could just pay anybody else.

of course it was about oil – and yet… some Americans still believe Iraq was involved in 9/11, that Iraq had WMD, that Iraq hosted al-Qaeda - prior to the war, that Iraq posed an imminent threat to the United States…

Other than most of the world believing Saddam had WMDs as well, I for one cannot fathom why about the rest. Can you?

ya ya, Iraq wasn't about oil - it was Bush's overwhelming desire to be Krusty's Great Liberator

It was about oil or it was not Waldo? You're all over the map on this one. Actually the reasons for the Iraq invasion are fairly strategic with liberation only being incidental and oil being the mechanism by which the Iraqi people could fund their new economy. However, Bush certainly was the greatest liberator the world has ever known wouldn't you agree? I mean, can you name another that has achieved freedom for more?

Edited by KrustyKidd
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Americans, Friends, Countrymen. We stand at a crossroad that will define the next 100 years of our countries future. The basis of our existence as a country is built on the notation that all men are Capable of choosing there best course of action to achieve their personnel greatness. What we do now will determine whether we stand or fall in this world. Like Rome of old we have become weakened by the decadence and laziness of our way of life. We have had it good for so long that we have forgotten that greatness comes not from others telling us how to live and what to do, but in rolling up our collective sleeves and putting our sweat, tears, and blood into achieving our goals. We live now in a society that thinks it deserves something from us. That we owe them for something. I tell you now we will fall as a country if we continue this arrogant thought process. Its time for the people in this country with drive and ability to take back our country. To take it out of hands of looters and criminals.

We have lost are stomach for war, and the preservation of true freedom. We once believe in fighting for whats right. Not what is morally flexible at the time. Our Constitution is in danger of being torn apart by false lawmaking that interprets the constitution incorrectly to bend to the wills of people with agendas. Our politicians are corrupted by lobbyist who work for countries and companies who care nothing for American people. We fight wars while apologizing for it and tying a hand behind our back and asking our young men to fight for there lives but only enough to keep us from being looked down upon by a world that hates us. I say to heck with the world then. Let them feed the world, let them protect other countries innocent people. With one hand the beg us for our help and protection while on the other condemn us like spoiled children. We kill our enemies and apologize and pay off the same enemy when we our done. War is dirty, hard, and dangerous. Why fight the same enemy twice?

Its time, dear Americans, to shuck away this naive thinking that the government is there to save us. We must save ourselves. The government is made of the people, for the people, by the people. And the people have forgotten that. Fight for your country, fight for your people, fight for your rights, fight for your family, and fight for yourselves and never let this country come to a point where we no longer control our own lives. Freedom must never die, it must be fought for with every once of blood and sweat and time we can put into it.

Lastly, Never forget who you are and where you come from. Never let a man talk you into giving away your pride in your country. People complain all the time about flag flying, and national anthems, and such. they have no pride, they have no love for the country that provides them with the an opportunity to be greater then they ever could achieve anywhere else in the world. Never forget that even though your life is your own you live in a society built by the people around you that maximizes the freedoms you hold dear to yourself. It is are duty to not only protect ourselves but are neighbors as well. Only then will a government be rightly afraid of its people.

Choose to be free Americans. Earn that right, and protect it with all your heart as you protect those that love you.

If only more Americans would think this way again, it is what made the strongest country on the planet. Pay no mind to the sniveling drivel, the has beens and never weres have no other recourse. But your country will stand or fall because of what "we the people" do.

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IMHO, Canada discovered a way for two groups to avoid violence and live peacefully together. Unfortunately, many Canadians today don't know their history and how this happened.

Canada just got lucky. Without the American Revolution, Canada wouldn't have had such a peaceful path to "independence". Britain knew Canada would want independence as America did, so Britain cut a deal before major violence occurred so they could keep some of their NA interests.

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What is fascinating to me is how America and India both achieved independence from British colonial rule, but in completely opposite ways (violent revolution vs mass non-violent resistance).

Er, why go so far as India? America and Canada both achieved independence from British colonial rule via completely opposite routes - violent revolution vs. non-violent legislative evolution.

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Er, why go so far as India? America and Canada both achieved independence from British colonial rule via completely opposite routes - violent revolution vs. non-violent legislative evolution.

Australia, New Zeeland, South Africa, Rhodesia, Jamaica..etc etc etc....

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