Online voting increases voter turnout minimum 30%

[Molly]

... so ones eligibility to vote is in the hands of Mom and Canada post... and the 'interweb'.

Yup. Uh-huh.

[Mr.Canada]

I hope that home based electronic voting will never come into being until the technology is in place that can guarantee that the person voting is the person registered for that vote, until that time no ty.

[CAMP]

The real beauty of the paper ballot is that it can't be messed with in any meaningful way. Even if someone tries, there are those pesky slips of paper that can be reviewed, and reviewed and reviewed. There is simply no more secure way to do it.

Anyone here ever have a login problem, or a power outage, a crash, a virus, or info stolen, or lost to someone elses keystroke? Happens every day.

The US uses quite a bit of electronic voting, and has had consequent questions about the validity of votes. The 'machine voting' used in some local municpalities has also been fraught with security/accuracy problems.

Sorry, but the technology has a long, long, long way to go to be up to snuff, even under 'show up to vote with our protected machines' terms. It's

i miles

away from having stay-at-home voting up to viable option status.

So everyone who does banking online should stop right now according to you because it's not very secure then.

I beg to differ.

Funny how many people kick and scream as they are inevitably dragged into the 21st century!

People it's going to happen!

[CAMP]

I have not been in a situation when the polling station was not a short walk away from my place. Weather is weather - if I have to go to work in it I can go to a polling station.

You are just making exuses. Voting is not a service provided by a business - it is right and duty of citizenship and a fundemental feature of our society. If anyone refuses to vote unless it is convenient then then should not be voting,

Really now...perhaps you should move out to a rural area and see how far many Canadians have to drive far to get to a polling station.

I think it's you trying to find excuses not to move into the 21st century. Another kicker and screamer!

[Riverwind]

So everyone who does banking online should stop right now according to you because it's not very secure then.

All banking transactions are carefully tracked. If there is a breech it is possible to go back an figure exactly how it happened and reverse any frauduant transactions. It would not be possible to do with an anonymous electronic vote.

People it's going to happen!

I would not bet on it given the universal negative reaction on this forum from people of various political stripes.

Voting is not a government service. It is a right, a priviledge and a duty.

[DrGreenthumb]

All banking transactions are carefully tracked. If there is a breech it is possible to go back an figure exactly how it happened and reverse any frauduant transactions. It would not be possible to do with an anonymous electronic vote.

I would not bet on it given the universal negative reaction on this forum from people of various political stripes.

Voting is not a government service. It is a right, a priviledge and a duty.

I wouldn't trust the Conservative party not to figure out a way to cheat the system and steal the election, G W Bush style.

[Moonbox]

Bush cheated now huh? Your posts are so worthless here it's not even funny.

[Smallc]

Really now...perhaps you should move out to a rural area and see how far many Canadians have to drive far to get to a polling station.

I vote in a rural area (at my principle residence). I'm sure that I can drive the five minutes to vote. In other countries people wait in line for hours just to vote. In other countries, people fight and die for the simple right that so many of us take for granted.

Like i said. I think I can drive five minutes.

[madmax]

If people are too lazy to get off their butt and go to a polling station then they should not be voting.

Ditto.

[Progressive Tory]

I hope that home based electronic voting will never come into being until the technology is in place that can guarantee that the person voting is the person registered for that vote, until that time no ty.

I have to agree. No system is fool proof, but the physical act of going to a polling booth is almost ethereal. You can't explain it but somehow being in a line-up with people exercising their democratic right, just makes you feel good.

That doesn't mean I'm not open to suggestions about getting more people engaged. If the student living away from home wants to vote without travelling hundreds of miles to do so, then maybe it can be set up for them similar to online banking. Just don't like it as a broad-base solution. Too high a margin for error or manipulation.

[madmax]

Voting is not a government service. It is a right, a priviledge and a duty.

Just to clarify. I agree with this statement and I was wondering if you are for or against Public Funding of Political Parties. I would hope you would be against it. If voting isn't a government service, you have created another level of logic against the public funding of political parties.

Would this be a reasonable assumption???

[Wild Bill]

Wow you have an active imagination. But I guess that could happen. I doubt an 18 year old is going to put up with a father like that for too long. Besides... online voting could be done by an 18 year old privately away from home... father is none the wiser... if he asks... I guess sonny boy would say... already done dearest father....lol.... ways around everything isn't there.

Now if you want to talk about thoughtless votes... try explaining why many people just don't bother to vote anymore, because they are fed up with the system as it is. The Quality of a vote... now there's a new one. Every vote has merit quality is your mindset... I'm sure if your a Liberal then you feel a Conservative vote is poor quality or visa versa.... no relevance... sorry .... now try and make a quality post next time.

"Try and make a quality post next time"? If you're going to be so arrogant and elitist as to insult me for questioning you then I suggest to go over to rabble.ca. Those kind of manners are popular there. If you're just going to be insulting then I will put you on my 'ignore' list in the control panel and not play with you anymore.

Could happen? Are you unaware that there are people of male dominated cultures here in Canada? If women are forced into arranged marriages why do you think one would need an 'active imagination' to think such a thing could happen?

You mentioned if I was a Liberal that I would feel a Conservative vote is of poor quality. I could comment on the quality of YOUR post! You put words in my mouth and then insult me for what I never said!

You are castigating people for not "getting with the computer age". I was there when the first computer chips were invented! I sold Intel, Texas Instruments, Motorola, Zilog and others. I sold the very first personal computer, the Osbourne. I was there when Intel got the design win for the IBM-PC. I was pre-DOS using CPM, let alone Windows!

Go teach your granny to suck eggs!

A quality vote is a CONSIDERED vote! If someone won't get off their butt to go to a polling station then the odds are that making a considered, educated choice is not that important to them. Perhaps they should spend less time with their Xbox or Wii.

See? I can be insulting too! What has that accomplished? Do insults change truth?

One of the cornerstones of our system is the secret ballot. That means secret from everyone! Including members of your family. Hell, most times the local parties will cheerfully give you a free ride to the polling station! We are not all bachelors fresh from university living by ourselves.

Unless someone comes up with a method of electronic voting that addresses these concerns then I believe we would be paying too high a price for simple expediency.

[madmax]

I vote in a rural area (at my principle residence). I'm sure that I can drive the five minutes to vote. In other countries people wait in line for hours just to vote. In other countries, people fight and die for the simple right that so many of us take for granted.

Like i said. I think I can drive five minutes.

I know in some rural areas of my riding it is a 20 minute drive to the polling booth. There are places that exist that are much closer but the government makes some strange choices some years. That said, when living rural, it is a given that many activities are going to be 5 minutes or more away, and voting is no different.

[August1991]

The real beauty of the paper ballot is that it can't be messed with in any meaningful way. Even if someone tries, there are those pesky slips of paper that can be reviewed, and reviewed and reviewed. There is simply no more secure way to do it.

Anyone here ever have a login problem, or a power outage, a crash, a virus, or info stolen, or lost to someone elses keystroke? Happens every day.

The US uses quite a bit of electronic voting, and has had consequent questions about the validity of votes. The 'machine voting' used in some local municpalities has also been fraught with security/accuracy problems.

A point should be made here. The US uses other voting mechanisms since Americans must vote for many candidates and many propositions. A paper ballot is simply unweildy. In Canada, we typically have a simple choice among three or four candidates and a paper ballot is fine.

The irony of course is that this thread argues that democracy requires a higher voter turnout but then doesn't address the issue of whether we should broaden what voters select.

For example, maybe we should vote for judges and crown prosecutors in Canada? Why don't we choose in elections our senators or our police chiefs? If our cities want to borrow money, maybe they should obtain permission in a plebiscite?

This arguably would make Canada more democratic, but at the expense of simple paper ballots.

Edited January 20, 2009 by August1991

[Progressive Tory]

Really now...perhaps you should move out to a rural area and see how far many Canadians have to drive far to get to a polling station.

I think it's you trying to find excuses not to move into the 21st century. Another kicker and screamer!

There's another problem with the 'faceless' voter. I spend a bit of time looking around at message boards across the country, just to get an understanding of different political views. I was quite shocked when I read a story on a Western Canadian aboriginal site, discussing the last election. I won't give you the name of the party that allegedly perpetrated this fraud, but the story went like this:

Apparently someone working in this candidate's office, drove with some others into the Reserve and offered a bottle of alcohol and a $ 5.00 KFC gift certificate, for anyone who would go with them to the polling booth and vote for their candidate. I thought it had to be a joke but there were many responses validating this story or telling other similar tales.

However, in the back of my mind, I said that just because they paid them to vote, there was no guarantee that the recipient of the rewards, voted for their candidate.

However, under an electronic system, what would prevent them from setting up computers in a room; paying for votes, and making sure they cast the right one? I could see it being abused.

Edited January 20, 2009 by Progressive Tory

[Molly]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/06/magazine/06Vote-t.html

I found this to be an interesting article. One of the points it seems to make and re-make, without really meaning to, is that the only machines worthy of much trust are those that produce, and/or store a paper record of ballots- the best being the sort that just optically scans , and then keeps, paper ballots marked directly by the voters.

What is being proposed by our revolutionary is an even greater reliance on the ethereal than is practiced in the US.

By the way, Bill, your point about secrecy/privacy in balloting is not only accurate, but huge. I would have asserted agreement but for seeing it as an obvious, very important criticsm. Apparently that problem is not so bovious to some, though, so here's 'Hear! Hear!'

[CAMP]

"Try and make a quality post next time"? If you're going to be so arrogant and elitist as to insult me for questioning you then I suggest to go over to rabble.ca. Those kind of manners are popular there. If you're just going to be insulting then I will put you on my 'ignore' list in the control panel and not play with you anymore.

Could happen? Are you unaware that there are people of male dominated cultures here in Canada? If women are forced into arranged marriages why do you think one would need an 'active imagination' to think such a thing could happen?

You mentioned if I was a Liberal that I would feel a Conservative vote is of poor quality. I could comment on the quality of YOUR post! You put words in my mouth and then insult me for what I never said!

You are castigating people for not "getting with the computer age". I was there when the first computer chips were invented! I sold Intel, Texas Instruments, Motorola, Zilog and others. I sold the very first personal computer, the Osbourne. I was there when Intel got the design win for the IBM-PC. I was pre-DOS using CPM, let alone Windows!

Go teach your granny to suck eggs!

A quality vote is a CONSIDERED vote! If someone won't get off their butt to go to a polling station then the odds are that making a considered, educated choice is not that important to them. Perhaps they should spend less time with their Xbox or Wii.

See? I can be insulting too! What has that accomplished? Do insults change truth?

One of the cornerstones of our system is the secret ballot. That means secret from everyone! Including members of your family. Hell, most times the local parties will cheerfully give you a free ride to the polling station! We are not all bachelors fresh from university living by ourselves.

Unless someone comes up with a method of electronic voting that addresses these concerns then I believe we would be paying too high a price for simple expediency.

Well Wild Bill, sorry if I offended you.

Some on here assume because your able to have many more people vote that would use electronic voting that they would not vote wisely. That is just an asumption with no basis.

As far as male dominated cultures are concerned.. well I guess we have some of that. So I ask what's to stop their wives from even showing up then. Obviously if they are that controlling they most likely would say stay home and watch the kids. Just another excuse.

An online vote is still a secret ballot vote. It is private and secure.

The truth is we will have online voting in the near future ... no stopping it.

Oh and just joking Bill... I got you beat... I programmed PDP11's for IBM long before PC's even existed... chances are I can call you sonny boy... hehehe

[madmax]

If you're going to be so arrogant and elitist as to insult me for questioning you

You should be used to "New" Posters, trying to set an agenda without criticism.

I don't see the need to be arrogant and elistist to insult you. Most of us insult you without the arrogance

Seriously your points are valid, and I think it is wrong for a new poster to just jump all over people because they have reservations about Online voting.

Unless someone comes up with a method of electronic voting that addresses these concerns then I believe we would be paying too high a price for simple expediency.

I agree.

[eyeball]

So everyone who does banking online should stop right now according to you because it's not very secure then.

I beg to differ.

Funny how many people kick and scream as they are inevitably dragged into the 21st century!

People it's going to happen!

Its pathetic isn't it. I'm afraid you won't get very far advancing democracy with this bunch.

The thing I look forward to with online voting is the opportunity to vote a lot more frequently on virtually every issue just like our representatives do. Things like climate change policies or whether to send troops abroad could easily be put to public referendum. Voting on a range of proposals all at once would be no more difficult or insecure than electronically filing a GST or tax return which could also be filed and sent by snail-mail for those who prefer the old ways.

Just like we do with filing taxes we should make registering to vote mandatory. That's pretty much guaranteed to increase voter turnout closer to 100%.

Perhaps the way to sell this idea is to put it in more comforting old fashioned concepts that simpler folks can understand. Democracy should be viewed as being like the hand of God manifesting itself through our collective act of voting. We place great faith in the invisible hand that's working in our economy why not untie the other hand from behind God's back and let it be felt throughout our democracy as well?

[CAMP]

Its pathetic isn't it. I'm afraid you won't get very far advancing democracy with this bunch.

The thing I look forward to with online voting is the opportunity to vote a lot more frequently on virtually every issue just like our representatives do. Things like climate change policies or whether to send troops abroad could easily be put to public referendum. Voting on a range of proposals all at once would be no more difficult or insecure than electronically filing a GST or tax return which could also be filed and sent by snail-mail for those who prefer the old ways.

Just like we do with filing taxes we should make registering to vote mandatory. That's pretty much guaranteed to increase voter turnout closer to 100%.

Perhaps the way to sell this idea is to put it in more comforting old fashioned concepts that simpler folks can understand. Democracy should be viewed as being like the hand of God manifesting itself through our collective act of voting. We place great faith in the invisible hand that's working in our economy why not untie the other hand from behind God's back and let it be felt throughout our democracy as well?

Well said. Like anything new there will always be opponents to change. They try and find every excuse and possible dream senerios of corruption. Paper ballot walk in voting has many ways it could be compromised also. There is a human factor that sorts out spoiled ballots, whole boxes known to be lost. etc.

I could sit here and dream up even more scenerios, but why. It's obvious that online voting will happen and in fact I can tell you it is well under way in provicial election circles. The advantages are exactly as you speak, and I know of a party that is well under way in establishing registration to use online voting in a powerful way in the future. In the future you will see more Independent candidates and parties. Eventually proportional representation will prevail and partisan politicians will be history. Thank god.

[Wild Bill]

Well Wild Bill, sorry if I offended you.

Some on here assume because your able to have many more people vote that would use electronic voting that they would not vote wisely. That is just an asumption with no basis.

As far as male dominated cultures are concerned.. well I guess we have some of that. So I ask what's to stop their wives from even showing up then. Obviously if they are that controlling they most likely would say stay home and watch the kids. Just another excuse.

An online vote is still a secret ballot vote. It is private and secure.

The truth is we will have online voting in the near future ... no stopping it.

Oh and just joking Bill... I got you beat... I programmed PDP11's for IBM long before PC's even existed... chances are I can call you sonny boy... hehehe

PDP-11? Perhaps you do have me beat! All I ever did with a PDP-8 was to write a simple program to make the bell ring!

However, would I have you trumped if I said that my granny was named Babbage?

We may have online voting soon for things like voting within a party membership but we are still some years from it being used for federal and provincial elections. You state that it is private and secure but not HOW it is so!

I don't know where you live but if you are in Toronto you would be well aware that the number of women who would NOT be private and secure while voting at home could be in the tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands! Not every neighbourhood is the same as where you grew up.

I would agree that it would be convenient. So what? That still doesn't address the problem of secrecy. Or security. With a paper ballot, you always can have a physical, audited recount. We both know that software is prone to hacking. Particularly any GOVERNMENT RUN software!

Hell, every time we pick up the paper we hear how some nitwit dumped a few cartons of confidential tax records on the sidewalk, or hacked into a government database. Do you expect us to trust them with the electronic votes during an election?

Your enthusiasm reminds me of the words of a Motorola engineer who gave us disti salespeople a training session one evening. It was the late 70's and he told us "Within 5 years there will not be a single vacuum tube made or sold! Solid state will have replaced everything!"

I just smiled. He had no idea of all the applications out there. Even 5 years later 10 kw was the limit in output power for a solid state AM radio transmitter and even then it used lower powered modules in parallel. Any higher power or higher frequency like FM or television still required tubes.

Audio never gave tubes up! Not just hifi audiophiles who prefer vacuum tubes but musicians. Most professional guitarists won't use a solid state amp if you put a gun to their head, except for a few clean jazz cats. Why? Because electric guitar is SUPPOSED to be distorted! Transistor distortion is harsh, unlike that of tubes. It's just the physics of how the devices work.

There's still millions of dollars of vacuum tubes made and sold today. The industry where I sold that engineer's products has collapsed to a shadow of its former self, at least in Canada. Meanwhile, I make my living building and repairing music equipment like guitar amps...that use vacuum tubes!

As Gildna Radner often said "Details, always details!"

Online voting is no different. Someone will have to solve those details.

[Wild Bill]

The thing I look forward to with online voting is the opportunity to vote a lot more frequently on virtually every issue just like our representatives do. Things like climate change policies or whether to send troops abroad could easily be put to public referendum. Voting on a range of proposals all at once would be no more difficult or insecure than electronically filing a GST or tax return which could also be filed and sent by snail-mail for those who prefer the old ways.

I KNEW you were a Reformer!

That's straight from their Blue Book!

[85RZ500]

LOL, In this country, in 2009 and beyond, if we go with online voting we could have 110% voter turnout.

Thanks, but when there's no polling station or ballot box, when I can't present my face and backup ID to cast the ballot, the missus and I will go for some fowl at the Chalet instead.

Edited January 20, 2009 by 85RZ500

[punked]

LOL, In this country, in 2009 and beyond, if we go with online voting we could have 110% voter turnout.

Thanks, but when there's no polling station or ballot box, when I can't present my face and backup ID to cast the ballot, the missus and I will go for some fowl at the Chalet instead.

Let's admit the ID law they put in was a big failure causing a lot of students to lose their votes.

[eyeball]

I KNEW you were a Reformer!

That's straight from their Blue Book!

What about this part?

Perhaps the way to sell this idea is to put it in more comforting old fashioned concepts that simpler folks can understand. Democracy should be viewed as being like the hand of God manifesting itself through our collective act of voting. We place great faith in the invisible hand that's working in our economy why not untie the other hand from behind God's back and let it be felt throughout our democracy as well?

This should be in the Bible don't you think? I thought it was a pretty slick analogy coming from an atheist.