Canada's flawed military policies

[jdobbin]

Yeah, well Canada is about the 6th largest country in NATO population wise. But much of our spending is making up for lost time, for equpiment we should have bought ages ago.

Canada is the 9th largest member.

What Canada is doing is, as it has done from time to time, trying to make up for some of the rustout the military has suffered over years of neglect by buying a bunch of stuff at once. In addition, Afghanistan has been a godsend to the military as neither the Liberals nor the Tories dared deny the troops the gear they needed. The bad publicity was simply too dangerous politically. So both governments have been buying and rushing equipment over to Afghanistan to equip what is basically a small regiment over there with decent gear. As a result, they are fairly well equipped over there.

Equipment purchases started increasing dramatically in 2000, years before Afghanistan. They have increased in every year after that.

As for over here... nope. The new, modern, functioning LAVs and armored vehicles, as well as everything from electronic and communications gear to flack jackets, are in too short supply to hand them out to everyone. So the troops here can't really use the stuff. They have to go over there and learn it on the job. I'd love to see someone do a comparison of the gear a unit in Afghanistan has with what a unit in Canada has.

The same problem plagues Britain and the U.S. as recent news reports indicate.

What I think is that the military should be properly equipped, especially, at the moment, the infantry, and that includes all of the infantry, not just the ones who are in Afghanistan right now.

Military spending already exceeds Cold War spending by 3%. How high do you want it to go?

In addition, we have so few infantry, and they are so overworked, that we desperately need at least several thousand more infantry.

Once again, how much more do you want spent?

The Liberals did nothing but cut the military. As they did nothing but cut health care. They didn't care about either. It wasn't until the Conservatives became a threat, and stories began appearing in the media about our troops dying in Afghanistan for lack of proper gear that the Liberals began to purchase some equpment and ship it over there. That was not because they cared about the troops, but because they cared about bad publicity.

The numbers say something different. Spending increased in 2000 and in every year after. The Tories were no real threat back then.

[Sabre Rider]

Bring in combat air patrol and air superiority and it gets even worse....but the Taliban is lacking in this capability.

For now anyways, but then the Mujahideen didn't have Stingers to begin with at the beginning, until some kind souls decided to give them to them by the bucket loads. Now if some kind soul, say Russia looking for a little payback for instance were to secrecy supply the Taliban with some 9K38 Igla's or Chinese made FN-6's, how long do you think the AC-130 missions in the area would last?

I will investigate how many Iltis jeeps the Americans started with.

Save you the trouble....zero, they had and still are using Hum V's which just as prone to getting blown apart by IED's and RPG's as were the Iltis, the only difference is, Hum V's make bigger and easier to hit targets.

Edited May 4, 2009 by Sabre Rider

[Smallc]

Save you the trouble....zero, they had and still are using Hum V's

They must not have been good enough for our special ops soldiers since according to rumours, the JTF 2 replaced them with the Jackal MWMIK.

[bush_cheney2004]

For now anyways, but then the Mujahideen didn't have Stingers to begin with at the beginning, until some kind souls decided to give them to them by the bucket loads. Now if some kind soul, say Russia looking for a little payback for instance were to secrecy supply the Taliban with some 9K38 Igla's or Chinese made FN-6's, how long do you think the AC-130 missions in the area would last?

As long as the Americans wanted them to, given risk and reward.....plus countermeasures. American forces can/do operate with LZs in uncontrolled areas.

Save you the trouble....zero, they had and still are using Hum V's which just as prone to getting blown apart by IED's and RPG's as were the Iltis, the only difference is, Hum V's make bigger and easier to hit targets.

The Itis jeeps were not even worth the cost shipping them home. G-wagon starts to close the gap, but will never compete with rotary wing airlift capability. IMO, Canada learned this lesson the hard way.

[Army Guy]

No, they are ex-US military helicopters. Also, they are armed, as are the Griffons that we sent.

while true we have purchased 6 Ch-47D models for stop gap measures, these where to get refitted and upgraded into F models once the intial new F models where recieved...

Strong rumors have it now they will be sold to help pay off the New F Models....

And rumors within parliment is the entire deal will be shelved, as they think there will not be a requirement for Chinnoks after the Afghan mission is reduced in 2011....

[Army Guy]

Canada in 2007 was the 13th greatest spender on the military and within NATO was the 6th greatest spender dollar for dollar.

Spending next year year will be 40% higher than in 2000. It started rising each year from 2000 on and now in adjusted dollars is more than during the Cold War.

While your numbers are correct, what is misleading is what our DND actually pays for, compared to other nations....when you take a look at the DND budget break down you'll see that there is not much wiggle room in there for anything like major equipment purchases....or for that matter the spare parts we need to keep the entire fleet of vehs running...

[jdobbin]

While your numbers are correct, what is misleading is what our DND actually pays for, compared to other nations....when you take a look at the DND budget break down you'll see that there is not much wiggle room in there for anything like major equipment purchases....or for that matter the spare parts we need to keep the entire fleet of vehs running...

Then your issue is with how DND operates and not its budget.

[Alta4ever]

Then your issue is with how DND operates and not its budget.

And which government set up and expanded the bureaucracy under which tour military has to operate and waste its precious funds?

Right I know rhetorical question. Liberal governments have done such a great job of shackling our military.

[jdobbin]

And which government set up and expanded the bureaucracy under which tour military has to operate and waste its precious funds?

Need I remind you that the Tories have been government since 2006. What has your party done to change how DND runs?

Right I know rhetorical question. Liberal governments have done such a great job of shackling our military.

And your party is doing something about it? What exactly?

[Army Guy]

Then your issue is with how DND operates and not its budget.

Both actually....And as much as i'd like to pin it on one party, i can't...Canadians as a whole are to blame....There has been alot of talk on tax relief for the major car companies and how they do operate tax payers demanding major cuts and choices be made....but why can't we demand the same level from our own government....regardless of how poorly our governments do with our tax dollars....mistakes on thier part just mean higher taxes later....

[jdobbin]

Both actually....And as much as i'd like to pin it on one party, i can't...Canadians as a whole are to blame....There has been alot of talk on tax relief for the major car companies and how they do operate tax payers demanding major cuts and choices be made....but why can't we demand the same level from our own government....regardless of how poorly our governments do with our tax dollars....mistakes on thier part just mean higher taxes later....

Demands are made on the government. If DND is not spending money well then it is a DND problem and you should blow the whistle.

As far as the budget goes, a few more upticks and Canada will be way over what we were spending in the cold war and getting closer to what we spent in World War II. How big do you want the budget? Should it be the biggest line item in the budget?

[Army Guy]

Demands are made on the government. If DND is not spending money well then it is a DND problem and you should blow the whistle.

Name one Canadian that is NOT aware that the government wastes bils of our tax dollars....What i find funney we can make demands to the major car companies...that they change before we lend them more....and yet as tax payers we can't find the couage to demand that our government changes the way we do business....

As far as the budget goes, a few more upticks and Canada will be way over what we were spending in the cold war and getting closer to what we spent in World War II. How big do you want the budget? Should it be the biggest line item in the budget?

Cut out all the crap that really has no DND fuction, such as emergancy preparedness, have foreign affairs pay for the Afghan conflict and all other deployments etc etc etc...bils of dollars out of DND's budget gone to other agencies...

SAR effort, is not a military project, it's a coast guard one....but if you think the Military has got problems....can you imgine trying to outfit the coast guard for SAR....

Fisheries patrol, here is another great example of a mis used military resource....can't imgime giving this to say fisheries, or hey the coast gaurd....

Comparing our cold war spending is unfair...we where not pulling our wieght there as well, so it would be easy to surpass our spending there...

the Budget needs to be large enough to allow DND to grow, into what we don't know until there is a white paper produced....the last one was in 97 i think and it was basically thrown out after it was written....but without direction what do you want us to be...

I think if we as Canadians did our research and found out just how bad the state our military is in, it would be the biggest line item in the budget....it's in critical condition, and it does not look good....

[Rue]

That's right...if you don't figure out what you want to be when you grow up, somebody else will do it for you.

I agree with Argus and what you said. For years Canada coasted on depending on the U.S. armed forces to protect it and so gutting its armed forces to non operational levels including its Coast Guard.

We can't have it both ways. We either maintain a proper Coast Guard and Armed Forces to enforce our sovereignty up North and in regards to Fisheries and coastal security or we shaddup when we create a vacum that forces the Americans to pick up the slack.

Canada like many nations in the past relied on the US Armed Forces, in particular the US Navy and overseas US military posts to protect its business interests but at the same time avoiding the political backlash of having its own military presence overseas letting the Yanks take all the shit. Not just Canada but all of Europe and many other countries.

Now that Obama is taking a conciliatory and cooperative apprach, its time we put up or shut up. If we don't want the U.S. acting unilaterally, then its time to work with the Yanks and reduce some of the pressure on them our complacency has placed.

I think Canada must have a strong Navy, Coast Guard and Air Force because of the geographic size of the nation and today's shrinking globe and ease of movement of people requires we have properly trained armed forces whether they be military or para-military to deal with environmental, health and terrorist risks.

[jdobbin]

Name one Canadian that is NOT aware that the government wastes bils of our tax dollars....What i find funney we can make demands to the major car companies...that they change before we lend them more....and yet as tax payers we can't find the couage to demand that our government changes the way we do business....

You can make that change every time you vote. Will you vote Tory next election? If you do, you are part of the problem. They are the ones putting money into the car companies.

Cut out all the crap that really has no DND fuction, such as emergancy preparedness, have foreign affairs pay for the Afghan conflict and all other deployments etc etc etc...bils of dollars out of DND's budget gone to other agencies...

I suggest you run for office then since you seem to know exactly what needs to be done.

SAR effort, is not a military project, it's a coast guard one....but if you think the Military has got problems....can you imgine trying to outfit the coast guard for SAR....

Fisheries patrol, here is another great example of a mis used military resource....can't imgime giving this to say fisheries, or hey the coast gaurd....

The military has been used for a variety of purposes in every country. They are used for drug interdiction, search and rescue and for disasters. This is not just true for Canada but for all militaries.

I imagine that if those areas were removed from the DND responsibilities that money would be removed as well.

Comparing our cold war spending is unfair...we where not pulling our wieght there as well, so it would be easy to surpass our spending there...

I suppose we could go back to World War II spending. We are starting to get closer on that number. How much higher do you want to go?

the Budget needs to be large enough to allow DND to grow, into what we don't know until there is a white paper produced....the last one was in 97 i think and it was basically thrown out after it was written....but without direction what do you want us to be...

I think if we as Canadians did our research and found out just how bad the state our military is in, it would be the biggest line item in the budget....it's in critical condition, and it does not look good....

So you think it should be more important than every other item in the budget? What would you cut in the budget to support military spending? Pensions? Health? Transportation?

[Army Guy]

You can make that change every time you vote. Will you vote Tory next election? If you do, you are part of the problem. They are the ones putting money into the car companies.

Really just the tories....or di the liberal party sign up on that as well...

I suggest you run for office then since you seem to know exactly what needs to be done.

Is that why you asked me, so you could set me up for that come back....good call

The military has been used for a variety of purposes in every country. They are used for drug interdiction, search and rescue and for disasters. This is not just true for Canada but for all militaries.

I imagine that if those areas were removed from the DND responsibilities that money would be removed as well.

Perhaps we should a little into our past history when these where actually funded depts, cut to the bone and those resopnsibilties given to the military....but yes they should be stripped along with the funding and made into thier own depts....

I suppose we could go back to World War II spending. We are starting to get closer on that number. How much higher do you want to go?

Until our military is capable of some of it's basic mandates....maybe even as far as carring it's own, in regards to all these treatiers it's signed...

So you think it should be more important than every other item in the budget? What would you cut in the budget to support military spending? Pensions? Health? Transportation?

well if you can't defend them, it kind of makes them 2 and fiddle does it not....

[Argus]

Military spending already exceeds Cold War spending by 3%. How high do you want it to go?

different. Spending increased in 2000 and in every year after. The Tories were no real threat back then.

I don't really need to analyse the statistics to know this is total crap.

Cold war spending? You mean that we're spending more money than when the Canadian military was two or three times bigger? I'd really like to see how that came about, what accounting and statistical games you played in order to try and write that with something approaching a straight face.

But thanks for confirming that the old Liberal attitude (those dirty militarists get more money than they deserve anyway) is still alive and well in the Liberal Party.

[M.Dancer]

I seem to remember the cold war as being one of the worst times for the military.. I remember going on exercises when we didn't have enough blanks and other times when we were there voluntarily...meaning we wouldn't be paid as there was no budget.

The 70s right to the mid 80s were a very lean time...

[Sabre Rider]

I seem to remember the cold war as being one of the worst times for the military.. I remember going on exercises when we didn't have enough blanks and other times when we were there voluntarily...meaning we wouldn't be paid as there was no budget.

The 70s right to the mid 80s were a very lean time...

....as it has been, as it is, as it always will be........

Remember when the Cougars and Grizzles came out? The Defense Minister at the time swore that the Cougars were only going to be used as tank trainers, not in combat and that new Leopards were on their way...........come Bosnia and there were the Cougars filling in for our missing tanks.

No matter what era, no matter what Government, the Canadian Military always gets Rodgered without so much as a kiss first.

[Smallc]

No matter what era, no matter what government, people complain...and are never satisfied...with anything. You'd swear we were living in Somalia.

[jdobbin]

I don't really need to analyse the statistics to know this is total crap.

Cold war spending? You mean that we're spending more money than when the Canadian military was two or three times bigger? I'd really like to see how that came about, what accounting and statistical games you played in order to try and write that with something approaching a straight face.

The director of the Rideau Institute wrote the report in 2007.

Here is is.

http://www.policyalternatives.ca/documents...he_Cold_War.pdf

It was in all the media at the time as well and talked about on Parliament Hill where the Tories took credit for their part in spending from 2006 on.

But thanks for confirming that the old Liberal attitude (those dirty militarists get more money than they deserve anyway) is still alive and well in the Liberal Party.

Thanks for confirming once again that you don't care what the numbers show just so long as you can take your angry shots.

[Smallc]

The reality is, people are never going to have what they want. No one, in either the public or private sector, ever has all of the money they'd like to have available to spend. The reality is, we spend a large amount of money on defence..and that amount is only getting bigger. That is the reality....and all the complaints in the world don't change that fact.

Also, it's important to note that there may be more things included in the Canadian budget than in others (and I still question that...there is probably simply different things), large purchases are often (if not always) completely separate budget items and so almost the entire budget is available for operations and is not put to purchases. That means that the budget is actually even larger than it appears.

[Sabre Rider]

No matter what era, no matter what government, people complain...and are never satisfied...with anything. You'd swear we were living in Somalia.

or America, or England, or France, or Japan, or Singapore, or Italy, or Russia, or China, or Pakistan, or India, or......well I guess we wouldn't be human if we didn't find something to bitch and moan about all the time.....

[Smallc]

well I guess we wouldn't be human if we didn't find something to bitch and moan about all the time.....

Very true...my point was...we complain too much lol.

[jdobbin]

Really just the tories....or di the liberal party sign up on that as well...

Then I take it you won't vote for either next time.

Is that why you asked me, so you could set me up for that come back....good call

It is a serious proposition. If you do know what the answers are, you should run.

Perhaps we should a little into our past history when these where actually funded depts, cut to the bone and those resopnsibilties given to the military....but yes they should be stripped along with the funding and made into thier own depts....

Is that what the upper brass wants as well?

Until our military is capable of some of it's basic mandates....maybe even as far as carring it's own, in regards to all these treatiers it's signed...

And what size military will be required for that? You say to meet our basic mandates? Would that be a military of about 2 to 3 million people and a large chunk of our GDP devoted to military spending?

well if you can't defend them, it kind of makes them 2 and fiddle does it not....

Are we in that much danger of losing our country that we need a military the size of what we had in World War II?

[Sabre Rider]

Very true...my point was...we complain too much lol.

True enough, but back to military expenditures, the real question is not are we budgeting enough but rather are we getting value to money?

I would say that purchases of the newer C-130's to replace our current and well worn current fleet the answer is yes, as with purchasing the CH-45 Chinook heavy lift helicopters. Our Leopard 1's are also long past their due date, so getting the newer Leopard II's makes sense.

And we did get value for the money spent on the Halifax Class Frigates since the ships they replace were built back in the mid 50's and early 60's. Same with the Kingston-class coastal defence vessels which not only replaced the old Bay Class Sweeper and older Porte Class Gate Vessels, but improved the mission scope and ability of the Naval Reserves which crew them.

However we did not get value for money for the subs we brought, nor the Iltis Jeeps. And personally I don't think we got value when we replaced the FN-C1, FN-C2 and Sterling SMG's with the C-7 which is basically a Canadianized M-16. But then on this I am biased as I really liked the hitting power and feel of the FN and sheer nastiness of the Sterling and was never very fond of the M-16 aka the Jamming Jenny, it felt like a toy after using the FN for so many years.

And I really question the need to have purchased 4 C-177 Globemasters. Nice to have the airlift capacity, but I have to wonder if they are worth the purchase price along with their operational costs.

Edited May 4, 2009 by Sabre Rider