Unions Call for 'Buy Canadian' Policy

[blueblood]

Just give the government some revenue? Depends on how they're applied, I would think. If we had some damfool politicians impose a green tariff on a country simply for not supporting Kyoto then that would be something murky and political. Public and international support would become a dog's breakfast.

I'm talking about simple unfair competition. A Canadian steel producer has certain costs that limit his ability to compete. If we have imposed laws upon him that force him to spend extra dollars to produce his product then he can only lower his price so far. Below that and he loses money. He's no longer in the game.

These "green" costs are not trivial. They can add up to more than the actual profit on the end product! Why do you think that China and Russia are in absolutely no hurry to enact and ENFORCE anti-pollution laws? They COUNT on that competitive edge!

A green tariff specifically and only applied to such countries and only in the amount of what it costs our players to produce should not simply end up in the government's coffers. Why would it? There is a natural patriotism to favour domestic sources. The problem is when the domestic sources have such a higher price that one just can't justify paying it. If the pricing was level then a tie would likely go to the domestic source.

We have some strange idea in North America that if something is out of sight and mind then it isn't happening or is not a danger, like Toronto refusing to deal with its own waste and shipping it by hundreds of truckloads daily to sites in Michigan, while turning down solutions closer and more "in the open" like that of Kirkland Lake. We INSIST that our steel plants be cleaner and totally ignore what happened with imports. We ban lead in paint on children's toys and then allow countries like China to swallow up virtually the entire market. We never bother to inspect what they ship us and then act surprised when we find out our children have been sucking on lead!

Only once the problem becomes public does anyone care or any government protection agency get involved.

We're so flippin' naive we accept inspection of such issues from the SOURCE as gospel! If it has an inspection stamp from the originating country we accept that as sufficient to allow it to be sold in Canada.

We deserve what we get, I guess. We used to have the silliness of unilateral disarmament supporters. Now we have the silliness of unilateral "greens".

Canada has an advantage over other countries in steel, manufacturing, etc. It's called freight rates. That is an advantage Canada has always enjoyed and can pay its workers better. However, the ratio got placed out of whack, and now it is cheaper to spend a fortune on freight and buy the product from elsewhere. It's time to take a paycut.

It's for that reason, Australians have a much easier time exporting grain to Asia than Canada does.

[madmax]

Let's say that Canadians can buy plastic water bottles for $1.50 with international trade because they come from Bangladesh.

Plastic Water Bottles are made in Canada. The company which holds the contract is a General Machine Shop with CNC.. Plastic Moulding etc. They make the bottles for most of the major brand names in Canada and the US.

Ok, its not a "General Machine shop, because it is beautiful, and spotless inside.

Your Water is $1.50 now, and the reason you are charged $1.50 is the same reason why some people will pay $3.00 for the SAME water bottle at a community event or in some extreme cases $7.50 at a trade show.

The price of bottled water will be whatever the market will bear.

[HistoryBuff44]

This law would not or could not force everyone to buy their stuff. Where do you get that from? Oh you made up great. This law would make so the government of Canada would buy from with in Canada where are workers and the people who pay taxes are. Don't be angry because the Unions say it should be done. Don't be blinded by your hate for organized labour this would benefit all Canadians. The union speech is a whole different discussion.

Im not blinded by hatred of unions... you made that up. I see what these unions have done plain as day and i dont believe it is beneficial to canadians at all. driving up wages is not beneficial, making it virtually impossible to fire useless people or people that simply arent needed at a position is not beneficial. I expect the government of canada to get the best value for my tax dollar, not piss it away on some union wage driven up project that will cost more just because its made here in canada, so that they need to tax me more for more money because they bought here.

[Moonbox]

Canada has an advantage over other countries in steel, manufacturing, etc. It's called freight rates. That is an advantage Canada has always enjoyed and can pay its workers better. However, the ratio got placed out of whack, and now it is cheaper to spend a fortune on freight and buy the product from elsewhere. It's time to take a paycut.

The freight rate advantage only helps if we're dealing with markets very close to us. If we're competing with China for business abroad, it dissapears quickly. Another thing to note is that only certain goods enjoy freight advantages. Small and easily packaged things (computer hardware, textiles etc) are cheap to ship even halfway across the world. Canadian producers can't compete with that.

I'm all for Free Trade, but only if it's also Fair Trade. Things from China need to be tariffed.

[HistoryBuff44]

We need unions and good union jobs. They are already making concessions. They are not a liability to prosperity, but an asset. Good wage earners spend, they pay high income tax rates and do not impose a drain on social services. Pull out all the union jobs and watch our treasury evaporate. This really would create an economic social Darwinism.

And no I'm not a Godless Socialist. Just a realist.

No we dont need them. You say your a realist, if that were true you would know that they are only now making concessions because of the REALITY that they would all be out of a job because the companies they work for will be bankrupt and out of business.

those companies would still need and use workers whether they were unionized or not, yes they would probably earn less money but then i completely disagree with the wages they make. there have been lots of articles lately stating the average amounts they make, its rediculous for what they need to do.

[madmax]

I expect the government of canada to get the best value for my tax dollar, not piss it away on some union wage driven up project that will cost more just because its made here in canada, so that they need to tax me more for more money because they bought here.

If its made in Canada and Not Union made, your ok with it? That would be roughly 74% of the Industrial Workplaces.

I guess our government should ditch those crackberries.

[madmax]

China poised to be world’s largest auto market

Slump in U.S. sales has make country catch up quicker than anticipated

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29022484

Yes, we are seeing Mexico displace Canada in Auto Production. (That happens when Plants are closed here and opened there)

China is displacing Canada as the US #1 trading Partner.

And China is becoming the Largest Auto Market in the World, moving the US into 2nd fiddle status.

[HistoryBuff44]

If its made in Canada and Not Union made, your ok with it? That would be roughly 74% of the Industrial Workplaces.

I guess our government should ditch those crackberries.

Im ok with it if the same thing cant be purchased for a better price and similar or better quality elsewhere. I dont care if its Union made or not, just if the price is higher because of union labor costs are high by comparison to other potential candidates. The same goes for non union items as well.

[bjre]

Yes, we are seeing Mexico displace Canada in Auto Production. (That happens when Plants are closed here and opened there)

China is displacing Canada as the US #1 trading Partner.

And China is becoming the Largest Auto Market in the World, moving the US into 2nd fiddle status.

The reason is Harper has broken good Canada-China relationship.

Canada started business with China earlier than most other industrial countries, now it has only a very small portion in China's import/export amount.

Actually, there are still large business opportunities in China now, if Canada ignores it, other countries will profit on it.

[madmax]

It would also make Canadian and US car companies much more competitive with Toyota et al.

1) There are No "Canadian" car companies.

2) US car companies, probably none worse then GM have major bloated Bureacracies, thus I believe they have announced 10,000 White Collar Jobs on the chopping block. With that will go many tech people, engineers, bean counters, design etc.

3) Ford had lowered its wages to $21 entry.

4) Any across the board, wages, benefits and pension concessions will be mimicked by all other Auto Producers in Canada. It happens in Pattern Bargaining, and wherever the chips fall, the Japanese follow suit.

5) You live in KW and yet you have no idea the trouble that Toyota is really in. They are excellent at PR, and have done a better job then the other Auto Manufacturers.

6) Honda, has got rid of all there TEMP AGENCY staff, who made significantly less money then the regular production workers, and they will NOT receive the benefits of Government retraining programs, Adjustment Services or other legislated benefits that Honda employees will receive upon termination. REGARDLESS of how many years of service, some with as many as 7 years. Same for many contract workers.

7) I much prefer a Successful Toyota operation in Woodstock then a Failing Operation of anymake anywhere.

8) Don't be fooled by Auto Manufacturers crying poor. Bankruptcy is a state of mind, and if they wish to use this tool, they will, if they can move forward without it they will. None of which will change the longterm prospects for where there future production will be. It is Toyota with the most recent investment in Auto Production.

9) US Car companies will be using Union and NON Union assembly plants in Mexico and China.

10) Processess and marketing makes car companies successful.

The consumer is the final decision maker.

Oh, and what about those Union made parts in Toyotas and Hondas..... Never happens.... if you wish to believe that.

[Jack Weber]

We need unions and good union jobs. They are already making concessions. They are not a liability to prosperity, but an asset. Good wage earners spend, they pay high income tax rates and do not impose a drain on social services. Pull out all the union jobs and watch our treasury evaporate. This really would create an economic social Darwinism.

And no I'm not a Godless Socialist. Just a realist.

Here,here PT...I an so sick of the RtW crowd thinking that if there were no organized labour,somehow the standard of living would stay the same in our country.What a load of right wing,anti-labour drivel!.

This skilled tradesperson,who is unionized,is'nt burning the world up in the wage department,but I shudder to think what my standard of living might be under anh "Open Shop" policy.If they think it is so good,simply look at the standard of living in the mid-west and deep south where RtW is the law.

If they think RtW is such a great idea,they should look at the history of how RtW came about.It has absolutely nothing to do with "Choice for workers".

As far as "Buy Canadian" and industrial policy for this country,I'll give an example that I have intimate knowledge of.

Until the late '80's,this country had a national shipbuilding policy.That was done away with under Mr.Mulroney.In the intervening time,the industry in Canada has basically disappeared.These were all high paying,skilled trade jobs.Every industrialized nation in the world has a comprehensive shipbuilding policy.In the US,they have something called The Jones Act.There's a reason for this,and it's not to gladhand unions...It's because these jobs are high paying jobs that keep skilled workers in Canada.It also has a symbiotic realtionship with the steel industry,and all that that entails.I worked at the last Canadian shipyard on the Great Lakes.We could build ships faster,with higher quality,but we still lost contracts to China,Korea,and,POLAND!!!

Why?

Subsidization,or lack thereof...

[madmax]

The reason is Harper has broken good Canada-China relationship.

Canada started business with China earlier than most other industrial countries, now it has only a very small portion in China's import/export amount.

Hate to break the news to you. Jean Chretian was about 20 years behind the US move into China. Harpers relationship with China, has NO bearing on our ability to maintain US manufacturing in Canada, when US operations wish to move their production to China.

We will have no industry left to worry about production exports to China, beyond their need for basic resources.

Our relationship with China may have been good, but it was not productive, and if anything help create conditions where we export STEEL to China, and yet miraculously have a finished product coming back, for less money then we can send the raw steel to a production operation 60 minutes away.

Its one good reason that hundreds of Machine shops, of all kinds, some found in the barns on farms, have no work. It is another good reason why anyone training in Toolmaking, Machining, and CNC is likely to leave school and join the unemployment line with 10s of thousands of skilled tradesmen who were trained in the 90s recession.

Somehow, China is able to find ways to produce goods and dump steel in the US, as well as import steel, cheaper then the our US operations in Canada.

Canadas Imports from China are nothing to sneer about. It was to gain access to Chinas Export market that had Canadian Business men drooling. It was to access to Low cost Engineers, Technicians, CNC operators etc, and stable government, that attracted US capital to China to produce goods, to import into Canada.

The Concept of Selling to this market from our shores hasn't been the top priority of ANY trade delegation.

Any operations selling machinery to China, and I know of many Machinery manufacturers, they sold there equipment to Chinese industries in spite of the Canadian Government and it had more to do with US connections and joint capital operations for new facilities.

Now those same pieces of equipment are CLONED, and manufactured in China.

Some of the greatest manufacturing games in China is to hide the final product, so that it isn't cloned overnight.

Farm out a products parts to numerous companies so that they have no idea the use of the finished product. Thus they can clone a part, but not know its purpose,service or implementation.

Trade agreements with China, rarely engage intellectual property enforcement.

[M.Dancer]

Until the late '80's,this country had a national shipbuilding policy.That was done away with under Mr.Mulroney....Why?

Besides commissioning 12 Frigates.....how did Muruney do what you said he did? Not build 24?

[blueblood]

The freight rate advantage only helps if we're dealing with markets very close to us. If we're competing with China for business abroad, it dissapears quickly. Another thing to note is that only certain goods enjoy freight advantages. Small and easily packaged things (computer hardware, textiles etc) are cheap to ship even halfway across the world. Canadian producers can't compete with that.

I'm all for Free Trade, but only if it's also Fair Trade. Things from China need to be tariffed.

That depends on what side your on. Importing anything from anywhere involves shipping and handling. Canadians compete based on quality (which is lacking from canadian made products these days, except for commodities), Canadian producers can compete, it would involve dropping their wages to below the point where it is cheaper to work here than ship product.

I think stuff from China is already tariffed. We just buy it anyway. My Canola takes around a 20% tariff going to China.

If Canada were smart, we'd be looking at getting into the energy game. Energy is helping put manufacturing out of work with its higher competitive wages. Let our dinosaur manufacturing die already. I think the unions have to go, it isn't the 1900's anymore and working conditions are excellent.

[Jack Weber]

Besides commissioning 12 Frigates.....how did Muruney do what you said he did? Not build 24?

The PC government of the day decided to stop subsidizing the construction of merchant fleet vessels.That's where the money is in the shipbuilding industry.The military vessels are a different matter.Every other industrialized nation subsidizes construction of its merchant fleet.We don't.And now,we almost can't,even if we tried.

By the way,the ending of the subsidies aided in closing the Port Arthur yard in Thunder Bay,closed the Collingwood yard,and,has the Port Weller Dry Docks on the ropes.

[M.Dancer]

The PC government of the day decided to stop subsidizing the construction of merchant fleet vessels

I should hope so...should we subsidize our truck industry too..?

Now are you saying that the US subsidizes their freightor building industry?

[punked]

I should hope so...should we subsidize our truck industry too..?

Now are you saying that the US subsidizes their freightor building industry?

Are you saying they don`t?

[M.Dancer]

Are you saying they don`t?

They do and they don't. To get the subsidy you must committ the vesels to the merchant marine which makes them a defacto wing of the US navy. It isn't like you ca build a freightot in Carolina and falg it in liberia and crew it in Manila...those that do do it without being drafted to carry army trucks or subsidies

[Jack Weber]

They do and they don't. To get the subsidy you must committ the vesels to the merchant marine which makes them a defacto wing of the US navy. It isn't like you ca build a freightot in Carolina and falg it in liberia and crew it in Manila...those that do do it without being drafted to carry army trucks or subsidies

Not entirely correct...In the US there is a thing called "The Jones Act", or"The Jones Law".It basically states that the bidding process for building a ship has to go through ALL the available yards in the US before it can go out for international tender.Invariably,an American yard comes up with the best price.We could have something like this here as the merchant fleet is mostly over 35 years old and is in need of replacing.CSL,through the likes of Mr.Martin,has seen to it that nothing liike that happens.Most CSL ships are built in Shang Hai,China.However,Algoma Central Marine and Upper Lakes Shipping all sail on the Great Lakes and could have conversions,forebodies,or,entire ships(bow to stern) all built in Canada.There is no mechanism in place to have this work done here.

[Oleg Bach]

Does anybody in Canada make a real garden rake? - One that does not come apart on first use like the imports? Here is the problem with buying Canadian - we might not have any product at this point - since the trade with China swamped our manufacturing sector ----- I wonder how many companies that existed fifteen years ago are no more ------ so the new policy should not be "buy Canadian" It should be "lets make things again in Canada" You can't buy what does not exist --- There should be a stimulus program that searches out all of the manufacturing people that went tits up because of corrupt trade agreements - and these men should be resurrected and re-financed.

[August1991]

Not entirely correct...In the US there is a thing called "The Jones Act", or"The Jones Law".It basically states that the bidding process for building a ship has to go through ALL the available yards in the US before it can go out for international tender.Invariably,an American yard comes up with the best price.We could have something like this here as the merchant fleet is mostly over 35 years old and is in need of replacing.CSL,through the likes of Mr.Martin,has seen to it that nothing liike that happens.Most CSL ships are built in Shang Hai,China.However,Algoma Central Marine and Upper Lakes Shipping all sail on the Great Lakes and could have conversions,forebodies,or,entire ships(bow to stern) all built in Canada.There is no mechanism in place to have this work done here.

In your private life, should you be forced to buy only Canadian made products?

Why should government purchasers be forced to "buy Canadian" while you are free to buy from foreigners? What makes a government purchase different from a private purchase?

If you think the federal government should follow a "Buy Canadian" policy, then we should logically force all Canadians to only "Buy Canadian" too.

A "Buy Canadian" policy is equivalent to forbidding Canadians from owning a Mazda or a Volvo. Taken to its logical conclusion, you would never eat in a restaurant. You should only deal with people in your own family and always eat at home.

-----

If the US or any foreign government restrict how people trade, is that reason for the Canadian government to apply similar restrictions? Of what benefit is that to us?

Finland had a large trade with the Soviet Union yet the Finnish government wisely did not imitate the Soviet restrictions on trade.

Edited February 12, 2009 by August1991

[Peter F]

Why should government purchasers be forced to "buy Canadian" while you are free to buy from foreigners? What makes a government purchase different from a private purchase?

A government puchase isnt 'private' but a citizens purchase is. How I spend my money and on what is nobody's business. How the government spends and on what is most certainly everybody's business.

A "Buy Canadian" policy is equivalent to forbidding Canadians from owning a Mazda or a Volvo. Taken to its logical conclusion, you would never eat in a restaurant. You should only deal with people in your own family and always eat at home.

Yeah, right. Government spending and private spending are exactly the same thing. Ha!

If the US or any foreign government restrict how people trade, is that reason for the Canadian government to apply similar restrictions? Of what benefit is that to us?

As Mulroney said: Jobs Jobs Jobs!

Finland had a large trade with the Soviet Union yet the Finnish government wisely did not imitate the Soviet restrictions on trade.

You bet your sweet-libertarian arse they didn't! Finland knows how to survive with a world-power as a neighbour. They know better than to tell commies to kiss they White behinds. The commies said trade and Finland traded.

Finnish companies do not buy ships from non-Finnish ship yards by the way. They understand the benefits of employment.

[blueblood]

A government puchase isnt 'private' but a citizens purchase is. How I spend my money and on what is nobody's business. How the government spends and on what is most certainly everybody's business.

Yeah, right. Government spending and private spending are exactly the same thing. Ha!

As Mulroney said: Jobs Jobs Jobs!

You bet your sweet-libertarian arse they didn't! Finland knows how to survive with a world-power as a neighbour. They know better than to tell commies to kiss they White behinds. The commies said trade and Finland traded.

Finnish companies do not buy ships from non-Finnish ship yards by the way. They understand the benefits of employment.

God dammit, more socialist bullshit...

When the government spends my tax dollars, it's mine and everyone's business to ensure those dollars get spent the most efficiently. In other words, high priced union crackpots are told to go piss up a rope.

Finland is a democracy because they told the commies to kiss their White behinds. There are other places Finland traded with than the communists. It doesn't say much about socialism when a superpower such as the USSR has to import from a tiny country like Finland. The countries that trade are the ones that run the show. Countries that adopt protectionism tend to have big problems.

For the good of the nation, Unions should disband, high price labor is killing the manufacturing sector.

[Peter F]

God dammit, more socialist bullshit...

When the government spends my tax dollars, it's mine and everyone's business to ensure those dollars get spent the most efficiently. In other words, high priced union crackpots are told to go piss up a rope.

Ah, we agree! Isn't that nice? I think its nice. As for high priced union crackpots - management never tells them to piss up a rope. They dare not. Management co-opts them instead.

Finland is a democracy because they told the commies to kiss their White behinds. There are other places Finland traded with than the communists. It doesn't say much about socialism when a superpower such as the USSR has to import from a tiny country like Finland. The countries that trade are the ones that run the show. Countries that adopt protectionism tend to have big problems.

and countries that don't cowtow to the superpower next-door tend to have big problems too.

For the good of the nation, Unions should disband, high price labor is killing the manufacturing sector.

Oh yes, Unions should volountarily disband. But I'll vote against it.

[August1991]

Government spending and private spending are exactly the same thing. Ha!

How are they different?

What is the difference if the government spends your money on your behalf, or if you spend the money yourself? More importantly, why would you want to restrict purchases?