Michael Hardner Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 PTory, This unique stimulus is supposed to be an investment in Canada and Canadians. If it's an *investment* then that means Canada will be allocating money to operations that are viable. Manufacturing, in many cases, doesn't meet that criteria. The military has bought knives from one Nova Scotia company for more than 50 years. To save a few bucks Peter MacKay cancelled the contract and is now buying knock offs from China. Soldiers are complaining that the handles keep falling off. This is unacceptable. Your argument here isn't against buying foreign goods, but buying substandard ones. Do you really think that anybody is going to say 'don't buy one of those substandard Japanese or German made vehicles !'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 When something is overpriced, people shop for something else.... The law wouldn't say you can't buy something else. It would say that if the government can buy something in Canada for more they should instead of buying that thing from another country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 Today, unions are what's wrong with our economy. They promote a false sense of entitlement that is not linked to economic sustainability. Unions don't have anywhere near the clout they had in the past and that's not a bad thing. I wish I could say the same about the corporations that abandoned our economy for other countries and that pressured governments here and abroad to encourage a race to the bottom. This has done far more to undermine the sustainability of our domestic and global economy not to mention the environment. Our need to still grow our economy in the absence of a manufacturing sector morphed into a reach for yield that had nowhere to go but into the financial world of make believe. That of course has now collapsed. In addition to restoring the ecosystems that provide the natural capital that underwrites our economy I think our stimulus bucks should be spent on restablishing our manufacturing base and making us more self-sufficient. I'd also invest some of this money on modernizing our democracy to the extent that citizens have far far more binding inputs into the policies that lead away or towards economic and environmental sustainability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 It would say that if the government can buy something in Canada for more they should instead of buying that thing from another country. That would be a stupid law that would encourage gouging. I had a product to sell and the Government had to buy it from me, I would in a New North York minute raise my price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmax Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 I think there should be a call to urge the Unions to make their posturing "made in Canada" Good Point Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 eyeball, I think our stimulus bucks should be spent on restablishing our manufacturing base and making us more self-sufficient No way. Labour costs for manufacturing are lower elsewhere, and that's where manufacturing will be done. If you try to force a planned economy on Canada then you are effectively building a wall around us. I find it kind of hypocritical (not of you, eyeball, but others) that there is so much concern over auto makers, when many people seem to be content to shop at WAL MART and buy foreign made goods themselves. The new economy is here, let's gently help the big 3 into their graves, and get their workers doing something else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmax Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 (edited) I will continue to buy only Canadian made Maple Syrup.....from Quebec no less, since they make the best.Just doin' my part. Tasty... MAPLE SYRUP Maple syrup is a sweetener made from the sap of maple trees. In Canada and the United States it is most often eaten with waffles and pancakes. While I prefer to make pancakes. Waffles are made in Canada too You can support Canadian Manufacturing and food processing by buying waffles to put your maple syrup on. Food Manufacturing Waffles More Waffles Vancouver Waffles I used to tap my own trees. It sure seemed like fun as a kid. Edited February 10, 2009 by madmax Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 That would be a stupid law that would encourage gouging. I had a product to sell and the Government had to buy it from me, I would in a New North York minute raise my price. Almost every other government in the world has a law like that. Japan, France, US, China, Germany ect. It doesn't encourage gouging because these businesses have to compete on a world scale. Let's say we have to buy knives for our military, there is a place in NS that has was we need for 100,000 dollars more then the place in China and they make a better quality product. Right now we say China has the lowest bid let's buy from them. If there was a law that said the government should buy in Canada when they can we could have got the Canadian Knives stimulated our own sector and kept that money in Canada. See that is the spirit of these laws. This is not a left wing Idea. Infact most governments who have passed these laws have been right wing. Don't look this as a Right vs Left issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 I agree. Let's start with the Canadian military. Mass layoffs in Canada because contracts went to Texas. Make the necessary alterations to our factory and keep Canadians employed. It's a no brainer. Serveral things wrong with this statement, one, those layoff's were planned well before the contract was put out, so the government decission has nothing to do with the lay offs....second this very company did not even bid on the contract, in fact no Canadian company did...Third the contract has specifically call for an already proven veh, in service with a NATO that have over 2 mil kms on the design.. The military has bought knives from one Nova Scotia company for more than 50 years. To save a few bucks Peter MacKay cancelled the contract and is now buying knock offs from China. Soldiers are complaining that the handles keep falling off. This is unacceptable. One of the major problems in our military is buying equipment MADE IN CANADA, if we are not going to put dollars into military industry then we as Canadians should stop whinning when these contracts go else where...we can't have it both ways... In the past our military has gone to great lengths buying Canadian, or Made in Canada, equipment like our LSVW, italian design made by western star in BC....this veh has got to be the worst military veh in the world, poor design, poor materials, poorly made...it is junk...I'd rather go into battle with a russian lada with the roof cut off....with over 8 different vehs where tested the western stars veh placed dead last, however the government wanted it because it was made in Canada, the military had to take the veh down to the US desert in order for it to pass even the simplist requirements....I think when buying equipment it should be the best on the market, not the cheapest or how many canadian jobs will be created....the Lives of our soldiers should be placed first... This is one of many military projects that have failed...not many Canadian military success storys with made in Canada equipment....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 No way. Labour costs for manufacturing are lower elsewhere, and that's where manufacturing will be done. If you try to force a planned economy on Canada then you are effectively building a wall around us. Costs for protecting the environment and human rights are usually lower elsewhere too. The new economy is here... Yeah, and just ook at what happens when you try to force a planned economy on an entire planet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 One of the major problems in our military is buying equipment MADE IN CANADA, if we are not going to put dollars into military industry then we as Canadians should stop whinning when these contracts go else where...we can't have it both ways...In the past our military has gone to great lengths buying Canadian, or Made in Canada, equipment like our LSVW, italian design made by western star in BC....this veh has got to be the worst military veh in the world, poor design, poor materials, poorly made...it is junk...I'd rather go into battle with a russian lada with the roof cut off....with over 8 different vehs where tested the western stars veh placed dead last, however the government wanted it because it was made in Canada, the military had to take the veh down to the US desert in order for it to pass even the simplist requirements....I think when buying equipment it should be the best on the market, not the cheapest or how many canadian jobs will be created....the Lives of our soldiers should be placed first... This is one of many military projects that have failed...not many Canadian military success storys with made in Canada equipment....... Speak the issue of knives. You think the NS ones were inferior to the ones made in China? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmax Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 (edited) This is one of many military projects that have failed...not many Canadian military success storys with made in Canada equipment....... Army Guy... Why can the American Military receive quality products from Canadian Manufacturers, but the Canadian Army Cannot??? Many of the most successful manufacturers in Canada make military products. And these enterprises are doing very very very very very well amidst this meltdown. So what gives??? Edited February 10, 2009 by madmax Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 Speak the issue of knives. You think the NS ones were inferior to the ones made in China? Do you think they use trucks, or knives more often? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 Do you think they use trucks, or knives more often? So you think it was right to buy the knives outside of Canada? This is one example of the buy Canada Clause. You act like it isn't simple thing. If the truck is not equal and they can not find one in Canada which is then even with a Buy Canadian clause they could buy outside of Canada. LOOK AT OTHER COUNTRIES for an example of this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonbox Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 Madmax I think (he can correct me if I'm wrong) he's talking about a specific instance where we bought Canadian and it was garbage. It's true that we do business with the military, but when you're facing giant american competitors with the benefits of massive scale and their own government is the world's biggest customer, it would be a little redundant for us to have a competing and independant industry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonbox Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 So you think it was right to buy the knives outside of Canada?This is one example of the buy Canada Clause. You act like it isn't simple thing. If the truck is not equal and they can not find one in Canada which is then even with a Buy Canadian clause they could buy outside of Canada. LOOK AT OTHER COUNTRIES for an example of this. So....as a taxpayer I should be forced to pay for equal but more expensive goods made in Canada? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 the truck is not equal and they can not find one in Canada which is then even with a Buy Canadian clause they could buy outside of Canada. But in the past they didn't and that's the point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 So....as a taxpayer I should be forced to pay for equal but more expensive goods made in Canada? Yes because that money contributes to our GDP not to China's. Just sit and think about it for a minute. For every dollar we spend in a Canadian company it comes back to us our people, and our government and makes our country better. For every dollar that flys out the window it does not. I am not against free trade this isn't what this is, I am for a fair playing field. This is what all other governments do but we are some how smarter for play 50 000 dollars less on a 5 million dollar contract to China? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 But in the past they didn't and that's the point. How is that the point there was no Buy Canadian in the past. So I don't see your point I see you maybe arguing against the law as it is now. So I welcome you to my team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HistoryBuff44 Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 what a hypocritical load of garbage from these union heads. They spent the last 20 years driving up wages to rediculous levels and then they try to force everyone to buy canadian? why so they can drive wages up even higher? they have done as much to destroy manufacturing as any government has done in this country. there is no place for unions in today's Canada, they are far more of a liability to prosperity than an asset. PS did you notice in the pic from G&M the one union head wearing that nice gold watch... must be hurtin times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 After reading 3 pages of posts I'm a bit surprised that so far there are 2 points that I thought obvious that no one mentioned. The first is, it's all very well to "Buy Domestic" but how do you get around the idea that "If you won't buy my stuff why should I buy yours?" Trade is a 2 way street. One of the problems many Canadian manufacturers have complained about for years is that countries like Japan and China cheerfully sell their stuff here but put up barriers to receiving imports from Canada. If we favour our own local stuff too much then why would we expect our export situation to get any better? The other point is that we don't seem to pay attention to whether trade is a level playing field or not. For instance, Canadian steel has to abide by anti-pollution laws that add to the end price per ton of steel. China and Russia appear to have no anti-pollution laws at all. So they automatically have a price advantage over our domestic makers. Shouldn't we impose "green" tariffs equal to the extra costs we impose on our own industries? Why is it ok for OTHER countries to pollute the earth? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 what a hypocritical load of garbage from these union heads. They spent the last 20 years driving up wages to rediculous levels and then they try to force everyone to buy canadian? why so they can drive wages up even higher? they have done as much to destroy manufacturing as any government has done in this country. there is no place for unions in today's Canada, they are far more of a liability to prosperity than an asset.PS did you notice in the pic from G&M the one union head wearing that nice gold watch... must be hurtin times. This law would not or could not force everyone to buy their stuff. Where do you get that from? Oh you made up great. This law would make so the government of Canada would buy from with in Canada where are workers and the people who pay taxes are. Don't be angry because the Unions say it should be done. Don't be blinded by your hate for organized labour this would benefit all Canadians. The union speech is a whole different discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmax Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 After reading 3 pages of posts I'm a bit surprised that so far there are 2 points that I thought obvious that no one mentioned. It was briefly glossed over in another thread. But the points are more valid in this thread. Never too late to highlight reality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 WB, Green tariffs are fine, but they don't actually clean the planet, they just provide government some revenue, dont' they ? Also - others mentioned trade wars on this thread, which I believe addresses your 'Why should I buy your stuff' point. eyeball, Costs for protecting the environment and human rights are usually lower elsewhere too.QUOTE The new economy is here... Yeah, and just ook at what happens when you try to force a planned economy on an entire planet. Protectionism isn't any guarantee of environmental or human rights. These things happen as a result of engaging with other countries. Of course, you're right that other countries have worse records than us in some of these areas but we're not clean either. Generally, it's better to be involved with other countries. As someone who works in resources, I would think you would want less barriers to your products. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 How is that the point there was no Buy Canadian in the past. So I don't see your point I see you maybe arguing against the law as it is now. So I welcome you to my team. There has always been a political consideration with military procurement. Doesn't work well for them and it probably won't work well for Canadians in general. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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