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Why do American Christians approve of torture?


dub

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dub sure wouldn't know the difference either way....but probably very experienced with peeing pants at the prospect.

heh - heh

i thought you agreed with OB that if you're going to insult, make it a good one and not some low-browed pee joke.

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ah yeah. okay.

does this mean that you accept:

the silliness for someone (DoP) who calls himself an existential atheist to support a state that gives special privileges to those who follow a certain religion.

I don't see why the two are exclusive even assumping your premise. As an atheist I would have no per se problem with supporting a religiously organized state. America owes a lot of its laws and much of its culture to Jews and Christians (and of course Pagan Greeks and Romans). As far as I know atheists are not stoned to death in Israel. In relative terms that alon makes Israel the beacon of hope in the region. And thus in relative terms I would prefer more Israel and less Saudi Arabia (or Iran or any other Muslim barbarism masquarading as state ideology). In fact, Jewish atheists seem to enjoy the same rights attendant with citizenship that Jews, Christians and Arabs enjoy. In the region, that is positively enlightened.

Edited by Sulaco
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anyone want to go have some fun and go water boarding? cheney?

as long as you get to have the fun though, okay? i'll strap you down, put a towel on your face and start pouring water on your head. so much fun!

boy oh boy!

just like when you used to get your head flushed down the toilet!

maybe after we can go pray to jesus!

Well - I tried this waterboarding thing - at least one or two methods that fall under the moniker - it's terrifying and I can see why its effective. Is it torture - perhaps. Should that per se preclude its use - well I am not so filled with dogma as to answer yes.

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I don't see why the two are exclusive even assumping your premise. As an atheist I would have no per se problem with supporting a religiously organized state. America owes a lot of its laws and much of its culture to Jews and Christians (and of course Pagan Greeks and Romans).

Consider that, according to Thomas Jefferson, the U.S.A. was founded with the intention of putting a "wall of separation" between church and state, so that religion and politics could not be combined together as they were under European governments. And consider that all of the Christian Right groups are actively trying to destroy that separation and make the U.S. a Christian nation.

As far as I know atheists are not stoned to death in Israel. In relative terms that alon makes Israel the beacon of hope in the region. And thus in relative terms I would prefer more Israel and less Saudi Arabia (or Iran or any other Muslim barbarism masquarading as state ideology). In fact, Jewish atheists seem to enjoy the same rights attendant with citizenship that Jews, Christians and Arabs enjoy. In the region, that is positively enlightened.

I'm not up on the latest news from Israel, but over the last 30 years there has been a steady increase in power and influence of the Orthodox community. They are pushing religion into their politics and a lot of secular Jews have left the country as it becomes more and more religiously orthodox. And that's why I don't care for the "at least we're better than those Muslims" arguments; we are looking at a snapshot of conditions as they exist now, and we have to consider how both fundamentalist Jews and Christians want to create their own theocracies that would look remarkably like the Muslim versions (including public stonings) if their dreams came true.

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to be fair, there are many american christians who are not hypocrites:

NRCAT - National Religious Campaign Against Torture

In January 2006, NRCAT introduced a statement of conscience titled "Torture is a Moral Issue." Since then, over 25,000 people have added their support to the statement. The text has appeared in advertisements, including on the op-ed page of the New York Times. We invite you to add your support by signing the statement today.

"Torture is a Moral Issue" Statement of Conscience

Torture violates the basic dignity of the human person that all religions, in their highest ideals, hold dear. It degrades everyone involved -- policy-makers, perpetrators and victims. It contradicts our nation's most cherished ideals. Any policies that permit torture and inhumane treatment are shocking and morally intolerable.

NRCAT's definition of torture is the same as that contained in the United Nations Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment, which defines torture as "any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions."

Nothing less is at stake in the torture abuse crisis than the soul of our nation. What does it signify if torture is condemned in word but allowed in deed? Let America abolish torture now -- without exceptions.

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I don't see why the two are exclusive even assumping your premise. As an atheist I would have no per se problem with supporting a religiously organized state.

if you call yourself an atheist and you support a state that caters to a specific religious group, you're as confused as an anti-abortionist who supports an abortion clinic.

As far as I know atheists are not stoned to death in Israel. In relative terms that alon makes Israel the beacon of hope in the region. And thus in relative terms I would prefer more Israel and less Saudi Arabia (or Iran or any other Muslim barbarism masquarading as state ideology).

are you trying to say that all countries outside of israel in the middle east practice stoning to death? this is your reason for supporting israel?

In fact, Jewish atheists seem to enjoy the same rights attendant with citizenship that Jews, Christians and Arabs enjoy. In the region, that is positively enlightened.

you are incorrect.

if you're a muslim or a christian, you do not receive automatic israeli citizenship. you also do not receive special monetary help to move to israel.

if you're a muslim israeli and you try to get a house permit or purchase land in israel, you will hit a dead end. this is not the case if you're jewish.

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Today we've got one president who thinks its ok, and another one who thinks its, not ok

Umm no. We had one president who was open about the use of torture by his intelligence services and did much to publicize the internal debate about these methods. Which is why various men who spent time in the debate now face potential political prosecution. We have a sitting president who says on the other hand, "out of sight out of mind."

And so rendition will come into vogue and when impractical the CIA will do what it always has done, but it will again do it secretly, rather than being open about it.

I am not sure which approach is better - though I tend to lean toward the honest one.

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if you call yourself an atheist and you support a state that caters to a specific religious group, you're as confused as an anti-abortionist who supports an abortion clinic.

Umm - I have no idea why what you say should be true. I also support Great Britain (whatever that means) which has a state-established church led by it's head of state.

Israel is a secular state strongly informed by it's religion, much like the United States. Jews have over millenia gained the ability to tolarate those who do not share their creed and make place for them in their state. I have yet to hear of a Christian or an Atheist or a Muslim being stripped of his israeli citizenship or the attendant rights simply because of their creed. So what's the problem.

On the other hand Israel is beset by barbaric enemies who's religion teaches even today the murder of infidels. No, I am not talking about some imam in the 14th Century calling for Holy War - I am talking about fatwas being issued today. Given that, i would say atheists and Israelis make natural allies in a region beset by Isalmist dogmas.

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Consider that, according to Thomas Jefferson, the U.S.A. was founded with the intention of putting a "wall of separation" between church and state, so that religion and politics could not be combined together as they were under European governments. And consider that all of the Christian Right groups are actively trying to destroy that separation and make the U.S. a Christian nation.

I'm not up on the latest news from Israel, but over the last 30 years there has been a steady increase in power and influence of the Orthodox community. They are pushing religion into their politics and a lot of secular Jews have left the country as it becomes more and more religiously orthodox. And that's why I don't care for the "at least we're better than those Muslims" arguments; we are looking at a snapshot of conditions as they exist now, and we have to consider how both fundamentalist Jews and Christians want to create their own theocracies that would look remarkably like the Muslim versions (including public stonings) if their dreams came true.

Umm... I am constantly amused when such simplisme is ascribed to Jefferson. The man also grew up in a Christian society and considered christianity, sans its miracles, as the moral (and thereofre political) backbone of this nation - he wrote a "miracleless" bible to make Christian morality more paletable to those who did not appreciate the finer points of Christian mysticism. many of Jefferson's writings dealt with how to best build and preserve the moral bedrock upon which a republic can be built and he easily drew on Christian mores to write his rpescription. That is unless you care to argue that Jefferson also wanted a wall between morality and state.

And of course, and this may be hard to believe, vut Jefferson was but one of many founding fathers. And lo and behold, they differed in their views - on some issues terribly so. (I should add, waxing hyperbolic myself, that seldom mentioned is that Jefferson argued for a very limited franchise - he being a Virginian Gentleman that is not surprising -, believed that revolutions where an appropriate and constructive way to change government on a regular basis (how French of him, and had the cockmamie idea that untried farmers with harvest to worry about could put up a fight against trained professional armies)

Now, please direct me to serious Christian wiritngs that call for the establishment of Christian theocracy (with public stoning). I look forward to you providing support for your seeming hyperbolic assertion.

Edited by Sulaco
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Umm... I am constantly amused when such simplisme is ascribed to Jefferson.....

It's not unusual for some to invoke the Cliff's Notes version of Jefferson, when his writings and times are readily available for inspection. The "separation of church and state" evolved over time (especially in Connecticut).

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Umm - I have no idea why what you say should be true. I also support Great Britain (whatever that means) which has a state-established church led by it's head of state.

the UK does not give automatic citizenship to those who are christian. bad comparison.

do christians receive special real estate privileges in the UK as opposed to those who are not christian? bad comparison, again.

does the UK call itself a christian state? not really. but israel, formally defines itself as a "jewish state".

your attempt to show similarity between the two, failed.

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Umm... I am constantly amused when such simplisme is ascribed to Jefferson. The man also grew up in a Christian society and considered christianity, sans its miracles, as the moral (and thereofre political) backbone of this nation - he wrote a "miracleless" bible to make Christian morality more paletable to those who did not appreciate the finer points of Christian mysticism. many of Jefferson's writings dealt with how to best build and preserve the moral bedrock upon which a republic can be built and he easily drew on Christian mores to write his rpescription. That is unless you care to argue that Jefferson also wanted a wall between morality and state.

\And of course, and this may be hard to believe, Jefferson was but one of many founding fathers. And lo and behold, they differed in their views.

Now, please direct me to serious Christian wiritngs that call for the establishment of Christian theocracy (with public stoning). I look forward to you providing support for your seeming hyperbolic assertion.

You are thinking about old testimonial writings. They are not Christian...Christianity took place in the NEW TESTIMENT. The bible as you percieve it is not a Christian book - only in part - a little part just at the end of the second book. The only stonings that took place was by ambitious Roman bureacrats - or nasty Judeans that wanted to remove the Royal family once and for all - St. Steven the glowing one was stoned to death - as Saul (Paul) held the cloaks of the stoners..because he was jealous of Stevens high and holy spirit - because Paul was a spiritless loser ---who some how managed to clutter up most of the NT with his letters that consisted of early forms of social engineering and not Christian doctrine...Paulism - is Roman Catholic policy - not Christian - yes my friend - the Vatican is NOT a Christian institution. It never was.

Those who hate Christianity should focus on the fact that they really do not hate the old movement - they hate Paulism...and also - it was written but not included in the bible - that Paul may have been involved in the stoning of Christ's brother James the Just...who was to continue with the movement - and Peter the betraying coward was not given the keys to the "church" They belonged to James...so the whole movement was destroyed and taken over by fraud from the get go.

If the average person understood what really happened to Christianity - instead of dispising it they would embrace the movement - but because such deviancey took place in the early days - people with common sense could smell the rot...and want nothing to do with Christianity and how it was presented. It WAS an honest and powerful movement based on personal atonomy -rebellion and above all freedom and personal human rights...not this lieing enslavement - that instead of empowering the people - dis-empowered them.

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the UK does not give automatic citizenship to those who are christian. bad comparison.

do christians receive special real estate privileges in the UK as opposed to those who are not christian? bad comparison, again.

does the UK call itself a christian state? not really. but israel, formally defines itself as a "jewish state".

your attempt to show similarity between the two, failed.

It's always about the Jews for you. See I mistakenly assumed your point was a general one - that atheists are somehow precluded from supoorting certain nations due to entaglements between their governments and religion. But really your main goal is to strive to undermine Israel in the eyes of whomever. You craft your worldview purely in light of this goal. You couldn't really care less about the logic of your argument. In the end it's all about the Jews.

My argument stands. You, as is often the case, show your singleminded hatred of a certain ethnic/religious group. Except of course for your many close Jewish friends. I assume you have those in copious amounts and they all agree with you.

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It's not unusual for some to invoke the Cliff's Notes version of Jefferson, when his writings and times are readily available for inspection. The "separation of church and state" evolved over time (especially in Connecticut).

Meh - the founding fathers have generally been relagated to one-dimensional quote sources.

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It's always about the Jews for you. See I mistakenly assumed your point was a general one - that atheists are somehow precluded from supoorting certain nations due to entaglements between their governments and religion. But really your main goal is to strive to undermine Israel in the eyes of whomever. You craft your worldview purely in light of this goal. You couldn't really care less about the logic of your argument. In the end it's all about the Jews.

My argument stands. You, as is often the case, show your singleminded hatred of a certain ethnic/religious group. Except of course for your many close Jewish friends. I assume you have those in copious amounts and they all agree with you.

so you reduce yourself to a DoP type response. he does the same thing when he can't counter facts.

DoP has been shown to be a hypocrite for proudly declaring himself to be an atheist when he supports the creation of a jewish state. you have come in here and have failed to counter that point.

i suppose all you two have left are useless posts like above.

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Christains approve of torture because they approved of the torture of Christ...as if when you torture someone your sins are forgiven - that's because Christianity became a cult of blood and pain..what the hell is that all about - They are no different that some Ican lunitics rolling a human head down a pyramid and sipping on the blood like parasites - Do you think Christ approved of torture?

Did he approve of his own torture? Certainly NOT - so those that do approve are common blood thristy pagan idiots..and not of the Christ state of mind...Look at the Italian Mafia - the right of passage for a new and up comming Capo - is to kill a man - not the toughest and meanest in the village - but the most innocent and pure - It goes back to the killing of Christ - they believe they suck up the power of the good -----which is really quite evil...Christians that approve of evil - are now offically outcast - and exiled into the ether - who needs occultist sadist to inhabit the temples? Not I or any thinking person.!!

Further more while I am at it I may as well explain the occult practice of Catholic and Islamic boy rape - this is also some strange pagan idea that you take the power and soul and life of the child and absorb it - supposedly to extend your own life and youth - It does not work - these so-called Christians are nuts...to have ten thousand cases of child abuse by the Vatican can only be called secret policy - hidden - or commonly called the occult.

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Christains approve of torture because they approved of the torture of Christ...as if when you torture someone your sins are forgiven - that's because Christianity became a cult of blood and pain..what the hell is that all about - They are no different that some Ican lunitics rolling a human head down a pyramid and sipping on the blood like parasites - Do you think Christ approved of torture?

i don't really see this more than the manufacturing of consent. most of these people are extremely ignorant and this is why they are easily influenced. as it can also be seen in radical islam as well, religion can be molded into whatever you want and pretty much anything can be sold as acceptable and for the good of your group. even torture which goes against the true message of christianity (or islam or judaism)

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Umm... I am constantly amused when such simplisme is ascribed to Jefferson. The man also grew up in a Christian society and considered christianity, sans its miracles, as the moral (and thereofre political) backbone of this nation - he wrote a "miracleless" bible to make Christian morality more paletable to those who did not appreciate the finer points of Christian mysticism. many of Jefferson's writings dealt with how to best build and preserve the moral bedrock upon which a republic can be built and he easily drew on Christian mores to write his rpescription. That is unless you care to argue that Jefferson also wanted a wall between morality and state.

Well, 700 Club propaganda aside, Jefferson was also aware of the problems with theocracy in Europe and the abuses caused by the early theocratic colonial governments. It doesn't matter whether he thought Jesus was a nice guy, he used his influence to keep religion out of government, even opposing military and congressional chaplains.

The U.S. Constitution was deliberately written as a godless document; and that hasn't escaped the notice of religious leaders over the ages, who tried four times to have Christian amendments added to the Constitution to correct that oversight by Jefferson and the other Founding Fathers. The Treaty of Tripoli in 1797 contained a clause where he specifically expressed the point that the new nation was not a "Christian nation:

ARTICLE 11.

As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tripoli1.htm

Too bad the conservative talkingheads on radio and FoxNews didn't cover this when they took history class in their Christian academies!

And of course, and this may be hard to believe, vut Jefferson was but one of many founding fathers. And lo and behold, they differed in their views - on some issues terribly so. (I should add, waxing hyperbolic myself, that seldom mentioned is that Jefferson argued for a very limited franchise - he being a Virginian Gentleman that is not surprising -, believed that revolutions where an appropriate and constructive way to change government on a regular basis (how French of him, and had the cockmamie idea that untried farmers with harvest to worry about could put up a fight against trained professional armies)

Jefferson, Patrick Henry and others, cooled their revolutionary rhetoric later on though, after they saw how badly idealistic revolutionaries can go bad when the French Revolution devolved into the Reign of Terror. They also had to incrementally increase the role they envisioned for the Federal Government because of the gridlocks between competing state governments early on.

Now, please direct me to serious Christian wiritngs that call for the establishment of Christian theocracy (with public stoning). I look forward to you providing support for your seeming hyperbolic assertion.

Do a search term for "theonomy" and choose any source you like to see how the Christian Reconstructionist Movement that is trying to take over mainstream churches from within, views life in an ideal Christian nation. For a quick bullet-point definition of this movement:

Dominionism & Dominion Theology are derived from Genesis 1:26 of the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament):

"Then God said, 'Let us make man in our image, in our likeness and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth and over all the creatures that move along the ground.'" (NIV)

Most Christians interpret this verse as meaning that God gave mankind dominion over the animal kingdom. Dominion theologians believe that that this verse commands Christians to bring all societies, around the world, under the rule of the Word of God.

Theonomy (Greek for "God's Law") includes the concept that "God’s revealed standing laws are a reflection of His immutable moral character and, as such, are absolute in the sense of being nonarbitrary, objective, universal, and established in advance of particular circumstances (thus applicable to general types of moral situations)." 6,7 Thus, each of the 613 laws given to Moses and recorded in the Pentateuch (the first 5 books of the Hebrew Scriptures) are binding on people of all nations, cultures, and religions forever, except for those laws which have been specifically rescinded or modified by further revelation.

Christian Reconstructionism arose out of conservative Presbyterianism in the early 1970's. Followers believe "that every area dominated by sin must be 'reconstructed' in terms of the Bible." 1

http://www.religioustolerance.org/reconstr.htm

further:

Christian Reconstructionism

A version of Dominion Theology that is a relatively extreme aspect of the Christian Right and effectively theocratic. It is chiefly an American movement spelled out by Armenian-American R. J. Rushdoony (1916-2001) in the 1960's and 1970's and calls for a nation's laws and society to be based on the Ten Commandments as applied through the interpretations of a religious elite to everyday situations; necessarily, it rejects democracy and any form of secular political philosophy as an ideal foundation for government. Christian Reconstructionism's ideal society would include the elimination of public schools, the denial of full citizenship to non-Christians, and the death penalty for adultery, performing or having an abortion, blasphemy, homosexuality, heresy, and even persistant rebelliousness against ones parents, with the definitions of these terms and offenses being crafted by the religious elite.

http://www.religiousrightwatch.com/2006/10...tian_recon.html

and:

Invitation to a Stoning

Getting cozy with theocrats

http://www.reason.com/news/show/30789.html

They are largely a stealth movement, with two of the largest publishers of Christian education material for homeschooling. They are teaching the next generation of Christian fundamentalists, so over time, the apocalyptic "Left Behind" philosophy of waiting for Jesus to come back and fix things, will be replaced with a Dominionist strategy of creating Christian government:

Christian Reconstructionism's ultimate moment may or may not arrive; however it has had tremendous influence as a catalyst for an historic shift in American religion and politics. Christian colleges and bookstores are full of Reconstructionist material. The proliferation of this material and influence is likely to continue. Christian Reconstructionism is largely an underground, underestimated movement of ideas, the rippling surface of which is the political movement known as the Christian Right. http://www.publiceye.org/magazine/v08n1/chrisre4.html

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i don't really see this more than the manufacturing of consent. most of these people are extremely ignorant and this is why they are easily influenced. as it can also be seen in radical islam as well, religion can be molded into whatever you want and pretty much anything can be sold as acceptable and for the good of your group. even torture which goes against the true message of christianity (or islam or judaism)

And what pray tell is the true message of christianity?

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